Dumb reloading question

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by gordicans » 13 Aug 2019, 2:21 am

straightshooter wrote:
gordicans wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:Why are you taking the loaded cases apart? Is it possible to fire off the ammo you have? It would be good practice and save stuffing around.


yes good question ... I considered that but driving 70k's to the range firing off 100 rounds for the sake of it not my idea of fun. I'd rather collect the loaded projectiles and powder, and now that I have good case cleaning/resizing/measuring gear start from scratch and use the powder and projectiles and put some quality loads together rather than the haphazard one's I've got now. I want to do some load development with cases that are properly prepared with projectiles seated at the proper depths rather than just guessing and see if I can start putting some good groups together. They were around an inch or slightly above before but I'd like to do a bit better than that.

If the ammo in question shoots acceptably and assuming you are not financially constrained then why not set it aside and save it for those uses where "bragging accuracy" isn't required. A lot of game has been shot with only average ammo.
In my opinion you would probably be better off starting with all fresh components in trying to make quality loads.
If you reuse components then you have a few more suspects, other than the usual ones, to blame if the new ammo does not meet your accuracy expectations.


Which fresh components? I've looked very closely at the projectiles after removing them (with one of those impact hammer thingos) and they look to be perfectly fine to use. I see no advantage in using new cases over the old cases which will be at least as good as new cases after some work on them. The powder of course will be OK to re-use. That only leaves the primers and I'll probably use new ones which are relatively inexpensive. So no, with respect I disagree
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by gordicans » 13 Aug 2019, 2:36 am

Stix wrote:Hey gordigans...
Im not sure how you're pulling the projectiles, but if you're using that 'grip-n-pull'...& you intend to re-use the projectiles, especially if loaded real close to lands, be aware that the grip-n-pull may well deform the bullet & change the ogive.
...how much it changes is dependant on the neck tension the loaded rounds have now, & how hard you grip the tool.
So keep in mind, reloading these if deformed (even slightly) they may also be out of round... :unknown: ... (ive never tested bullets pulled this way for concentricity, but i have measured ogive & that does change-all be it only slightly).

Also, given that, depending how long these rounds have been in existance it might be worth cracking them first with the seater die--just set the seater die so you push the bullet down (seat it deeper in case) one thou or so before pulling--it may well make it easier to pull them.

When i pull bullets (i use the grip-n-pull) i dont use the pulled bullets for load testing, but i do use them for hunting/plinking etc once load testing is done.

Also, if these cases have already been fired in that chamber, i wouldnt size the case, just graphite the necks & neck size... :thumbsup:

:drinks:


Thanks Stix, good advice. I'm using one of those hammer thingos (I just looked it up, they're called a "kinetic bullet puller") and I've looked at them afterwards with a strong magnifier and there looks to be just some very minor surface scratches on the bullet after removing them. Regarding cases I now have a full length resizing die so will be testing all the cases simply by putting into the chamber and only neck size them unless there's any resistance on the bolt when I remove them from the chamber. Then I'll measure for case trimming. Some of these cases I bought in the 1970's but they haven't had a lot of rounds through them.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Aug 2019, 3:31 am

In regards to the cases - your missing the same thing I did until it was explained.
The first firing of new cases and those cases that have been full resized - will allow the case / neck / etc to fireform specifically to your chamber.
The cases are then - tailored to your rifle and only need neck sizing to give you the best consistency / accuracy.

If your loaded ammo is new, recently resized, never fired in your rifle, etc - then there are additional benefits to simply firing the ammo to fireform those particular cases.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by on_one_wheel » 13 Aug 2019, 8:56 am

I've deprimed about 50 using a lee deprimg pin and a hammer as used with the Lee Loader.

Never had a single one go off, other than that zero care was taken, one tap and their out.

