Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Bsoamab » 22 Sep 2020, 10:29 am

Greatings everyone,

First time posting and just getting into reloading my own ammunition. Currently I am experimenting with developing my own load for 9mm shooting out of a CZ SP-01 Shadow using -

ADI APS450N
125gr Black widow LRN

Does anyone have any suggestions on -
Optimum loads for 130pf using the above powder
1.OAL
2.case mouth crimp

The OAL I have at the moment with a positive plunk test is 1.076-1.078 with a crimp diameter of 3.75-3.76.

Can anyone verify this data and provide some hints on powder grains for reliable loads?

Kind regards,
Ed
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by vmaxaust » 24 Sep 2020, 9:03 pm

[quote="Bsoamab"]Greatings everyone,



ADI APS450N
125gr Black widow LRN

Does anyone have any suggestions on -
Optimum loads for 130pf using the above powder
1.OAL
2.case mouth crimp

The OAL I have at the moment with a positive plunk test is 1.076-1.078 with a crimp diameter of 3.75-3.76.




I cast the same 124gr LRN bullet as the Black Widow. This is a standard Magma mould which most commercial casters use. I set mine up for light loads as follows...
APS450 2.6gr 820fps
OAL 1.065"
Taper crimp with diameter at crimp .378" average (I don't like crimp diameters smaller than this)
All cases Rollsized and full length sized. Mine drop perfectly into a case gauge or gun barrels.
I use all Hornady dies and Progressive press.

For your application you need about 1050fps so I would try 3.4gr of APS450 to achieve around 1000fps You will need to chrono to know for sure.
You may also want to slug the bore of your barrel. It is often useful to finish size bullets a little larger than the industry standard of .356" For some of my guns I size bullets to either .3565" or even .357" My bullets have the same Hi Tek coating as the commercial casters.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by No1Mk3 » 24 Sep 2020, 10:14 pm

G'day Bsoamab,
Be aware 3.4 is the listed MAXIMUM for 125g Lead at 999fps , with 3.1 as MAX for HRBC 125g Conicals with Win SP primers. To achieve 130PF you will need no less than 1040 fps over the Chrony and you will not achieve this with APS450 unless you exceed ADI MAX loads. We have known for a while that Major with 9mm is going to be almost impossible with the new single base powders. I would highly recommend you visit the ADI website and read the load data there and if you really want 130PF consider another brand of powder or find some AP70, Cheers.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Bsoamab » 28 Sep 2020, 11:40 am

Hey Gents and thanks for the great replies.

I just got back from the range where I tried out
125gb lrn blackwidows
1.075 oal
CCI small pistol primer
3.6gn ASP450N

The results were a bit ordinary compared to 124gn s&b fmj.

Snap back was slow comparing both. I could get back on target far faster with the factory ammo.

Not sure if it's me but accuracy was also a little all over the place.

Could be my crimping.

But it was good fun.

Does anyone have any alternatives to APS450N in a different manufacturer?

I want at least 130pf.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Rwd22 » 28 Sep 2020, 1:15 pm

Not advocating to run above ADI specified max charges, but myself and quite a few others are running 124-125gr (FMJ & Copper Plated) in the 4.0-4.1gn of APS450 region. I do not currently shoot IPSC, but the other blokes I'm referencing do.

I found charges even up to 3.7gn APS450 were still sluggish, I settled on 4.1gn with an OAL of around 1.135" using 124gr RN FMJ.

Have not confirmed this load myself over a chrono, but definitely feels as snappy as a factory cartridge. Have had quite good results in accuracy too as opposed to some of the lighter loads using the same components.

Myself and the other blokes are all using CZ Shadow 2's.

Having not been in the re-loading scene long, I hear AP70 was all the rage for pistol loads, from what I understand it has been discontinued. Maybe look into Alliant Unique, it comes up as an AP70 equiv and can still be found around the place.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by vmaxaust » 28 Sep 2020, 1:29 pm

[quote="Bsoamab"]Hey Gents and thanks for the great replies.

