44mag accuracy expectations?

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44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 08 Apr 2018, 8:14 pm

Hey peeps,

New to the whole pistol cartridge world I'm starting to work up loads for the latest (stainless 24") Chiappa 1892 action. Projectiles are a hard-cast 240gn, RNFP slightly oversized to .430". Groups shot at a distance of 50m over AR2205 (with tang + front globe). 10 shot groups without much of a breather between groups, so admittedly barrel got pretty hot.

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20gn 2205 @ 50m
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20.5gn 2205 @ 50m
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21.5gn 2205 @ 50m
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22.jpg
22gn 2205 @ 50m
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I'm kinda aiming for in-the-realm of 1" - 1.5" @50m (which these are clearly not!). Does anyone agree these groups are sub-par? Are my expectations a bit unrealistic?

Cheers,
In2.
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21gn 2205 @ 50m
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bigrich » 08 Apr 2018, 8:36 pm

mate if ya shootin' groups like that fast with the standard buck horn sights ya doin' ok . i did the same sort of test at 50 rapid fire with my mod '94 30-30 with williams peeps with a large apperature and grouped around the same. looks like pig killin' shots every time. you could play with peep sights or ,scope it and get tighter groups. kinda depends on your definition of a lever gun. for me, it's a light weight, quick to point, close range scrub gun. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 08 Apr 2018, 8:51 pm

bigrich wrote:mate if ya shootin' groups like that fast with the standard buck horn sights ya doin' ok . i did the same sort of test at 50 rapid fire with my mod '94 30-30 with williams peeps with a large apperature and grouped around the same. looks like pig killin' shots every time. you could play with peep sights or ,scope it and get tighter groups. kinda depends on your definition of a lever gun. for me, it's a light weight, quick to point, close range scrub gun. :thumbsup: :drinks:


I want to use it for PC-CLAS - that's why I'm chasing accuracy. For example my scores are measurably better when I use my moa lithy vs my mate's 2moa martini - so I'm presuming the same ideals ultimately translate across to CLAS. It's funny you know; i chased accuracy with my marlin 30/30 in a time past, and I kinda came to the conclusion that the 30/30 was pretty "inaccurate". But now shooting this rifle I'm feeling as thought the 30/30 ain't so bad after all...
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Apr 2018, 8:58 pm

in2anity wrote:Hey peeps,

New to the whole pistol cartridge world I'm starting to work up loads for the latest (stainless 24") Chiappa 1892 action. Projectiles are a hard-cast 240gn, RNFP slightly oversized to .430". Groups shot at a distance of 50m over AR2205 (with tang + front globe). 10 shot groups without much of a breather between groups, so admittedly barrel got pretty hot.

I'm kinda aiming for in-the-realm of 1" - 1.5" @50m (which these are clearly not!). Does anyone agree these groups are sub-par? Are my expectations a bit unrealistic?

Cheers,
In2.


I think you're asking two questions, potential accuracy of the cartridge, and of the rifle. A .44 Magnum bolt-action rifle could shoot significantly better than a lever. For load development I prefer to fit a scope to minimise shooter input.
My .44 is a Marlin '94 with Microgroove bore, which is problematical shooting cast bullets.
With jacketed bullets and a scope I've managed 40mm groups off a rest at 50m.
With hardcast .432" 232gn bullets I'm seeing about double that, scoped off a rest.
With Williams FP-336-TK peep sight, the 180gn jacketed HP XTP's are good, but still around 100mm at 50m rested.
With cast bullets around 120mm is possible, rested peep sight.

If you can shoot any non-competition rifle into 1.5" at 50m with iron sights you're doing pretty well. To do so with a short fat bullet out of a lever-action rifle I'd be very impressed indeed.

I think your groups are pretty decent myself.

The Uberti '66 .38 Special I've got down to 50mm groups at 50m, rested with Williams FP-336-TK peep, but with Berry's copper plated 125gn bullet. Hardcast is still very poor, around 150mm groups at 50m rested with a few different bullets. Frustratingly hopeless practicing on half-scale silhouettes still.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Apr 2018, 9:03 pm

in2anity wrote:I want to use it for PC-CLAS - that's why I'm chasing accuracy. For example my scores are measurably better when I use my moa lithy vs my mate's 2moa martini - so I'm presuming the same ideals ultimately translate across to CLAS. It's funny you know; i chased accuracy with my marlin 30/30 in a time past, and I kinda came to the conclusion that the 30/30 was pretty "inaccurate". But now shooting this rifle I'm feeling as thought the 30/30 ain't so bad after all...