As always, safety glasses just in case.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by marksman » 13 Aug 2019, 10:44 am

I have had a primer go off when depriming with a wilson hand die similar to the lee hand die, it blew the die out of my hand,
lesson learnt use wobble dies and just squeeze the primer out, no hammers :lol:

its entirely up to yourself if you pull this ammo and reload it again expecting to get a better result than you already have by using better techniques
straightshooter is dead right that you would be better off with fresh components to get the results you are after

" I want to do some load development with cases that are properly prepared with projectiles seated at the proper depths rather than just guessing and see if I can start putting some good groups together."

its not a fresh start till you fireform the cases and use new components, the projectiles are seconds once pulled and so are the primers, the bullets will not be as consistent as made, if they show any scuff marks will be off centre like an unbalanced wheel on your car, the primers if the pellet hasn't been damaged by the hard hitting of the kinetic bullet puller will be smaller and wont fit as tight as a new one, then you consider that your neck tensions will be all over the place and the case volumes will be different, once re reloaded your ammo is as good as what you already have :unknown:
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by gordicans » 14 Aug 2019, 3:55 am

TassieTiger wrote:In regards to the cases - your missing the same thing I did until it was explained.
The first firing of new cases and those cases that have been full resized - will allow the case / neck / etc to fireform specifically to your chamber.
The cases are then - tailored to your rifle and only need neck sizing to give you the best consistency / accuracy.

If your loaded ammo is new, recently resized, never fired in your rifle, etc - then there are additional benefits to simply firing the ammo to fireform those particular cases.


Thanks Tassie, but I get this one. I bought most of my in the 1970's and have been used a fair bit so they are far from new cases so and that is part of the problem. I don't trust them any more in the breach. So I'll be separating the ones that need full length resizing from the others. And then case trimming will be the main job to get these cartridges into shape then I can do some load development... I suspect some of the cases have lengthened to the extent that they are pushing onto the lands.

Fortunately the .222 is a forgiving cartridge from this perspective.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Aug 2019, 8:13 am

If the cases are longer than where the reamer has cut the chamber it will be very difficult to close the bolt. This could also lead to massive increases in pressure. Trim all of your brass to the trim lenght. Then FL size all of your brass. Chamfer the mouth and you are ready to go.

If you are really keen you could pay someone to anneal your cases for you. I am guessing you are not setup for annealing yourself. What brand is your brass? Would you consider buying new Norma or Lapua brass?
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by Bills Shed » 14 Aug 2019, 8:39 am

gordicans wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:In regards to the cases - your missing the same thing I did until it was explained.
The first firing of new cases and those cases that have been full resized - will allow the case / neck / etc to fireform specifically to your chamber.
The cases are then - tailored to your rifle and only need neck sizing to give you the best consistency / accuracy.

If your loaded ammo is new, recently resized, never fired in your rifle, etc - then there are additional benefits to simply firing the ammo to fireform those particular cases.


Thanks Tassie, but I get this one. I bought most of my in the 1970's and have been used a fair bit so they are far from new cases so and that is part of the problem. I don't trust them any more in the breach. So I'll be separating the ones that need full length resizing from the others. And then case trimming will be the main job to get these cartridges into shape then I can do some load development... I suspect some of the cases have lengthened to the extent that they are pushing onto the lands.

Fortunately the .222 is a forgiving cartridge from this perspective.


Gordicans I think you are getting a little lost in the process or maybe terminology. Case trimming does not stop the projectile
from getting pushed into the lands, C.O.L. does. A long case, as previously said, will be hard to chamber and if forced may grip the projectile like a crimp, causing pressure issues.

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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by Stix » 14 Aug 2019, 10:55 am

gordicans wrote:
Stix wrote:Hey gordigans...
Im not sure how you're pulling the projectiles, but if you're using that 'grip-n-pull'...& you intend to re-use the projectiles, especially if loaded real close to lands, be aware that the grip-n-pull may well deform the bullet & change the ogive.
...how much it changes is dependant on the neck tension the loaded rounds have now, & how hard you grip the tool.
So keep in mind, reloading these if deformed (even slightly) they may also be out of round... :unknown: ... (ive never tested bullets pulled this way for concentricity, but i have measured ogive & that does change-all be it only slightly).

Also, given that, depending how long these rounds have been in existance it might be worth cracking them first with the seater die--just set the seater die so you push the bullet down (seat it deeper in case) one thou or so before pulling--it may well make it easier to pull them.

When i pull bullets (i use the grip-n-pull) i dont use the pulled bullets for load testing, but i do use them for hunting/plinking etc once load testing is done.

