Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 12 Mar 2018, 7:53 pm

marksman wrote:I have seen this problem quite a few times and it isn't a problem with the firearm it is with the case being made small to fit all chambers
so when you fire thin brass eg: win when it forms to the chamber it will stretch and separate
the ppu brass is very good for not having this problem because of thickness
neck sizing is the go or be careful not to over fls or you create the problem again


I thinks that that's it. I will try to locate some PPU brass or ammo and work from there.

There are some interesting discussions on .303 headspace and the 'O' Ring Trick at these links:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paralla ... t3361.html

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56078&page=1

http://www.enfield-rifles.com/303-reloa ... page1.html
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Mar 2018, 8:13 pm

Feeler gauges. Lol. I'm now glad I kept them all these years. All makes sense.

Looks like your within spec.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by RoginaJack » 12 Mar 2018, 9:03 pm

As mentioned above by OldBloke, rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim (except in auto weapons, I think) and the overall length of the 303 should be 2.222(-.020).

Your fired cases are 2.240 - 2.243. When fired cases will expand to fit chamber (fired formed cases) but the increase in length is a concern. May be barrel poorly fitted.,

Also in the photo of the fired cases, it appears that the shoulder has moved forward, neck angle is different and sharper and neck length appears shorter and less tapper overall.

I go with Bentaz that the barrel is reamed to a 303 Ackley or epps but the fired cases should not separate or primers pop etc and I don't like that shinny ring near the base.
My suggestion is go see a gunsmith.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2018, 9:51 am

Yeah, looks like head space is OK but something else is going on inside the chamber. In any case, cases and primers failing is a sign you need stop what you are doing and let a smith take a look at it.

Could end up a sad story if you keep using it like it is.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 13 Mar 2018, 11:54 am

Oldbloke wrote: . . . let a smith take a look at it.


RoginaJack wrote:My suggestion is go see a gunsmith.


I don't disagree but finding one who has a thorough understanding of Service .303 chambers and Martini actions is likely to be a challenge.

That said, I'll try my local bloke and go from there.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2018, 1:48 pm

"finding one who has a thorough understanding of Service .303 chambers and Martini actions is likely to be a challenge."

Good point. But still think you should. Perhaps start another thread?
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by RoginaJack » 13 Mar 2018, 4:02 pm

yep, great idea, start with the local bloke and go from there. Will be very interesting to find out what's the problem. Keep us posted....

Cheers.
PS. Don't put anymore rounds through it..
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by N.Field » 13 Mar 2018, 4:49 pm

No, there won't be any more shooting with it until I get it sorted out.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Gaz52 » 18 Apr 2018, 11:39 pm

Anneal your brass and fireform them . Dont full lenth resize ,a Lee collet die works for me with my Martini Enfield . I have got 6+ reloads with crappy Rem brass and trailboss loads , PPU brass is the best i have found for .303 and my k hornet.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Diesel » 01 May 2018, 12:22 pm

Gaz52 wrote:Anneal your brass and fireform them . Dont full lenth resize ,a Lee collet die works for me with my Martini Enfield . I have got 6+ reloads with crappy Rem brass and trailboss loads , PPU brass is the best i have found for .303 and my k hornet.


Gaz is on track, I have a few .303 martinis and they all have sloppy chambers(for easy extraction under adverse conditions). The military never intended to reload the brass and it was thick to avoid separations. Also remember that the original load for these was only doing 1850fps which is very mild on cases.

The primer piercing is a bit of a worry but many winchester primers seem to do that at the moment, the firing pin needs to be checked for protrusion and a proper fit in the breech block, some were sleeved for .303 use, some were new and if someone has substituted an original .450/577 block without sleeving then pierced primers and junk through the action are an immediate result. Sometimes the pin has sharp bits on it from wear and these can be smoothed.

Once you fire a round it is fireformed to the chamber and should only be necksized from then on and it will be a perfect fit.

Get a smith to check pin protrusion, breechblock fit and condition. It is worth the money to know it is safe to fire. If he can't disasemble the rifle he doesn't know what he is looking at, many don't.

You CANNOT check headspace on a martini with feeler guages, it is a dangerous practice.

There are people on this thread that have no idea and shouldn't be posting. It is simple, if you don't have personal experience don't comment.

Martinis don't vent well despite being a very strong action, wear safety glasses.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 May 2018, 11:21 am

It's an ongoing issue with a lot of firearms made to fire military spec ammo. With the extreme variation found in specs, especially with the 303 British, case manufacturers opt for a slightly undersized case so one size should fit all. As mentioned by others posters, thicker brass works better (I prefer Hornady or Norma; expensive, but worth it in the long run). Depending on how much money and time you want to spend, you can cast the chamber, or get a competent gunsmith to do it, so you have a much better idea of what you're dealing with. Also you could get the barrel removed, re-chambered with a modern reamer, and that should tighten things up considerably. It will also solve any headspace issues at the same time. 303's shoot better with a slightly tight head space as well. Another option is have it re-chambered to 303 Epps........now that would be a definite improvement.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by snag » 02 May 2018, 8:46 pm

Looking at the photos of before and after firing, I think it's a bit of a stretch to put that down to sloppy chamber or head spacing. Those shoulders have moved significantly forward and really looks like some kind of improvement. Over the generations, everyone has had a go at adapting Martinis and not always to accepted wildcats. I'd seriously be casting the chamber and talking to a gunsmith. As an example, I picked up a Martini Cadet that was supposed to be a 25-20 - and shoots those rounds just fine - but the fired brass comes out as .255 Dean. Just goes to show that old guns are not always what it says on the label.
Just food for thought.
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Re: Martini Enfield Headspace Issues or ????

Post by snag » 03 May 2018, 5:57 pm

Of course, why would you bother casting the chamber when you already have fire-formed brass? Sometimes I amaze myself how often I overlook the obvious.......
The pen may be mightier than the sword, but personally I prefer the .30/30 Winchester.
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