I'm in the same boat :-)
If I were only pig shooting I'd be happy with it, but those silhouettes are tiny targets compared to pigs.
If we can use jacketed bullets in CLAS then I'll run those for the significantly better accuracy. If we can't then I'll have to run Berry's plated bullets. And if we can't use them either, I'll just throw rocks :-)

The .38 Special is out-shooting the .44 Mag, but it has no knock-down energy for silhouette. It hits the half-scale targets pretty bloody hard, but I can't see it reliably dropping the full-scale ram at 200m. If I can do some testing and find that it is suitable, I won't bother with the .44 Mag.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bigrich » 08 Apr 2018, 9:14 pm

well in2anity. if your looking at competing in lever class you need a top notch set of peeps. got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30. biggest problem of lever guns is snub nosed projectiles for the tube mags. BR has put up a lot of good advice to take on board. besides all that, practice ,practice,practice. :thumbsup:
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Apr 2018, 10:29 pm

bigrich wrote:well in2anity. if your looking at competing in lever class you need a top notch set of peeps. got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30. biggest problem of lever guns is snub nosed projectiles for the tube mags. BR has put up a lot of good advice to take on board. besides all that, practice ,practice,practice. :thumbsup:


I bought a Lyman globe front with inserts, including a very fine post, for my Norinco JW21 .22LR. But I need to drill and tap my barrel to install it, or make up a new dovetail wedge for it, which I'm unlikely to get sorted before the Nationals in four weeks time. For now I'm using the OEM front sight but filed the post down significantly narrower. I'm using 50-thou apertures which are still bigger than I'd prefer. I made a 24-thou aperture out of aluminium which I think works better, but the aluminium oxidises in front of your eyes and creates spider-web-like hairs that block the hole. If I can remember to poke it clear with a 24-thou drill bit before each string I think I can make it work. I need to make some out of brass, but again I might not manage that before the event either. I'm thinking of filling one in with epoxy and drilling that to 24-thou though.

He may have reckoned that, but did he show you it doing that?

The combination of bullet shapes and lack of a rigidly locked action contribute to inherently poor accuracy I think.

I shot a sight adjustment "box" today at 50m to determine the click increments of the Williams sight.
Sight box.jpg
Sight box.jpg (580.46 KiB) Viewed 6208 times

120 clicks gives me about 300mm, 100 clicks gives me about 250mm, 60 clicks gives me about 170mm, and 40 clicks gives me about 80mm of travel. After shooting centre, 60 clicks right, 60 clicks up, 120 clicks left, 100 clicks down, 120 clicks right, 40 clicks up and 60 clicks left, I was about 30mm right and 20mm low from my original group - not great but in the ballpark. I think tension on the adjusters and gib screws is critical to consistency so more practice is required.

So my clicks averaged across the entire test are 2.6mm at 50m, 5.2mm at 100m, roughly 0.18MoA per click or 5.5clicks per MoA.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bigrich » 09 Apr 2018, 4:37 am

that's some good tips on the peeps BR. i have a love/hate relationship with my '94 at the moment, need to have more of a play with the sights. as for that fella shooting that good ? ya meet all sorts at the range , i just agree and take it with a grain of salt :lol:
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 8:09 am

bigrich wrote:well in2anity. if your looking at competing in lever class you need a top notch set of peeps. got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30. biggest problem of lever guns is snub nosed projectiles for the tube mags. BR has put up a lot of good advice to take on board. besides all that, practice ,practice,practice. :thumbsup:


sadly I have put rather fancy sights on her already bigrich - I got a Marbles Tang and a Lyman 17AHB, and it has about 26 inches of sight radius, so inaccuracies are not stemming from that side of the equation :(
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 8:18 am

bigrich wrote:got talking to a fella at the range that was really into CLAS shooting, had a '94 with a williams FP rear, and i think a lyman front sight with a very fine pin. reckons he could get 2" at 100 with it. was a 30-30


This is feasible - with a lot of hard-yakka I got my marlin 30/30 down to pretty consistently inside 1" @ 50m:

16_2207_L.jpg
Pan-lubed cast lead @ 50m
16_2207_L.jpg (790.64 KiB) Viewed 6351 times


Admittedly this was using a 4x scope, but the Williams + Lyman sight I now have on the 30/30 allows for some pretty accurate shooting; almost as good as this.