I just got back from the range where I tried out
125gb lrn blackwidows
1.075 oal
CCI small pistol primer
3.6gn ASP450N

The results were a bit ordinary compared to 124gn s&b fmj.

Snap back was slow comparing both. I could get back on target far faster with the factory ammo.

Does it have to be with a 124gr bullet? Are you willing to try a 134gr or 135gr? I use a 134gr RN flat top set up at 1.070" with 3gr APS450 that gives me 980fps.I believe that's over 130 PF. These are very accurate in my Colt Gold Cup Trophy 1911. As for a replacement for ADI AP70, the new APS650 is designed to do that. I believe it is available already.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Bsoamab » 28 Sep 2020, 2:59 pm

Rwd22 wrote:Not advocating to run above ADI specified max charges, but myself and quite a few others are running 124-125gr (FMJ & Copper Plated) in the 4.0-4.1gn of APS450 region. I do not currently shoot IPSC, but the other blokes I'm referencing do.

I found charges even up to 3.7gn APS450 were still sluggish, I settled on 4.1gn with an OAL of around 1.135" using 124gr RN FMJ.

Have not confirmed this load myself over a chrono, but definitely feels as snappy as a factory cartridge. Have had quite good results in accuracy too as opposed to some of the lighter loads using the same components.

Myself and the other blokes are all using CZ Shadow 2's.

Having not been in the re-loading scene long, I hear AP70 was all the rage for pistol loads, from what I understand it has been discontinued. Maybe look into Alliant Unique, it comes up as an AP70 equiv and can still be found around the place.


Hey rwd22,

Been looking around for the APS650N but noone seems to have it here in Sydney.

I might need to consider going up to those grain as your mates have done. It just seems so sluggish with what ii have loaded.

I'm not sure if factory loads are usually higher in pf but it certainly felt that way. Could be a difference in powder.

Cheers for the advice.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Bsoamab » 28 Sep 2020, 3:05 pm

vmaxaust wrote:
Bsoamab wrote:Hey Gents and thanks for the great replies.

I just got back from the range where I tried out
125gb lrn blackwidows
1.075 oal
CCI small pistol primer
3.6gn ASP450N

The results were a bit ordinary compared to 124gn s&b fmj.

Snap back was slow comparing both. I could get back on target far faster with the factory ammo.

Does it have to be with a 124gr bullet? Are you willing to try a 134gr or 135gr? I use a 134gr RN flat top set up at 1.070" with 3gr APS450 that gives me 980fps.I believe that's over 130 PF. These are very accurate in my Colt Gold Cup Trophy 1911. As for a replacement for ADI AP70, the new APS650 is designed to do that. I believe it is available already.


Hi vmaxaust,

Other than I have another 300+ projectiles to use I'm not connected to any grain size or projectile type.

The blackwidows were the only thing Horsley had in stock in poly coated so it's what I ended up getting.

I'd happily try going to 134-135gn after I'm through my blackwidows to get to a nice snappy factory like feeling.

I also compared this to some 124gn reloads I had spare from my local club and it really was the same.

I had no idea how much difference ammunition has on the felt recoil, target acquisition and accuracy.

I'm only a begginer in this stuff so all the help I've been given so far is great. Thanks so much.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Rwd22 » 28 Sep 2020, 4:40 pm

Bsoamab wrote:
Rwd22 wrote:Not advocating to run above ADI specified max charges, but myself and quite a few others are running 124-125gr (FMJ & Copper Plated) in the 4.0-4.1gn of APS450 region. I do not currently shoot IPSC, but the other blokes I'm referencing do.

I found charges even up to 3.7gn APS450 were still sluggish, I settled on 4.1gn with an OAL of around 1.135" using 124gr RN FMJ.

Have not confirmed this load myself over a chrono, but definitely feels as snappy as a factory cartridge. Have had quite good results in accuracy too as opposed to some of the lighter loads using the same components.

