Should I bother?

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Should I bother?

Post by Member-Deleted » 13 Mar 2018, 5:01 pm

Hi all,
One month ago I bought my first rifle after a 31 year hiatus from shooting and I could not believe the variety of choices. I didn't want to drop a lot of money initially so after a lot of researching and umming and ahhing, I parted with the princely sum of $569 for a Howa 1500 in .223 with a 1:9 twist 24" heavy barrel in a Hogue rubber stock and put a Nikon P223 3-9 x 40 scope on it. I tried a bunch of different brands and weights of ammo and happily for me it seems to love the Aussie Outback 69gr HPBT. At $11.99 per 20 I don't think I could reload much cheaper.

The last rifle I fired was a L1A1 SLR with peep sights (a fine rifle but no tack driver) so I don't have a lot to compare to. To me this Howa seems pretty good for a factory rifle straight out of the box and shoots pretty good groups off the sand bag at 100m and 200m. I have read elsewhere on the interwebs about different stocks and glass and triggers etc I could upgrade to improve accuracy and although that seems like a really fun rabbit hole to dive down, it's at odds with my current 'fun on a budget' mindset and defeats the reasoning for buying the Toyota Camry of centrefires in the first place. At the moment I think the best investment to improve my accuracy is simply more range time but a fellow at the range on the weekend suggested adjusting the torque settings on the action's screws as a 'must-do'. This got me thinking whether there were any simple and/or inexpensive adjustments or tweaks that I should make, or should I leave well enough alone?
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by sungazer » 13 Mar 2018, 5:32 pm

Not really any cheap magic wands for the rifle. I have the same one and have put it into a MDT chassis. Thats a great deal on the ammo the only factory ammo I have tried so far has been the ADI or OSA with the Sierra Blitzkings and Gamekings they go pretty well. They were about $1 each so even at that its close to what I can reload for. I havent found the rifle to be great in the accuracy department probably just under the moa with the loads I have tried so far. Its only early days so I hope I find something that impresses me. I didnt even try the factory stock I gave it a push and a squeeze and it was soft and spongy and moved a fair bit so went straight for the upgrade.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by albat » 13 Mar 2018, 5:41 pm

Just enjoy it, no need to go out spending a wad of cash trying to turn your rifle into something it isnt , they're good rifles out the box as you say and plenty accurate for hunting purposes if thats whats intended , you could probably half your group size if you spend time reloading though
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Daddybang » 13 Mar 2018, 6:11 pm

albat wrote:Just enjoy it, no need to go out spending a wad of cash trying to turn your rifle into something it isnt , they're good rifles out the box as you say and plenty accurate for hunting purposes if thats whats intended , you could probably half your group size if you spend time reloading though


+1 :drinks: spend ya hard earned on more rounds and enjoy shooting more. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Mar 2018, 6:11 pm

albat wrote:Just enjoy it, no need to go out spending a wad of cash trying to turn your rifle into something it isnt , they're good rifles out the box as you say and plenty accurate for hunting purposes if thats whats intended , you could probably half your group size if you spend time reloading though



I agree. But you should be able to still save a few bob reloading assuming you don't count your time. Personally reloading was initially only for cost saving but is now for the satisfaction of making your own fantastic ammo.

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Re: Should I bother?

Post by bigrich » 13 Mar 2018, 6:24 pm

heavy barrel 223 howa at that price is great value. lotta rifle for the money. cheap to shoot. if having a blast on the cheap is your goal you nailed it. see how you go for a while. collecting/shooting/hunting rifles can get addictive , you could get pulled into spending more than you intended to. mind you, a good cheap CZ/brno 22 lr or something similar would be a good addition ? maybe ? :thumbsup:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by in2anity » 13 Mar 2018, 6:37 pm

OI nuffin wrong with Camerys mate ;) :thumbsup: and a minute of angle is bloody accurate in my books
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by sungazer » 13 Mar 2018, 6:39 pm

bigrich wrote:heavy barrel 223 howa at that price is great value. you could get pulled into spending more than you intended to.