Getting back to the 44 though, I talked to Gamerancher a while back about the 44mag; reading between the lines he advised me to use my marlin 30/30 over a 44mag for rifle CLAS (even though my marlin has a much shorter 20" sight radius). It makes sense; at this point my takeaway is that the 30/30 cartridge is inherently more accurate than the 44mag :( ...
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bigrich » 09 Apr 2018, 3:56 pm

find some thick scrub in2anity, with plenty pigs/goats and your 44 will be in it's element. have heard 357 is heaps more accurate, but as BR said doesn't have enough knock down for silhoette . damned if ya do , damned if ya don't. another quirk of lever guns is my 30-30 shoots tighter groups when held in hands on elbows on the bench rather than using a rest. have heard this before, and in my case it's true. hey BR what front lyman sight do i need to match my FP williams rear peep sight ? i'm not looking at any CLAS shooting, just trying to get some quick to use sights sorted for hunting. i had a 336 marlin, and with a scope on it , was as heavy as a bolt gun so what's the point ? traded it on the '94 i have now ( 1974 built, like new ), but my eyes aren't as good as when i played with these 30 yrs ago. any advice would be appreciated. or i might just get a red dot equipped marlin in 45-70 instead where the extra weight would help. don't anybody say get both ! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by Bent Arrow » 09 Apr 2018, 4:49 pm

Get both
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by groundhog » 09 Apr 2018, 5:01 pm

Both 44 mag and 357 mag will work for CLAS rifle, preferably with heavy pills out of longer (24 inch) barrels. For the 44 this means 240 grain pills and for the 357 180 grain pills. As for the 38 special I don't know whether you have enough case capacity to fit the 180 grain pills as they are quite long with enough powder to keep them spinning out to 200m.
And yes Bladeracer you can use jacketed projectiles in CLAS.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Apr 2018, 5:35 pm

bigrich wrote:find some thick scrub in2anity, with plenty pigs/goats and your 44 will be in it's element. have heard 357 is heaps more accurate, but as BR said doesn't have enough knock down for silhoette . damned if ya do , damned if ya don't. another quirk of lever guns is my 30-30 shoots tighter groups when held in hands on elbows on the bench rather than using a rest. have heard this before, and in my case it's true. hey BR what front lyman sight do i need to match my FP williams rear peep sight ? i'm not looking at any CLAS shooting, just trying to get some quick to use sights sorted for hunting. i had a 336 marlin, and with a scope on it , was as heavy as a bolt gun so what's the point ? traded it on the '94 i have now ( 1974 built, like new ), but my eyes aren't as good as when i played with these 30 yrs ago. any advice would be appreciated. or i might just get a red dot equipped marlin in 45-70 instead where the extra weight would help. don't anybody say get both ! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I think it is probably possible to get .357 Magnum to reliably hit and drop the 200m Ram with heavy bullets, but you'd be so close to the energy edge that even wind conditions could be enough to take away that reliability.
Something like this should knock the ram down.
357 230gn bullet.JPG
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I couldn't tell you which front sight "matches" any rear sight. I measured the height of my front sight on the Norinco, figured I wanted 1-2mm taller, and ordered a dovetailed ramp in a height to suit the height of the globe unit.
I need to drill and tap the ramp onto my barrel or make a new dovetail block. The Norinco uses a small dovetail in the barrel, into which you slide a block. The ramp sits over the block and a screw passes through the ramp and threads into the block. The ramp I bought uses the same method but a different sized block that does not extend up into the ramp, and uses a different screw thread. It's easier for me to simply drill and tap an M3 hole just ahead of the dovetail and screw the new ramp on.

I probably wouldn't recommend the globe-style front sight for hunting. Whether you go peep or notch at the rear is personal preference. For quick shots I prefer a peep, but it does limit your field of view, particularly when trying to track a moving target in cover.
Have you tried the Fire Sights with the glowing inserts?
I would certainly recommend a red dot if you're hunting larger game. I prefer the reticles of holographic sights, but I tend to find I can align my eye to a tube easier than trying to find a reticle floating on a sheet of glass mounted above the bore - probably just a matter of getting used to it. With a good red dot you don't even need a cheek weld like you do with open sights - you just need to find the dot, put it on the target, and pull the trigger.

