How do you anneal your cases...?

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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 14 Sep 2018, 10:15 pm

are your projectiles flat based? if so a vld inside neck chamfer will help and neck turning may help if your necks vary in thickness a heap
I like to do all this stuff before fireforming and its done, I may anneal again in time after so many shots but its not part of my routine
I believe bullet release is critical to precision
if you go to this length for prep you use bushing dies as well, with a neck tension of no more than 3 thou
I do have two rifles that the chambers are cut so the cases are not sized at all, just knock out the primer put in another, powder and seat a pill,
no crooked cases ever, very accurate tight chambers
keep playing with it Stix you will get it, if you need some trashy cases let me know, I'll send you a bag of them :drinks:
if you want a very good neck turner this is it :thumbsup:
http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/product ... g-kit.html
I'll help you spend your money mate :lol:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Stix » 14 Sep 2018, 10:49 pm

So Marksman,...it doesnt seem to matter what the bullets are, FB or BT, i get the seating tension differences regardless :unknown: .
And i do use the K&M VLD chamfer tool already... :thumbsup:

And i actually have that very neck turning tool, however i havnt used it yet--i figure no point using it until i go down the path of a bushing die as you say.

Ive got a few more split neck cases to play with, but ill let you know if need more--thanks for the offer :drinks:

Ill keep playing with it for sure...! :shock: Someone has to :lol:
:drinks:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 14 Sep 2018, 11:06 pm

your a funny bloke Stix :drinks:
keep playing with it mate :lol:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 14 Sep 2018, 11:16 pm

get one of these
http://www.redding-reloading.com/online ... neck-gauge
but buy the bushings you need with it as they come with a 30 cal and 22 cal
get the smaller rod to suit the 204 as well
even if you only segregate say 50 out of your stash that are with 1/2 thou you will be much better off
and when you start neck turning you will need it
I think Q-store has them
check the outside diameter of your fired cases compared to a loaded rounds neck
I recon you may have some really thick necks and some thin ones
not saying that annealing wont help it will and it will definitely stop the split necks :thumbsup:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by sungazer » 15 Sep 2018, 7:56 am

Stix I think I know why you have the problem with the flame. The forch head that comes with the unit gives a blow torch like flame. I bought a pin point flame head for mine. much better if you are trying to heat a specific area
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 15 Sep 2018, 10:45 am

mine has the blow torch type flame, I dont look at/into the flame, I look at the case :unknown:
first you will see the case dry out, then turn a yellowish tinge and then a blue tinge just outside the flame edge
small cases like the 17's or 223's take around 5-6 seconds
larger cases like the 308 may take 7-9 seconds
I heat these at the shoulder/neck, never directly at the neck/case mouth
maybe turn the flame down a bit :unknown:
keep playing Stix you will get it :drinks:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Stix » 15 Sep 2018, 12:28 pm

Hey Marksman, good idea...!! Ill go & measure some of those necks soon...! (dont know why i havnt tried that yet ).
And when you say seperate 50 to within half a thou--do you think its worthwhile doing that just by measuring the OD of fired cases, or only bother with the correct equipment...?

Do you know if any concentricity gauges will do what that Redding case neck gauge will do...? (dont mean to sound lazy just thought id ask if you knew off-hand)...
(i did see on the net somewhere recently a relatively cheap ball micrometer-(a link from here...?...abused guns...?...)-i should have grabbed it...!! :x )

And when it comes to segregating/batching cases by neck wall thickness if not neck turning,
-what is an acceptable case weight/volume difference (extreme spread if you will) per batch...?
In other words, if i separate 50 cases that are within .0005' of neck wall thickness as you suggest, should their weight/volume all be within 3 grains of each other...? half a grain of each other...?
(i realise this is just doing things by halves, & the ideal would be to just buy a new set of cases & go full anal, but im keen to try this just to see if it makes a difference).

(gees it gets the mind cranking doesnt it...one thing leads to another, that leads to 15 others...i often think 'bugger all this crap, ill just go back to simpletons'ville, size charge seat n shoot...then i get a flyer & im right back in the whirlpool getting sucked down the OCD drain...!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Stix » 15 Sep 2018, 12:41 pm

Sh1t sungazer, i think you might be right on the money there...bludy hell...!!

I looked at all of them in the shop for ages & im sure the yellow one i looked at came with a fine point, but i grabbed a different yellow one with a case that has a cyclone head on it--this whole time i thought i had a fine tip burner & thought it must just be the gas...!

