Cooling annealed brass in water makes em harder not softer?

[bawoog]

I'm doing some reading on annealing brass and to be honest am just confusing myself further

I thought the idea was the heat the brass then allow it to cool slowly which softens it.

I see videos of blokes doing it in a tub of water though and knocking it over into the water to cool it.

I thought rapid cooling hardened metal?

[on_one_wheel]

After quenching they are still quite soft, I to was curious about this when I started out.

Heat one up in a dark room until you see a faint glow, drop it in the water, pull it out and bite the neck with your teeth. Now try to crush one that has not been annealed.... big difference.

Just don't let them get them too hot because you will burn the zinc out of the brass and turn it to copper.

Quenching them stops the heat travelling down too far below the neck. I set my workshop up with the doors closed and lights off so its quite dark. I use a deep socket and a short extension from my 1/4 " socket set that neatly fits the brass, I rotate it slowly in a cordless drill at the tip of the inner cone on a LPG torch until I can just see a faint glow, then tip the brass out into the bucket.

[Monty]

I thought rapid cooling hardened metal?

Correct.

This is why you see smiths dunk hot blades (or whatever) directly into water, to harden the metal.

[Redwood]

After quenching they are still quite soft, I to was curious about this when I started out.

Heat one up in a dark room until you see a faint glow, drop it in the water, pull it out and bite the neck with your teeth. Now try to crush one that has not been annealed.... big difference.

Have you ever annealed and let them cool naturally and compared the difference?

[wheedle]

Quenching them stops the heat travelling down too far below the neck.

Doesn't just sitting them in water achieve this anyway?

Why tip them over and flash cool them at all?

[Bills Shed]

Quenching brass in water does NOT harden the brass. Brass work hardens due to sizing and firing etc. That is why the brass cracks after multiple firings and loadings if they have not been annealed. The necks tend to crack most as that is the area that is worked most during reloading.

It does not matter if you air cool the brass or quench them in water. The softness will be the same.

Quenching them in water stops the heat travelling to the head of the brass case. You want the head to remain hard and the neck to be soft.

On_one_wheel is correct, you just want the area to be annealed to be a faint red when annealing.

I flick the case into a tub of water, 1) to stop the heat transfer, and 2) to keep the work area safe. There in nothing worse than a hot piece of brass rolling around on the bench in a darkened room.

When making jackets out of old rifle cases I want the whole case to be soft and so the whole case needs to be a faint red glow before I air cool them.

[Seconds]

Quenching brass in water does NOT harden the brass. Brass work hardens due to sizing and firing etc.

Metallurgy isn't exactly my area of expertise, but why is this not the same as hardening steel by heating/dropping it in water?

Not something that applies to brass?

[Wheelbarrow]

To the wikipedia!

Hardening (metallurgy)

[Bills Shed]

Here is a good site for some detail - http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Do not get put off by their annealing machines. You do not need such a set up for everyday use. If you are doing thousands of cases it would be worth some consideration.

Bill

[Arth]

That rotary contraption they've got going on is epic

[feedr]

That rotary contraption they've got going on is epic

Puts the baking tray full of water to shame

[Bills Shed]

This is my annealing jig that I made awhile back. I tried the "cases in a pan of water" method but found it inconsistent and slow. I tested the jig with a couple of dead cases to get the timing right and then away I went. It is adjustable for height, speed, burner temp and distance away from burner.

Once going I did over 200 cases in less than 30 min. Now that I have made it, I will not need it for a couple of years, hopefully. I just screw it to the bench and it is rock solid stable and so I get repeatable results.

Please remember that the neck needs to be only a very faint red and not cherry red. Cherry red will make the necks like butter, effect the metalurgy and the heat may go to far toward the head of the case,making the head soft. I used Tempilaq paintball to monitor the heat transfer to the head of the case. For the timing I used My wife's metronome that keeps time when she plays the piano.

The cases were flicked into a tub of water just to keep it safe in the darkened shed. I wired down the trigger on the drill so that the chuck was doing about 100 RPM. The case holder is a tech screw driver. I just selected one that best centred the case. As the driver is shallow you can put a new case in without stopping the drill. The burner holding Assy has a physical stop so that I can index the burner away from the drill chuck area while flicking the annealed case into the water and fitting a new case. I then index the burner Assy back to the heating position for the correct count.

