Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 13 Sep 2017, 8:16 pm

[quote="Gwion"]3 months is longer than i could stay sane while load developing; notwithstanding your results!

I am lucky enough to be able to load, shoot, load, shoot, load shoot all in one day. I notice that Chronos also shoots and loads as he goes where possible.

Not saying my process is perfect or most efficient but for my rifles and level of shooting skill, being able to develop a 0.5moa load in one day with less than 50 rounds expended i find pretty efficient.

Yep...3 months...sanity...clearly a reason im here asking...

.5 moa in one day is efficient as far as im concerned...also like the methodology...

As for being sble too load as i shoot--see my note in above post with quote to Chronos...

Thanks
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2017, 8:33 pm

If you have access to a paddock and can set up a temp reloading bench on the back of a ute then you may be able to cut down that 3 months by quite a bit.

:unknown:
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by grandadbushy » 13 Sep 2017, 8:44 pm

By the way Stix all the 22-250s I have owned about 6-8 all , and I say all liked to be very close to the lands, move them away and they opened from
bug holes to maybe on some to .7 or in some cases a little wider
Once I got my best powder load with 55gr projectiles I would then play with diff weight projectiles but at all times having them close to the lands
If your twist is 1-14 to 1-12 I find pretty much 55grs are perfect for those twist rates not saying there is no other way of doing it but just trying to simplify
things
If I remember most all my rifles took about 18 to 24 rounds to perfect the accuracy once I had the best powder for that rifle but the big trick is
keep the projectiles close as possible without touching the lands and try to keep it exactly the same each time you load
There will be for and against this way of doing it but its simple and it works I have proven it to me and that is what matters in the end
Also it has been cheap for me as far as projectiles and powder to end up with bug holes @ 100yds more than I need to do my job
I do test my rifles out fairly wide the widest I've shot a wild dog is 485yds heart shot I don't normally shoot them that far out but I had been chasing him a
long time and he had caused far more damage to stock than any other dog I have chased probably took the shot from shear frustration something I
have never done before I'm not proud of it but it all turned out good

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 14 Sep 2017, 7:13 pm

Thanks for all the info so far...
Ill see how i go over the next few weeks & hopefully put some good results up here...
Cheers
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:11 am

Hi folks,
Forgive me for asking 2 potentially silly questions re seating depth...
On the weekend i mounted the scope & did some fiddling...
I got an approx measurement to the lands, & discovered i can reach the lands comfortably running thru the mag (i feel a little silly not having established this earlier).

Its been mentioned by Chronos & backed by other(s) that seating buĺlets in the lands is more suited for VLD target proj's in custom chambers...

So im seeking advice on 2 quick questions...

1) given this is a production chambered hunting/varmint rifle & will be shooting varmint type proj's & i can reach the lands running thru the mag, how far off the lands should i start load testing from (pending suitable proj length)...?

2) given seating further out is only subject to projectile length in this instance, is there an "ideal" amount of the proj that should be seated in the neck (ie calibre depth)...?

If its of interest, i did the measurement with a Sie .22 cal 55gn Game King (boat tail), touching the lands there is .145"/(3.68mm) +/- .002" of proj seated in case trimmed to spec.
I seated a few dummy rounds & cannot visually see any tip wobble when case is rolled-(i dont have a concentricity gauge)

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by grandadbushy » 18 Sep 2017, 1:49 am

Stix some rifles like different length bullets so what I do is get the best loads with the closest groups that you like with a standard length
requirement for the given calibre then start increasing the length towards the lands
See if the grouping changes in or out but be careful by putting the projectile into the lands can cause a spike in chamber pressure
How I got my length to lands was colour the projectile with black felt pen after putting in an empty case leave it fairly long then fit it into the chamber
and slowly close the bolt until it tightens up don't force it in too tight otherwise it will pull the projectile out when you remove the shell
If its too long it will mark the projectile so keep moving the projectile in testing and remarking every time you move the projectile in until you can close the bolt
and it doesn't leave a mark on the black marker on the projectile then I leave mine at that
If the group tightens up then your rifle likes them close to the lands but if its still not tight enough you can then start playing with powder again just to try for a
tighter group
With one of my rifles I found it shot very good with near max load but when I moved the projectile out close to the lands it shot a hole bug with min load a difference
of about 4gr less powder
So mate get your best load and give it the old heave ho and see how you go
Now remember this is how I got my rifles going probably rough in some eyes but it worked and was quiet simple for a dumb old bastard like me
And they are all tack drivers thankfully if it was left to my ability wouldn't be much worthwile

As far as silly questions never heard of such a thing

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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 10:04 am

Personally I would start my development on the lands then once I have a tight grouping load, test some at 10, 20 & 30 thou off the lands. I have done this with hunting bullets and target (amax) with good results.
A hunting round it is important to feed smoothly and not get jammed, as the potential is there for the jammed bullet (jammed in rifling) to be pulled when extracting an unfired round.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by grandadbushy » 18 Sep 2017, 10:20 am