Oh, nearly forgot - get both :-)
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 7:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:I think you're asking two questions, potential accuracy of the cartridge, and of the rifle. A .44 Magnum bolt-action rifle could shoot significantly better than a lever. For load development I prefer to fit a scope to minimise shooter input.
My .44 is a Marlin '94 with Microgroove bore, which is problematical shooting cast bullets.
With jacketed bullets and a scope I've managed 40mm groups off a rest at 50m.
With hardcast .432" 232gn bullets I'm seeing about double that, scoped off a rest.
With Williams FP-336-TK peep sight, the 180gn jacketed HP XTP's are good, but still around 100mm at 50m rested.
With cast bullets around 120mm is possible, rested peep sight.

If you can shoot any non-competition rifle into 1.5" at 50m with iron sights you're doing pretty well. To do so with a short fat bullet out of a lever-action rifle I'd be very impressed indeed.

I think your groups are pretty decent myself.

The Uberti '66 .38 Special I've got down to 50mm groups at 50m, rested with Williams FP-336-TK peep, but with Berry's copper plated 125gn bullet. Hardcast is still very poor, around 150mm groups at 50m rested with a few different bullets. Frustratingly hopeless practicing on half-scale silhouettes still.


This is some really useful info BR - thanks. I take it my groups are in the realm of somewhat "normal". I might actually try some jacketed loads to see what the rifle is capable of - any suggestions? 180gn HP XTPs good are they?
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 7:18 pm

bladeracer wrote:I probably wouldn't recommend the globe-style front sight for hunting. Whether you go peep or notch at the rear is personal preference. For quick shots I prefer a peep, but it does limit your field of view, particularly when trying to track a moving target in cover.
Have you tried the Fire Sights with the glowing inserts?
I would certainly recommend a red dot if you're hunting larger game. I prefer the reticles of holographic sights, but I tend to find I can align my eye to a tube easier than trying to find a reticle floating on a sheet of glass mounted above the bore - probably just a matter of getting used to it. With a good red dot you don't even need a cheek weld like you do with open sights - you just need to find the dot, put it on the target, and pull the trigger.


Yeah globe fronts suck for weirdly shaped targets (like game) - I experimented with them and outright missed some easy shots because of it. The front blade is definitely more adaptable to a variety of situations. With regard to the receiver; for me I swap the insert depending on how much light there is - full sun middle of the day gong smacking kind of stuff you can get away with a small aperture; but when you start losing light it gets difficult in hurry - again, I've missed shots because of lack of light through that small hole. For night spotting, you basically take the insert completely off and use it as a large ghost ring.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 7:48 pm

groundhog wrote:Both 44 mag and 357 mag will work for CLAS rifle, preferably with heavy pills out of longer (24 inch) barrels. For the 44 this means 240 grain pills and for the 357 180 grain pills. As for the 38 special I don't know whether you have enough case capacity to fit the 180 grain pills as they are quite long with enough powder to keep them spinning out to 200m.
And yes Bladeracer you can use jacketed projectiles in CLAS.


You seem to know a thing or two about the 44 groundhog - what do think of those groups? A lot of room for improvement?
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bigrich » 09 Apr 2018, 8:00 pm

thanks for the advice guys, at present i have the standard silver bead front sight post on my '94 with the hunting peep at 95 thou. tried the fire sights, the front post was way to low, couldn't be stuffed trying to order different fire sight front posts to get mine right. might try a slightly smaller rear app hole, have seen ones on brownells that have a brass ring around the hole to help in low light conditions. anyone ever tried a ivory front bead ? ( wouldn't be real ivory, just what their called i suppose ) all things considered i can sight up real quick, anything under 100 is hit. over 100 things start to get a bit vague. just don't really want a scoped or red dot lever gun. sort of defeats the purpose IMHO. i'll try tinkering some more with the app sights and practice practice practice i guess
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Apr 2018, 8:06 pm

in2anity wrote:This is some really useful info BR - thanks. I take it my groups are in the realm of somewhat "normal". I might actually try some jacketed loads to see what the rifle is capable of - any suggestions? 180gn HP XTPs good are they?


