Annealing cases.

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Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Jan 2022, 1:56 pm

Sooo, I'm just curious, has anyone tried doing this using the candle method?


https://youtu.be/_oqt4FTk3Ac

P.S. I dont need advice on how to anneal in general. Would like to keep it specific to this method.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by in2anity » 14 Jan 2022, 7:05 am

OB not personally, but I know Marcus O'Dean used to do it - and he one the Queens twice back when SR used to be included. I presume it's better than skipping the annealing altogether. I'll ask him about it next time I'm out.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 14 Jan 2022, 7:39 am

Seems to be a very romantic way of doing it!
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jan 2022, 11:31 am

disco stu wrote:Seems to be a very romantic way of doing it!


:clap: :lol:
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jan 2022, 1:17 pm

in2anity wrote:OB not personally, but I know Marcus O'Dean used to do it - and he one the Queens twice back when SR used to be included. I presume it's better than skipping the annealing altogether. I'll ask him about it next time I'm out.


Thx
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by on_one_wheel » 14 Jan 2022, 3:20 pm

Without trying it, first thoughts are it looks to be heating it up too slowly, I'd be surprised if it reached annealing point before it got too hot to hold.
It would also be difficult to control how much case was annealed wit it heating up that slowly.... I could be wrong :unknown:
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Jan 2022, 4:24 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:Without trying it, first thoughts are it looks to be heating it up too slowly, I'd be surprised if it reached annealing point before it got too hot to hold.
It would also be difficult to control how much case was annealed wit it heating up that slowly.... I could be wrong :unknown:


I ask because there is a lot of crap info on the www. A lot is simply copy paste without any thought.

What you said is why I asked. I'm inclined to agree. Very slow.

Annealing temp is abt 400c to 430c
Candle flame abt 800c
LPG abt 1950c

For me, LPG takes about 4-5 seconds for a 223 case
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by on_one_wheel » 15 Jan 2022, 10:51 am

It would be very interesting to try it in a scientific fashion using some 400 tempilstik. I'd bet London to a brick the heat soak will extend way past the shoulder once ots hot enough.....

Anyone here got some tempilstik?
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Jan 2022, 3:25 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:It would be very interesting to try it in a scientific fashion using some 400 tempilstik.Exactly what I was thinking I'd bet London to a brick the heat soak will extend way past the shoulder once ots hot enough.....Yep

Anyone here got some tempilstik?
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Jan 2022, 3:39 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:It would be very interesting to try it in a scientific fashion using some 400 tempilstik. I'd bet London to a brick the heat soak will extend way past the shoulder once ots hot enough.....

Anyone here got some tempilstik?


How sensible is that.

OR, one of the lazer temp guns
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by No1_49er » 15 Jan 2022, 4:28 pm

A lot of people try to reinvent the wheel.
Why not go to a reasonably authoritative source (AccurateShooter.com) and (re)read their article https://www.accurateshooter.com/technic ... annealing/
BTW, I had one of the Ken Light BC1000 machines, and a range of TempiLaq liquids. Got to the stage where I couldn't be bothered set up the torches again, and again, and again. Different cases require different settings.
Easy fix.
Sold it and bought an A.M.P. induction machine. Shared costs with family and friends.
I'm not sure that I could ever go back to a lesser technology. A bit like LabRadar and all the other chrono's.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Jan 2022, 4:43 pm

Spend $500 - $600 on an AMP to anneal 50 or 100 cases a year, yeh, sure.

And Im not "reinventing" anything. I just found it on the www and thought it may be an alternative. Ive disovered that in life there is usually more than one way to skin a cat.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Jan 2022, 7:00 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Spend $500 - $600 on an AMP to anneal 50 or 100 cases a year, yeh, sure.Agree :D

And Im not "reinventing" anything. I just found it on the www and thought it may be an alternative. Ive disovered that in life there is usually more than one way to skin a cat.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Jan 2022, 7:07 pm

Oldbloke,
Thank you for that reference to Lazer Temperature Guns. In my ignorance, I had never heard of them. Now I know that there is something else besides Tempilaq :D
Bunnings sell heaps of varieties too :D
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Jan 2022, 8:19 pm

But do you have a licence? Lol
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 15 Jan 2022, 9:50 pm

Oldbloke wrote:But do you have a licence? Lol
:lol: although having enough money for some of them might be a bit :oops: :)
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Jan 2022, 10:12 pm

Sooo, this is interesting. He anneals brass from 5 or 10 sec to 20 sec (over annealed)

Then seating bullets and measuring the pressure required. The result strongly suggests that it isnt all that critical at all.

20 minutes and a lot of talking as usual. Lol


https://youtu.be/9HfjRKrbYbo

Doh, forgot the link.