You are not wrong there I bought the same rifle and a 6.5 Creedmore barreled action that was $499 in the end I think I spent close to $3k and that was without any optics. It was just for the stock, butstock, grip, magazines, other assorted magpul bits, brass, projectiles, dies ammo boxes a rail some scope rings. it just went on and I was loving it. Then it struck me just how much I had spent and then how much I had spent in the last year. i thought to myself how selfish, how irresponsible really guilty that I didnt spend it on other things for the family. Then a few months later and a deal came up on a Nightforce Competition scope I grabed it, with the additional justification that I could take the scope off the target rifle and put that on the 6.5 and the Competition on the target rifle.

I have to stop spending I really feel addicted I must be I have just bought some new dies and 1000 projectiles that has to be the last of it for a good while. I need firearms Anonymous. :crazy: :cry: :unknown:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Gwion » 13 Mar 2018, 7:03 pm

Yes, it is a rabbit hole you would be diving into!

But.

There is one really cheap and easy upgrade to do and that is to get the trigger worked for $60 return post.

I bought my Howa Varmint 223rem 1:12 twist 2nd hand and someone had played with the trigger. It took a steam train to pull it and the safety no longer worked. Sent it to Glen Couglan after my first 20 rounds and have been very happy with it ever since. The rifle cost me $500 but I contacted the seller about the faulty trigger and he agreed to pay the cost of the trigger job. Very decent of him indeed.

My best groups with factory ammo were still only just under 1MOA but averaged probably just over. These rounds cost me between $16-23 per 20 and I found it difficult to get steady supply of the preferred feed locally and my budget didn't allow for bulk purchasing which around here doesn't really give you any significant benefit in cost per round so I had to keep buying what ever was available when I drove past the cheapest supplier which is about 1.5hr from home.

I bought reloading gear (rcbs kit $500) and developed some basic loads that brought my average groups down to about 0.7MOA at between 30-50c per round (using the brass from previous factory ammo), depending on bullet cost. That kit has paid for itself many times over considering i now also load 7mm-08 for about a buck a pop and factory feed is more like 3 bucks each.

I then went on to the font of information that is YouTube and discovered Nathan Foster's videos (ballisticstudies.com) on bedding and stabilising synthetic stocks. I bought his products, followed his video tutorials and stabilised the fore end and fully bedded the action which cost me about $70 for all the bits and about 4-6 hours of my time to do the job. This, along with testing torque settings on the action screws and getting more fussy with reloading brought my average group closer to 1/2MOA but still shooting 0.8s & 0.7s as well. All this was shooting in my paddocks at 100m.

Then I went and bought a Boyds stock in a lefty because I realised my right eye had deteriorated more then I had thought. Didn't need to stabilise that but did install pillars and fully bed it again. Another $70 and an afternoon or so of time plus the $200 odd for the stock.
Also added detachable mag bottom plate because changing mags while I was head shooting pests at 150m was easier when I didn't have to top load. Picked it up off another forum for the bargain price of $150 plus 2x AI 10 shot 223rem mags at something like $60 a piece.

Changed my powder to BM8208 from BM2 and got even more fanatical about my reloading and my bench practice technique improved so my average groups where now between 0.4-0.3MOA.

Then I pulled the 223 barrel off (or my smith did), opened up the bolt face and put a 7mm08 barrel on, got the action trued up at the same time, along with a cheap Zastava action (which was also trued up and fitted with the Howa varmint barrel frimmed to 18.5") in a left hander because shooting pests left handed with a right handed rifle is annoying.

Now I have a right handed Howa with a 7mm08 heavy barrel in a left handed stock and a Sightron scope on it (cost me about $1400 from memory) that shoots groups of 0.3MOA quite easily at 100yds which I use for prone shooting in F-class (can keep it into about 40mm at 300yds with out too much trouble, better on a still day) and a left handed 223rem stumpy varmint barrelled Zastava that will spit 50gn bullets into sub 1/2" groups at 100yd all day long.