Myself and the other blokes are all using CZ Shadow 2's.

Having not been in the re-loading scene long, I hear AP70 was all the rage for pistol loads, from what I understand it has been discontinued. Maybe look into Alliant Unique, it comes up as an AP70 equiv and can still be found around the place.


Hey rwd22,

Been looking around for the APS650N but noone seems to have it here in Sydney.

I might need to consider going up to those grain as your mates have done. It just seems so sluggish with what ii have loaded.

I'm not sure if factory loads are usually higher in pf but it certainly felt that way. Could be a difference in powder.

Cheers for the advice.


Doesn't look like there's any solid release date on the APS650, have only recently started seeing APS950 on the shelves around the place.

The APS450 data didn't give me a lot of hope in seeing decent velocities, but after digging and seeing some testing done by Tigershark Projectiles up here in Bris and chatting to some people who are already using it, I decided to give it a crack and play with higher than ADI specified loads, I'm very happy with how it's performing and APS450 can be found all over the place, so that's the handiest part of it for me.

At current I'm loading around 400 rounds a week for myself and the Mrs, so powder availability was a big thing. Judging by results I've seen and Tigershark's testing, APS450 can be used at similar charge weights as AP70, generally around 0.2gn lower as a start point.

There's a lot of guys with plenty of AP70 stashed away, props to them, but when searching for powders to run, it's hard to get your hands on something that is no longer on the shelves.

Good luck with it mate, I treated my initial APS450 loads the same as I would with rifle, 5 or so of each charge, working in 0.1gn increments, keeping an eye on how the cases were ejecting, how the recoil felt and a quick scout for flattened primers. Also keeping an eye on what groups I was getting.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by glock40sw » 18 Nov 2020, 7:38 pm

G'day.
My Pet loads for SP-01 Shadow are:
135gn RN SIB (Susan Island Bullets) over 3.2gn AP-50
124gn RN SIB over 3.4gn AP-50
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Macross » 23 Nov 2020, 1:47 pm

Here is a link to the load data I have been referencing from TigerShark Ballistics.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1607/8853/files/APS450-test-report.pdf?9

Steve the owner did some preliminary testing with APS450 when it came out, using the projectiles they sell. He is very active in IPSC and his focus is on making PF with his loads.... hence he has some good tables in the PDF showing load data.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Zappa » 11 Dec 2020, 6:44 pm

Pre-Christmas bump. sorry guys.

I've also a Shadow 2 and up until now have been using factory ammo.
So I've got myself a LP1000 and about to buy components. I was advised CC primers, 130gm round nose projectile and AP70 or the now APS450. OAL 1.3
Does that sound about right ?
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by vmaxaust » 12 Dec 2020, 3:43 pm

Zappa wrote:Pre-Christmas bump. sorry guys.

I was advised CC primers, 130gm round nose projectile and AP70 or the now APS450. OAL 1.3
Does that sound about right ?


Any primers will be fine, CCI, Winchester, Federal, Fiocchi etc.

I always use the APS450 in my 9mm semi autos so I've never tried AP70 for 9mm.

Your 1.3" length is wrong. Check again, for a typical round nose 135gr bullet you would use 1.110" to 1.125" approximately. It depends on the actual bullet.

As an example, if I load a round nose 124gr the OAL length I use is 1.068" If I use a round nose 135gr bullet I set it up with a 1.115" OAL. The bullets I'm talking about are your typical cast Hi Tek coated bullets which are very similar in shape to the jacketed or copper coated bullets readily available.

Bottom line it depends on the bullet design but you need to make sure your OAL still sees you able to fit rounds in your magazine and more importantly in the chamber without the bullet belting into the rifling grooves and not allowing the case to correctly headspace in the barrel.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Zappa » 12 Dec 2020, 4:53 pm

vmaxaust wrote:
Zappa wrote:Pre-Christmas bump. sorry guys.