Marksman, ill try & take a pic of what i mean, i know you say you look at the case & NOT the flame, but i assume you must be looking THROUGH the flame to see the case change...? but the turbulance this flame has really prevents seeing these subtle changes in the brass. :unknown:
I know what you mean in seeing those changes as ive seen it when the ol'man used to do it with his propane burner.
Ive tried to turn the flame right down with no joy...bludy hell.

Ill be right when i get that paint... :thumbsup:

Thanks :drinks:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 15 Sep 2018, 2:13 pm

just use your verniers to check your neck thickness
be aware though that used cases usually are thinner at the case mouth than at the base of the neck
if you put the vernier jaws half way into the neck you should get a good idea of what it is
check this at 4 points and only consider them if they are very close to the same

if you add up the neck wall thickness x 2, add the bullet diameter you will have the loaded round neck thickness without neck tension
then measure one of your loaded rounds and take that amount off the above figure and that is the neck tension you are currently using
I like around 2 thou but no more than 3 thou, bullet release is IMO very important
measuring a fired neck gives an indication of your neck clearance in the chamber
I like around 3 thou, but have tighter in tight chambered rifles, around 5 thou clearance can be normal for factory chambers
using lee collet dies or bushing dies keeps the case in a straight line with the bore because they don't size a small part of the base of the neck
that makes it not as bad to have a heap of neck clearance in the chamber
rcbs do a concentricity gauge that does neck thickness but I don't think it is very accurate because it does not use a pilot, probably better with verniers
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbOCN7rEvU
when sorting out cases by volume I would expect 1/2 a grain to be exceptable but other opinions may differ
everyone make a curry different :lol: :drinks: love that saying, thanks Daddybang :thumbsup:

looking through the flame is right but you will not see the changes properly till you pull the case away
then you will see how far down the case the heat has gone straight away and you will see the changes
you could use a bbq flame or a gas stove to do it, if the missus is out for the day :drinks:
like I said its a trial and error thing, get your counting and rhythm happening and you'll be right :thumbsup:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Ziad » 15 Sep 2018, 3:29 pm

Can I ask, when doing annealing how do you tel that you have gone too far and the case is cactus
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by No1_49er » 15 Sep 2018, 7:07 pm

Ziad wrote:Can I ask, when doing annealing how do you tel that you have gone too far and the case is cactus

Ziad, I'll try to make it a bit easier for you.
Your questions suggest that you have not taken the time to read the 6mmBR article by Ken Light, the link for which is posted in this thread. I would urge you to read it. All of it.
A very short extract from it is here: -

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft

How do you know the temperature? You need to invest in some Tempil laquer, or crayon. Not expensive, and welding supply shops stock it or can get it for you.
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Ziad » 15 Sep 2018, 9:03 pm

Thanks mate. Yeah I read it. And saw the limits of 950deg and it glowing red. My question more so was if its not glowing red (reached 950) but say left it for 8 sec as I don't have the paint so it could be 650deg or 850deg. How do I tell that the brass is cactus or wasn't warmed enough, read somewhere amp annealing does a test of some sorts.

Btw I just read the other post about using a needle finger point flame. Mine is more blow torch. So might get the other nozzle and try again I have a bunch of bras that's crap to play around
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 15 Sep 2018, 9:45 pm

I would like to add that if you do over heat you cases you can bring them back by work hardening, they are not completely knackered, maybe
the problem with to soft brass cases is neck tension, it wont grip
by working your cases through a die with an expander button you harden up the brass again, if you can work the cases without them collapsing
when I'm forming wildcat cases I want the brass as soft as I can have it so it will form nicely, but I don't want soft case heads
I get a heap of reloads out of my cases without annealing every time but it is a necessity at times
I recon try and do it till you go to far on a rubbish case, a cherry red colour, then you know how far not to go and and just shorten the time to suit
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by No1_49er » 15 Sep 2018, 10:07 pm

Ziad wrote:Thanks mate. Yeah I read it. And saw the limits of 950deg and it glowing red. My question more so was if its not glowing red (reached 950) but say left it for 8 sec as I don't have the paint so it could be 650deg or 850deg. How do I tell that the brass is cactus or wasn't warmed enough, read somewhere amp annealing does a test of some sorts.