Oh yeah... and I'm saving for a GRS stock for my Howa that is going to be between $1000-1200.

Moral of this story is: have fun shooting your Howa while you are just getting back into it then keep it as a knock about and buy a nice Sako or something! :lol:
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Mar 2018, 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 13 Mar 2018, 7:21 pm

BBSS,
Did this old codger say there was something wrong with your groups :?: If there is vertical dispersion, then I would check the bedding. Tweaking action screws without checking the bedding is not very thorough, IMO.
It is a pity that someone on the forum with a video camera could not do a tutorial-post, on how to do it.
Tell us about your groups mate before doing anything; besides, for all I know the threads might be locktighted and are probably still factory-tight :unknown:
Sorry to be vague.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by bigrich » 13 Mar 2018, 7:43 pm

Moral of this story is: have fun shooting your Howa while you are just getting back into it then keep it as a knock about and buy a nice Sako or something! :lol:
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Mar 2018, 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total
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that's pretty good advice IMO :thumbsup:

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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Daddybang » 13 Mar 2018, 8:34 pm

bigrich wrote:Moral of this story is: have fun shooting your Howa while you are just getting back into it then keep it as a knock about and buy a nice Sako or something! :lol:
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Mar 2018, 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total
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that's pretty good advice IMO :thumbsup:

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+1 no point having the prettiest gun in town if ya can't afford to shoot it when ya want!! :drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by marksman » 14 Mar 2018, 7:32 am

I think if you have to ask "should I" you shouldn't
you already find it good enough for what you want :drinks:
sure there are plenty of things you can do to wring out more accuracy
but do you want to, I think you are happy enough :thumbsup:

if it were me though I would do a trigger job and bed, if you do stabilise the forearm just use fibre glass bog to fill
problem is there will always be some twist in the wrist of the stock, would be better to change the stock to a bell and carson :thumbsup:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by sungazer » 14 Mar 2018, 8:48 am

I did a trigger job on it myself it cost $30 for a new set (2) of springs. I only used one of them preferring to keep the other. a bit of wet and dry but the way the trigger works its not really much benefit. I do like the two stage and I find it is not bad pretty crisp on the second stage esp with new springs and a bit of the limited adjustment they have.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Mar 2018, 8:49 am

bigrich wrote:mind you, a good cheap CZ/brno 22 lr or something similar would be a good addition ? maybe ?

Funny you should say that... I went back to the shop to stock up on that ammo and bought my second ever rifle, a used bolt action 22LR with nice timber stock and the bluing & bore in good condition. Just waiting on my PTA to come through, then I figure I will take it to the range and plink for fun while I let the Howa barrel cool.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Mar 2018, 9:07 am

Wm.Traynor wrote:BBSS,
Did this old codger say there was something wrong with your groups :?: If there is vertical dispersion, then I would check the bedding. Tell us about your groups mate before doing anything; besides, for all I know the threads might be locktighted and are probably still factory-tight :unknown:
Sorry to be vague.

No, the groups were alright and he was being quite positive and suggesting a few tweaks to eliminate the looser shots. There is not really much vertical stringing. When they spread a bit it tends to be horizontal which (I think) may mean I'm moving around too much behind the butt when resetting between shots. This photo is of one of the better 5 shot groups for me. I have plenty that are twice that size, spread left to right.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Gwion » 14 Mar 2018, 9:14 am

sungazer wrote:I did a trigger job on it myself it cost $30 for a new set (2) of springs. I only used one of them preferring to keep the other. a bit of wet and dry but the way the trigger works its not really much benefit. I do like the two stage and I find it is not bad pretty crisp on the second stage esp with new springs and a bit of the limited adjustment they have.