Also, if these cases have already been fired in that chamber, i wouldnt size the case, just graphite the necks & neck size... :thumbsup:

:drinks:


Thanks Stix, good advice. I'm using one of those hammer thingos (I just looked it up, they're called a "kinetic bullet puller") and I've looked at them afterwards with a strong magnifier and there looks to be just some very minor surface scratches on the bullet after removing them. Regarding cases I now have a full length resizing die so will be testing all the cases simply by putting into the chamber and only neck size them unless there's any resistance on the bolt when I remove them from the chamber. Then I'll measure for case trimming. Some of these cases I bought in the 1970's but they haven't had a lot of rounds through them.


Well sounds like you're dead set on the pulling apart excercise...!!

If you are going to FL size any of them, i would do them all...
In other words either neck size all or FL size them.all...
Do you have the tools to measure the shoulder...?
(That little hornady comparitor set)...if you do, measure the shoulders of cases that are not tight, then FL size to the smallest increment you can down from that (.001"), & run them all through the FL sizer die....thst way they've all had the same work & brass flow...

Im not sure if all these cases are same brand & batch... :unknown: ..so it might be worth annealing them as scj said...

Also, if only neck sizing, once they're pulled & before you de-prime them, it may be do marksmans trick of volume batching them with water...

For trimming, trim them all to same length...dont measure each one & only trim long ones like you mentioned for FL sizing.
In other words, what you do to one case, do to them all... :thumbsup: ...it helps for better sleep patters... :lol:

And agsin, i wouldnt use the pulled projectiles for load testing--..as others sasid, you're just adding another variable.
But definately keep them to load once youve found your load.

If you find a load with FL sized cases, in theory you will have to FL size excactly the same every firing for that load to work...
Or if you neck size from then on, you'll have to do further testing with those cases to find/refine the load as their volume is different.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by sungazer » 14 Aug 2019, 1:40 pm

When using that hammer, put that collet that holds the bullet away and use the Shell Holder for that cartridge. It just makes it so much easier to use. The hammer is more solid as it tightens down on the shell holder and the case fits the shell holder well and doesn't fall out.
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by duncan61 » 14 Aug 2019, 2:45 pm

case trimming.jpg
case trimming .222
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FWIW .222 is the first chamber I reloaded for and I purchased 100 new Winchester brass.After loading and once firing I found the cases had formed to the chamber and had grown about a millimetre in length.Once all were trimmed to the correct length and loaded again it was rare that the trimmer did more than slightly touch the mouth of the case.At one point I had an aluminium pin for the case length and the hardened steel reamer actually shortened the pin itself and when I was seeing a lot of material coming off I checked it and I had short cut a heap of brass which went in the bin.I am agreeing with what you are doing you have old ammo and you wish to know exactly what you are going to be using in the field/range.I standardized my .222 loads to 50gn PSP Remington as they were $17.95/100 a bag and I was culling roos and going through quite a few like 40-50 a night including foxes and cats.I had 4 Kg of 2208 and found 22.2 grains gave around 2700fps.The red roos up north it blows right through the brain box but some of the big Grey roos down south it does not penetrate but does way enough damage to put them down instantly. does everyone use a case length trimmer like this??
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Re: Dumb reloading question

Post by duncan61 » 14 Aug 2019, 3:01 pm

I took the reloading pathway I did as every cent you can save when culling for profit is important I have no idea as to your intentions with your rifle?? My first reloads in the mid 90s I purchased 52gn Sierra Matchkings the logic being it was mega important to be accurate enough to head shoot.The SMK were very accurate however I had a few pass throughs where you hear the thud and they go down but halfway over to pick them up the get up and hop off.I did recover some of these animals and the bullet had passed through the nasal cavity area.The pointed soft points blew up on contact and did a much better job.I also became more confident in placing the shot at the brain area and not centre of mass of the head.I have no idea why .222 is so accurate but it is.The other lucky break I got was I needed ammo and bought 60 Highland at Geraldton and when I went to zero at the station the POI was exactly the same as my reloads.Good luck with it all and I hope you find the happy place like I did
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