Btw I just read the other post about using a needle finger point flame. Mine is more blow torch. So might get the other nozzle and try again I have a bunch of bras that's crap to play around

You've almost answered your own question. The fact that you can not "see" the temperature means that you need the Tempil Lacquer. There's really no other way around that one.
If you were to go down the road of an AMP machine, the software that is used to calibrate it, to your brass, necessitates that a couple of cases (usually) will be "cactus" during that setup process. But, you still don't/wont see the process happening: it all takes place inside the induction coil that is buried inside the machine. You should also note that EVERY batch of brass should be calibrated as a separate entity. You can't just chuck all your assorted 223, or 243, or whatever, and expect them all to be the same. If you look at the AMP web site you will see countless settings for various batches of different calibers. Check out the 308 for example.
I'm sure that you will have understood from the 6mmBR article that annealing is not something to be done "hit or miss". It is an science that can give you huge benefits when done correctly, but if you get it wrong you could end up with a bolt that is "welded" into the action or a face full of gas blast.
FWIW, I sold my gas annealer and invested in an AMP. So easy, so fast, and so repeatable. Saves all the shaqqing around setting up the burners.
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Ziad » 16 Sep 2018, 8:51 am

Thanks mate, I might try it again. I do have plenty of 308 ppu cases that are once fired, so it's not that urgent. I get about 4 reloads until the case becomes hard to chamber (even empty). Can't work out what it is but after FLS I get 1 more reload if I am lucky. But want to anneal the ADI and hornady cases eventually.

Nice, amp is supposed to be an awesome bit of kit.
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2018, 10:48 am

Ziad wrote:Thanks mate, I might try it again. I do have plenty of 308 ppu cases that are once fired, so it's not that urgent. I get about 4 reloads until the case becomes hard to chamber (even empty). Can't work out what it is but after FLS I get 1 more reload if I am lucky. But want to anneal the ADI and hornady cases eventually.

Nice, amp is supposed to be an awesome bit of kit.


sounds to me that it takes 4 reloads for the cases to form to the chamber
getting hard to chamber after that is because of case size
if you are getting split necks or inconsistent seating pressures after this you need to anneal, IMO I would anneal
but the hard to chamber is the size of the case, can you explain why you only get 1 more reload? :unknown:
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by Ziad » 18 Sep 2018, 3:56 pm

Hey mate. It's a strange one.

Basically the gun is a ruger precision rifle in 308. I have lately found out that neck part of the chamber is slightly over sized, as during neck size I feel the neck compressing slightly (seems extra friction, which I don't get on my other rifle, different calibre).

The first lot of brass, which I bought from shop. I got 4 or 5 reloads then they were harder to chamber and extract (empty brass) had a mate look at the brass he couldn't find anything out of the ordinary. I think the first 5mm of the body (close to neck) is 5 thousandth larger in cases that causing issues compared to one's that don't.

Anyway I did a few different things, pushed the body 20mm into a full length die (not bump the shoulder), and that chambered fine. Then a few others I did a complete FLS. Unfortunately the result was strange, a couple of the FLS were fine others are hard to extract. The 2 I partially put into the FLS die were ok. But I decided to turf all of the brass. I have 250 PPU once fired brass so I am not that worried. I can test annealing on them as I rather keep the adi in operation. I seem to have 5+ reloads from the adi and no issues.

Also I have by chance hit on 46g 2208 as very good es and sd on the FLS ppu brass. Sorry for the long speech.
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Re: How do you anneal your cases...?

Post by marksman » 18 Sep 2018, 8:37 pm

firstly I am thinking you are measuring a sized case to find 5 thou larger near the neck, I would be having a look at where the case is 5 thou larger
I would be putting a straight edge against the side of the case to see if after sizing the case if there is a bulge at that point
first check before sizing a fired in your chamber case then after,
if there is daylight seen between the case and say a ruler used as a strait edge against the sized case there is a bulge
if this is the case it is your die is being screwed to far down, IMHO if you just size the case till it fits the chamber easy that will be enough
these cases at the point that they are hard to chamber are a perfect fit for your chamber, they are good cases
but they need to be very slightly reduced only to fit the chamber, understand that your cases will get to this point at different times,
not at the same amount of firings, I'm hoping this can explain why when you FLSed your cases some fit ok some did not
its worth a look, when you FLS don't look at the instructions they don't work, just size till they fit again :drinks:
let us know how you go :thumbsup:
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