I was advised CC primers, 130gm round nose projectile and AP70 or the now APS450. OAL 1.3
Does that sound about right ?


Any primers will be fine, CCI, Winchester, Federal, Fiocchi etc.

I always use the APS450 in my 9mm semi autos so I've never tried AP70 for 9mm.

Your 1.3" length is wrong. Check again, for a typical round nose 135gr bullet you would use 1.110" to 1.125" approximately. It depends on the actual bullet.

As an example, if I load a round nose 124gr the OAL length I use is 1.068" If I use a round nose 135gr bullet I set it up with a 1.115" OAL. The bullets I'm talking about are your typical cast Hi Tek coated bullets which are very similar in shape to the jacketed or copper coated bullets readily available.

Bottom line it depends on the bullet design but you need to make sure your OAL still sees you able to fit rounds in your magazine and more importantly in the chamber without the bullet belting into the rifling grooves and not allowing the case to correctly headspace in the barrel.


sorry. mistyped meant 1.13.
why does a similar sized and type bullet ( not weight) need a different overall case length?
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by boingk » 12 Dec 2020, 6:24 pm

You'll find not all projectiles equal. Some have multiple lube grooves, some are full lead while others are full copper. All make for a projectile that needs to be seated further out or in.

The main thing you're looking for here is consistency. I tend to run just south of max OAL and go from there. So long as it feeds reliably then it's not an issue. Closer to max means you have more room for powder and thus can optimise your load for velocity if that is what you are chasing
Long time shooter, beginner reloader.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by vmaxaust » 23 Dec 2020, 6:03 am

Zappa wrote:
vmaxaust wrote:
Zappa wrote:Pre-Christmas bump. sorry guys.



sorry. mistyped meant 1.13.
why does a similar sized and type bullet ( not weight) need a different overall case length?


You need to take a given bullet and measure it with micrometer or calipers from the base to the top of the nose. You will basically need to seat bullet to cover lube grooves if there are any, seat on the barrel of the bullet before reaching the ogive (sloping part of bullet). If you have a bullet shape with a longer steeper ogive it will be longer overall than one with a fatter nose. Some bullets are round nose but have a flat on top those logically will see a much shorter OAL than a round nose without a flat.
Your 1.13" measurement is a fine starting point for a typical round nose 135grain lead or copper plated bullet. Changes from this spec are simply trial and error and will depend on the volume of powder you use, how much pressure and velocity you feel you need to develop to give you the results you want.
Bottom line, if you are using a shorter 124 grain round nose you will need to seat the bullet with the straight barrel of the bullet similarly to the 135 grain version. This means you will be seating the 124gr bullet on average about .040" to .045" lower or around 1.065" to 1.070"
You can of course experiment with longer length which means given the same powder volume, you will have less velocity. My suggestion is to arbitrarily pick a seating length as you have done and just keep the powder level the same while trying shorter seating lengths to see if they help or hurt your accuracy.
I personally always do it the other way. I always seat any bullet to cover the straight barrel. Then make small changes to powder load till I get what I want in terms of accuracy while the gun cycles correctly. I always start at the low end of the powder load and build up one tenth of a grain at a time.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Zappa » 13 Jan 2021, 4:28 pm

"I always seat any bullet to cover the straight barrel."

pardon my ignorance. What does that mean?
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by vmaxaust » 13 Jan 2021, 7:50 pm

Zappa wrote:"I always seat any bullet to cover the straight barrel."

pardon my ignorance. What does that mean?


The straight cylindrical (barrel shape) portion of the bullet before it reaches the ogive (slope). By the way, it doesn't have to be dead accurate but you should ask the bullet makers suggestions for a start point seating depth. By all means do the simple drop it in the barrel test to make sure it's not hitting lands. If it's a light weight bullet you don't have enough length to poke it right out close to the lands.
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Re: Reloading 9mm with Black widow 125gr lrn - load data

Post by Zappa » 14 Jan 2021, 9:11 am

gotch. thanks for explanation.
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