The heating position has a spring loaded ball bearing that locates into a detent to hold the Assy in the heating position. I think I may re-engineer that bit as the physical stop appears to far more solid. Maybe an adjustable physical stop would be better!

I could not be happier with the end results. That's a 223 case for size comparison.

What I really like is that it was made out of junk and equipment that I had in the shed. It cost me a bit of power, my time and one electrode. I over engineered the pivot for the arm and would keep it basic if I was to re do it.

[Tiiger]

Nice little rig there Bill.

I'm no expert, but it's clear from a lot of people's pictures that they only heat one side of the brass. Good work with the drill.

[John]

Any sort of flame heating is to hard to control temperature
Your best option is one a lot of people are not aware of but the best in my opinion and the gunsmith that showed me.

Melt some lead in a small pot so there’s about 15 mm of hot melted led in the bottom.

Get a your brass lots of 20 so put a rubber band around them near the base to hold them together

Sit them in the melted lead necks down for about 30 or 40 seconds take straight in to water job done.

Reason why that’s the best way in my opinion is leads melting temperature is just about spot on annealing temperature of brass and heating them in melted lead ensures even consistent heating to critical temperature

To hot or to cold and inconsistent temperatures will lessen case life.

It is the easiest consistent way of doing doing it and consistency is everything when it comes down to reloading

Hopefully it makes sense to you all a little hard to explain but it’s a general jist of it really simple trick that works great

[Ziege]

Just have a look at any cheap ammo like ppu, frontier bulk, etc etc, you can see first hand where it was annealed... Correct you do not want the base of the cartridge to get hot.. this can lead to tearing the arse end out of the cartridge and a die with a spent case stuck up it's hole.

[John]

No you don’t put the base of the case in to the lead only the necks that’s the bit your soften sorry if I wasn’t clear I thought I was but do have trouble explaining things
But it’s the way to go not only the easiest cheapest but them most consistent with out having to spend big on specialised gear.
I learnt that technique from a very talented gunsmith years ago when first playing with a custom 220 stingray which the cases where sized down from 243 cases down to .22 than you had to ream out the inside to suit chamber and projectile due to sizing down the neck became to think and hard from all the forming and work Harding so annealing was very critical in that particular case.
I came from the metal trades where Harding and softening was done all the time and was very finicky thing to get right.
This little trick totally surprised me something that never crossed my mind and I’ve been using it ever since in all my cases from .22 hornet up to .300mag and never looked back.
Give it a go you will be surprised how easy and consistent it is over flame heating I’m not nocking anyone’s techniques by any means it’s just another way of doing it I find more consistent.

[Stoney]

John, does the lead just fall out of the inside of the case when you drop them in the water?

[bladeracer]

John, does the lead just fall out of the inside of the case when you drop them in the water?

The lead should not stick to the brass, it'll stay in the pot.

[Stoney]

The lead should not stick to the brass, it'll stay in the pot.[/quote]

Ok, well you learn something new every day. Thanks Blade.

[John]

Hi there the lead don’t stick to the brass at all it stays in the pot. cases lift out clean and lead free much like a fishing sinker mould the lead don’t stick to it
You won’t have any trouble with lead stuck to brass cases the temperature of melted lead is much lower than the temp needed for it to stick to brass
Much like braising or lead soldering the metal need to be at lot hotter than the braising rod or stick of solder to stick as your using the heat from the metal to melt the solder.
Hope that makes sense I should of explained the technique and proses covering them points I’d for people to think they’d be stuck trying to get stuck lead out of there cases

[Oldbloke]

Quenching brass in water does NOT harden the brass. Brass work hardens due to sizing and firing etc. That is why the brass cracks after multiple firings and loadings if they have not been annealed. The necks tend to crack most as that is the area that is worked most during reloading.

It does not matter if you air cool the brass or quench them in water. The softness will be the same.

Quenching them in water stops the heat travelling to the head of the brass case. You want the head to remain hard and the neck to be soft.

On_one_wheel is correct, you just want the area to be annealed to be a faint red when annealing.

I flick the case into a tub of water, 1) to stop the heat transfer, and 2) to keep the work area safe. There in nothing worse than a hot piece of brass rolling around on the bench in a darkened room.