I have had zero interest in lever rifles all my life, until October last year, so I really can't tell you what is "normal" exactly :-)
But from what I've read, seen and tried myself I think your groups are pretty good.
I've got a few bullets to try, but mainly the 240gn Nosler Competition JHP bullet purely because it comes in bulk 250rd packs, although not any cheaper than some others. It has an exposed lead nose though which _might_ be damaged during seating so I thought the fully-ecapsulated XTP was worth trying. For me, with the loads I tested, the XTP was a little more accurate. Keep in mind after shooting cast that it'll need a few jacketed bullets down the tube to clean it out before it'll start grouping, so don't give up if the first group is 12" or more :-)
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 09 Apr 2018, 8:38 pm

bigrich wrote:thanks for the advice guys, at present i have the standard silver bead front sight post on my '94 with the hunting peep at 95 thou. tried the fire sights, the front post was way to low, couldn't be stuffed trying to order different fire sight front posts to get mine right. might try a slightly smaller rear app hole, have seen ones on brownells that have a brass ring around the hole to help in low light conditions. anyone ever tried a ivory front bead ? ( wouldn't be real ivory, just what their called i suppose ) all things considered i can sight up real quick, anything under 100 is hit. over 100 things start to get a bit vague. just don't really want a scoped or red dot lever gun. sort of defeats the purpose IMHO. i'll try tinkering some more with the app sights and practice practice practice i guess


Mate I reckon your 94 setup sounds pretty bloody perfect for hunting l- if your onto a good thing I say stick with it! Might not be so good for target shooting though - really depends on your intended application I guess
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Apr 2018, 9:36 pm

groundhog wrote:Both 44 mag and 357 mag will work for CLAS rifle, preferably with heavy pills out of longer (24 inch) barrels. For the 44 this means 240 grain pills and for the 357 180 grain pills. As for the 38 special I don't know whether you have enough case capacity to fit the 180 grain pills as they are quite long with enough powder to keep them spinning out to 200m.
And yes Bladeracer you can use jacketed projectiles in CLAS.


Thanks GH, I thought jacketed bullets were okay but couldn't find a rule when I went looking.
I'll order some of Hornady's 200gn Interlock RN's to try in the .38.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 10 Apr 2018, 4:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:I'll order some of Hornady's 200gn Interlock RN's to try in the .38.


Didn't have to order them, my local has boxes of them on the shelf.
Just need to load some up and try them out.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 10 Apr 2018, 6:32 pm

bladeracer wrote:Keep in mind after shooting cast that it'll need a few jacketed bullets down the tube to clean it out before it'll start grouping, so don't give up if the first group is 12" or more :-)

Lol will do - picked up a old box of 240gn fmjs from Western - $30/100, a bargain! It’ll be interesting to see how they shoot vs the lead.

6643EB8C-AB06-47E7-BFA8-228573444DA4.jpeg
Hornady 240gn fmj
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by groundhog » 10 Apr 2018, 11:21 pm

Just watch with the FMJ's as many pistol silhouette ranges will not allow them, have to be a HP or SP projectile.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by SillyWetTas » 12 Apr 2018, 8:51 pm

I shot a 357 out of a 12inch contender pistol for unlimited standing for a while.
180grn were good out to the Turkeys (150m) but were unreliable on the rams at 200m.
Was running my own cast 200grn on the rams. Every ram hit went down.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 13 Apr 2018, 8:18 am

SillyWetTas wrote:I shot a 357 out of a 12inch contender pistol for unlimited standing for a while.
180grn were good out to the Turkeys (150m) but were unreliable on the rams at 200m.
Was running my own cast 200grn on the rams. Every ram hit went down.
Marcus


Very useful to know.
What velocity were you running the 180gn and 200gn bullets at?

I loaded some 110gn XTP's yesterday for testing at 50m.
Fired one round and got the dreaded fail-to-extract that puts the '66 out of action. Had to go back to the office to dissassemble it and didn't get back out there. 1305fps which might be a touch hot for the toggle action, but the group was a very neat .357" hole :-)
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by SillyWetTas » 13 Apr 2018, 5:43 pm

I never ran them over a crono.
Using ar2205 for both bullets.
15 grns for the 158.
And 12.7 for the 200grn
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by MrMickyD » 10 May 2018, 6:42 pm

Much more fun to shoot em out of a revolver.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by bladeracer » 10 May 2018, 7:03 pm

MrMickyD wrote:Much more fun to shoot em out of a revolver.


Not much fun if you have to go to a range, when they're open, to enjoy shooting it under their rules.
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Re: 44mag accuracy expectations?

Post by in2anity » 10 May 2018, 8:44 pm

I just picked up a JM Marlin 32H&R $$$$ ouch - from an accuracy perspective the Chiappa just ain’t cutting the mustard - and there are many other negatives about the 44 I’ve come to realize (for target shooting that is). Plus, I can’t practice with larger than 8mm at ANZAC - dumbest rules I ever did hear. 32 it is.
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