Thats why tou send it to Glen. Sets it up as your request and life guarantee on his work so if you decide you don't like it or it changes over time he will re do it. Mine is zero creep and 2lb release. I'll get him set set up my other trigggers as close as possible to the same.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Mar 2018, 9:35 am

marksman wrote:I think if you have to ask "should I" you shouldn't
you already find it good enough for what you want :drinks:
sure there are plenty of things you can do to wring out more accuracy
but do you want to, I think you are happy enough :thumbsup:

Yep, maybe it's just a touch of the "greener grass syndrome". There is just so much bright and shiny available these days it can turn your head.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by in2anity » 14 Mar 2018, 10:58 am

Gwion wrote:I'll get him set set up my other trigggers as close as possible to the same.


FWIW I agree this is a really important point; aiming to have a consistent break across your collection of rifles is paramount for offhand shooting,
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Mar 2018, 1:32 pm

Mate,
There ain't nothin' wrong with that rifle :D :thumbsup:
Rejoice :drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Daddybang » 14 Mar 2018, 1:42 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Mate,
There ain't nothin' wrong with that rifle :D :thumbsup:
Rejoice :drinks:


+1 I've seen a hell of a lot worse groups :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2018, 5:34 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Mate,
There ain't nothin' wrong with that rifle :D :thumbsup:
Rejoice :drinks:



I agree.

Having just seen the group I think the OP is JUST A f***ing WINGER

Don't fix what works OK. Be happy.

That out of the box accuracy was unheard of 20 years ago.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Mar 2018, 6:19 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Wm.Traynor wrote:Mate,
There ain't nothin' wrong with that rifle :D :thumbsup:
Rejoice :drinks:



I agree.

Having just seen the group I think the OP is JUST A f***ing WINGER

Don't fix what works OK. Be happy.

That out of the box accuracy was unheard of 20 years ago.


Sorry if my post came across as being ungrateful, but I'm not, I think I've got myself a keeper (at a bargain price). The question came up because in my latest session I'd have good group like the one I posted and then a not-so-good group, and then another good group while (to my perception) I'm doing exactly the same thing each time. The guy I was speaking to suggested simply re-tensioning the action screws might fix some of the spread. I'm no gunsmith and I've been out of the sport for a few decades so it got me thinking whether there were a bunch of other little tips and traps worth trying. Turns out the consensus is the rifle is just fine, and I just need to get better (and stop whinging). Fair cop.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by bigrich » 14 Mar 2018, 7:15 pm

uummmm, the way i see it forums are for asking/expressing opinions, getting feedback/help , and asking/ expressing advice . ya group is real good , ya have asked for opinions and tips, and got both . i don't see it as whinging. ya just trying to improve and better yourself and your rifle. nothing wrong with that. must be beer'o'clock fellas. cheers. :drinks: :D :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Gwion » 14 Mar 2018, 9:18 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:
Wm.Traynor wrote:Mate,
There ain't nothin' wrong with that rifle :D :thumbsup:
Rejoice :drinks:



I agree.

Having just seen the group I think the OP is JUST A f***ing WINGER

Don't fix what works OK. Be happy.

That out of the box accuracy was unheard of 20 years ago.


Sorry if my post came across as being ungrateful, but I'm not, I think I've got myself a keeper (at a bargain price). The question came up because in my latest session I'd have good group like the one I posted and then a not-so-good group, and then another good group while (to my perception) I'm doing exactly the same thing each time. The guy I was speaking to suggested simply re-tensioning the action screws might fix some of the spread. I'm no gunsmith and I've been out of the sport for a few decades so it got me thinking whether there were a bunch of other little tips and traps worth trying. Turns out the consensus is the rifle is just fine, and I just need to get better (and stop whinging). Fair cop.


Don't worry about OB. He probably drank as much beer as i just have... am.

Point is. Your rifle shoots great. Keep it and save up for an even better one. :thumbsup:

Or. If you're a masochist. Buy one that really needs some work!
:lol:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Gwion » 14 Mar 2018, 9:19 pm

Like a Ruger, for example...
:drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2018, 9:57 pm

I apologise.. I got a bit too excited there.
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Gwion » 14 Mar 2018, 10:22 pm

Good onya OB! :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Should I bother?

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Mar 2018, 11:06 am

Gwion wrote:Like a Ruger, for example...
:drinks:


Or a Mossberg 464 :(
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