When making jackets out of old rifle cases I want the whole case to be soft and so the whole case needs to be a faint red glow before I air cool them.

This is good info IMO.

However, interested in the idea of annealing in lead. As lead melts at about 327c I would not have thought it would be hot enough. I understood you needed to achieve about 420c to anneal brass quickly.

Here is some intere sdting reading.

http://www.massreloading.com/annealing.html

BTW. if you see the brass even slightly turn red u are way too hot if your doing it with an lpg torch. Should be just bluish.

[bladeracer]

Annealing is a combination of temperature and time, lower temp means longer time.

[Oldbloke]

Brass Red.jpg (337.53 KiB) Viewed 13215 times

[No1_49er]

I sometimes wonder how much the members of the forum take notice of reference material, for which links are posted, is taken notice of.
This thread, which had its beginnings almost seven years ago, posed a reasonable question with respect to quenching of brass, with results that are contrary to that achieved in steel.
Subsequently, a link to a very thorough discussion on the art and science of annealing cartridge brass ( https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html ) was posted, as it has been in many other threads on this forum. It seems that, for whatever reason, the information is either ignored or disregarded. Anybody who has taken the time to read and understand the discussion, that was in layman's language, would know that brass which has been observed to change to that nice orange colour is junk.

Quote: - "Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft." end quote.

Equally, there is no guarantee that the annealed case has consistent hardness around the neck/shoulder. Unless you have actually measured the temperature with something like the appropriate grade of Tempilaq, you're pissing into the wind if you think you've done a good job.
The molten lead pot method is also "dealt" with.

Unless any of you, who are using the "handyman" method/s, has actually had your brass assessed by analysis of the granular structure of the annealed portion of the case, you really have absolutely no idea as to how "under-annealed" it is (waste of time - nothing achieved), over heated (waste of brass - junk), or inconsistently heated (uneven neck tension), why bother?

Surely it's better to understand the process completely, know what you can or cannot achieve, and do it properly. As alluded to in that AccurateShooter article, the cartridge case has several very important functions to perform, one of which is to save you, the user, from equipment failure (destroyed firearm) of bodily injury, or worse.

For your own safety, and those who may be alongside you, do everybody a favour and get it right, and most of all, read (and re-read) that article.

[John]

No the lead don’t stick to brass at all quick clean easy and consistent

[sungazer]

There is also some really interesting information on Annealing on the AMP site. They compare some common methods used and a lab test afterwards to determine the result.
The Salt bath method was found to have some very interesting results. While you may think it is in AMP interest to poo poo other methods of Annealing I do believe the results and they didnt poo poo all other methods.

[bladeracer]

If you're only annealing your brass to extend its life, inconsistent neck tension or molecular consistency aren't relevant.

[Oldbloke]

If you're only annealing your brass to extend its life, inconsistent neck tension or molecular consistency aren't relevant.

Inclined to agree. For the average bloke doesnt need to be perfect. Just good. And if your only hunting, who would spend a small fortune on annealling equipment. Either toss the cases out or use a DIY system.


The link 49er put up is worth a read.
( https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html )

[sungazer]

No one reads they dont have anything against DIY. The DIY system they recommend as doing the best job is by a flame gas torch system. They found that the salt bath Annealing wasn't transfecting the heat evenly and or very well probably due to skin type effects. I could imagine the same with molten lead as that always has slag or a skin on the surface.

If the area doest get heated enough then its not even going to extend the life of your brass.

[No1_49er]

If you're only annealing your brass to extend its life, inconsistent neck tension or molecular consistency aren't relevant.

Blade, if you had read that article, you would realise that the whole point of doing it properly is to extend the life of the case. Consistency of neck tension and molecular structure follows from the correct procedure.
But if I second guess your inference, it appears that by not using a procedure that provides consistent results you will have absolutely no idea whether you have reached annealing temperature for long enough, fluked it right but not consistently, or destroyed the case by overheating it. Like the title of that article, it is the Art and Science of annealing. You are either getting the job done correctly, or your still pissing in the wind.

And, just as sungazer said, [quote] "If the area doesn't get heated enough then its not even going to extend the life of your brass. [end quote]

Unless you know that you are doing it correctly, as in the defined method and parameters, then you are simply wasting your time in a futile exercise.