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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by in2anity » 16 Jan 2022, 11:38 am

I saw that video a while back - remember he has quality F class brass, but yeah it changed my view. I am a bit more aggressive with my kaseannealr machine now - take them to “just starting to glow in there dark”. I used to be super annal with the templox testing but I really don’t think it matters.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 16 Jan 2022, 2:42 pm

So out of interest, I just tried a 303 case in candle flame. Took around 22s till the base was too hot to hold. Measuring the "annealdness" is a different story, as I don't have anything to quantify it's hardness apart from prodding it. I wasn't able to bend the neck by hand before or after, so I'm now trying various times in butane flame. Up to 12s with no change. Very crude way of testing to put it very lightly
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Jan 2022, 4:06 pm

Did the brass change colour?
eg grey/blue


When i did sheet metal at tech, oh 50 years ago, to anneal copper we heat it red hot.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by LawrenceA » 16 Jan 2022, 4:42 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Did the brass change colour?
eg grey/blue


When i did sheet metal at tech, oh 50 years ago, to anneal copper we heat it red hot.

Yes same.
A dull glow then quench to anneal. No quench then no anneal.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 16 Jan 2022, 5:11 pm

Quench not needed actually. I used to think that it was opposite of steel and I had to quench, but then did it without and found no difference

I didn't get color change with candle (but leaves black residue even after wiping it off), or even up to 15s time in butane torch. But the flame is quite broad on that torch. I've got a pencil torch I'll compare with, more concentrated flame

I have found with copper I didn't need to get it red hot to soften, but I wasn't trying to get it full soft when I've done it, just a little easier to work.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Jan 2022, 6:19 pm

LawrenceA wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Did the brass change colour?
eg grey/blue


When i did sheet metal at tech, oh 50 years ago, to anneal copper we heat it red hot.

Yes same.
A dull glow then quench to anneal. No quench then no anneal.


Lawrence,
Its well documented that annealing non-ferrous metals then quenching does nothing. Steel is a different matter.

I did these last week using the smaller of the two torches. 223 for about 4 or 5 sec. Perhaps a tad over done. TBO I don't think it really matters tho.

223 4 sec.jpeg
223 4 sec.jpeg (265.07 KiB) Viewed 354 times
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 18 Jan 2022, 11:55 am

Just tried a piece of 1mm brass plate out of a throttle body (modem manufacturing-TPS goes so you have to buy whole throttle body).

Took 22s again until I couldn't hold it. Not sure how work hardened this piece is but no noticeable change in bending between before and after.

Brass conducts heat pretty well, and I'm thinking the heat from the candle spreads out really quick meaning the part over the flame would struggle to get up to annealing temp. Cases are thinner than this piece though. The way thinner brass is easier to solder than thicker.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Jan 2022, 2:30 pm

disco stu wrote:Just tried a piece of 1mm brass plate out of a throttle body (modem manufacturing-TPS goes so you have to buy whole throttle body).

Took 22s again until I couldn't hold it. Not sure how work hardened this piece is but no noticeable change in bending between before and after.

Brass conducts heat pretty well, and I'm thinking the heat from the candle spreads out really quick meaning the part over the flame would struggle to get up to annealing temp. Cases are thinner than this piece though. The way thinner brass is easier to solder than thicker.


I agree. Makes good sense.

A crude test might be using a center punch, then mrasure the diameter of the hole. And compare it to a piece of brass heated to a very dull red or blue. A sort of crude brinel test
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Larry » 18 Jan 2022, 2:37 pm

Necks crush very easily using just small needle nose pliers if they are over annealed.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 18 Jan 2022, 5:22 pm

I just tried coming at this from a different angle-ability to melt solder

I used the same piece of brass plate as before that took 22s to get to hot to hold. Cleaned off a bit near corner and fluxed with acid flux. Set candle underneath and just kept trying the lead/tin solder on it. Didn't time it, but was well over a minute until solder could melt.

My thinking here is that melt temp of solder is well under the temps mentioned for annealing brass. Unless it still softens a bit at those lower temps, but I would assume you would need to get to solder type temp at least for any annealing, and given the time it took your fingers would be putting off smoke by that time, considering the 22s and I had to put it down.

I'll try again I think, and time it for the second go as well as see how far around it is hot enough to melt the solder
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Jan 2022, 7:04 pm

I found Tempilaq on kaseannealr.com.au for $13.75. Does that sound about right?
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by disco stu » 18 Jan 2022, 7:28 pm

Tried again with timer. Solder started melting at 55s over the flame. By about 1:30 I could solder around 15mm away from flame, and only about 15 more seconds to get it hot enough at the other end of the brass around 35mm from flame.
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Re: Annealing cases.

Post by Larry » 18 Jan 2022, 7:58 pm

At the low temp solder will melt it would take a lot longer than just your skin smoking to anneal brass. The idea sounds crazy given the heat transfer rate in brass.
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