Yeah Gwion same disease different doctor wouldn't be nothing worse than sitting on a mountain with an empty shell in one hand
and a projectile stuck in the barrel sorta buggers the shooting trip if you can't remove it there
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by sungazer » 18 Sep 2017, 10:50 am

I tried the black texta and found it didnt really leave a mark. I found that putting the bullet in long and not being able to close the bolt a good indication your there and then working the bullet back into the case until no issue. Then try other methods to refine from there. Have a cleaning rod handy if you get a stuck projectile. Other ways are to have a loosely fitting bullet that will push back as the bolt closes.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Sep 2017, 11:15 am

It is usual to have the bullet seated in the neck according to calibre. i.e. 0.22" for 223 pills, 0.300 for 30 calibre rifles but you can use a shallower depth as long as chambering and feeding from the magazine does not spoil the concentricity of the whole cartridge. Always check the feed of the finished product :)
FWIW, I have always used a cleaning rod to determine overall cartridge length with the bullet seated against the lands.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by grandadbushy » 18 Sep 2017, 11:49 am

All good info all works , good debate now Stix all you have to decide is which one works for you or which one you are going to use ,
over time you will probably try them all
Some in there I will even try myself next time I need to

Good luck
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 12:40 pm

Thanks for the different methods of how to attain a distance to lands guys..!

I have confirmed i CAN feed from the mag--infact i loaded dummy's as far as .030" INTO lands & could still fit a baboon in the mag with the cartridge--plenty of room for trouble free feeding (minus the baboon).
So im more interested to hear peoples opinions on whether to begin load testing on, in or off the lands--& by how far either way...?

Thanks Gwion...!...just to confirm, you would start AT the lands, or IN... (ie; +.010/.020...?)

Thanks Wm.traynor on answering concentricity point...!

Thanks again all...
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Gwion » 18 Sep 2017, 12:52 pm

AT or ON the lands, not IN the rifling (jammed). Mind you, with a hunting load i would just be on the lands to get my basic charge, or even start 5 thou off the lands. If you are ON the lands with a hunting load and your seating tolerance is, say, 5thou, then some may end up jammed. The reason i start as close as possible to the lands is so i only have to test in one direction, ie: AWAY form the lands. If i start at, say, 40thou off the lands (not uncommon), then i have to guess which way to start my testing when adjusting seating depth or load up a bunch in either direction, which can be a waste of components.

Again, this is just my way of doing it.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2017, 2:57 pm

sungazer wrote:I tried the black texta and found it didnt really leave a mark. I found that putting the bullet in long and not being able to close the bolt a good indication your there and then working the bullet back into the case until no issue. Then try other methods to refine from there. Have a cleaning rod handy if you get a stuck projectile. Other ways are to have a loosely fitting bullet that will push back as the bolt closes.


not that its the way I would try to find my oal but shine the bullet with steel wool and you will see the marks from the lands

the best way is to use a cleaning rod down the bore against a cocked bolt, tape on rod and mark at the muzzle with a fine marker
then remove bolt and put in a projectile in the chamber against the lands and repeat putting the cleaning rod down the bore against the tip of the bullet put some tape on and mark with a fine marker, now measure the marks you have made and you have your oal, make sure the cleaning rod fits the bore and the rod is a male end, I file the end of a brush flat to make a male end
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by sungazer » 18 Sep 2017, 3:10 pm

Thanks Marksman I had used the cleaning Rod method to check the barrel length of a Rifle I purchased once. didnt think of it for determining the COAL With carful marks I can see how it works. I don't understand why you say a male end cleaning rod surely the female end one would work just as well having a square flat end?
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 3:46 pm

sungazer wrote:Thanks Marksman... ... ... ... I don't understand why you say a male end cleaning rod surely the female end one would work just as well having a square flat end?


Im not answering for Marksman, but i think maybe thats the point--a female rod is not flat at the end, so you could get false readings if the tip of proj enters the internal thread on some occasions, & not on others...a male ended rod has a wider even surface to touch the proj, especially if its not sitting concentric....less room for error.
Just my thoughts, im sure Marksman can clarify.
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by Stix » 18 Sep 2017, 4:14 pm

Gwion wrote:AT or ON the lands, not IN the rifling (jammed). Mind you, with a hunting load i would just be on the lands to get my basic charge, or even start 5 thou off the lands. If you are ON the lands with a hunting load and your seating tolerance is, say, 5thou, then some may end up jammed... ... ...


When did you use my 22-250 seating die Gwion...?...(hehe)
The reason i asked for confirmation of ON or IN is because that particular seating die of mine has about .005" tolerance over a batch of say 30...so if i seated to +.010 i thought it may avoid the inconsistancy by ensuring all are fired from same point...?
Or is the difference of ON the lands to 5 thou off negligible for load testing a hunting rifle...?
Im just theorising for understanings sake..i dont mean to ask the same question a different way. :D
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Re: Most efficient route to an accurate load.

Post by sungazer » 18 Sep 2017, 6:55 pm

Yes no need to answer. I had a seniors moment and while away from the computer it clicked the pointy end would go inside the rod end. Doh
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