home made 224 projectiles

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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Oldbloke » 16 May 2022, 6:02 pm

Bigpete,
Did you try gunozmart? They were cheaper but didn't mention sizes
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 16 May 2022, 7:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:
JohnV wrote:Good question I have never bothered to work that out and price rises would have eroded the savings .
The most relevant factor now is the cost of the equipment , to buy what I have now would cost me about $6000 . You can buy a lot of bullets for $6000.
I can't just use any old scrap lead , it has to be fairly pure lead otherwise the presses that I have can't swage the cores or point form the jackets .
More Modern larger presses can handle harder alloys but only a hydraulic press with large diameter dies can handle wheel weight alloys .


Yes, the equipment outlay is the real issue I think.
Even if you made 60,000 bullets you're still at ten-cents per bullet just to cover the cost of the equipment - plus the cost of the jackets and the lead (you would get some of that back if you sold the equipment afterwards of course). You can buy really nice .224" bullets for under 15 cents apiece, when they're available. If you have to buy pure lead at $12/kg that's four-cents per bullet for 55gn bullets, plus the jackets. From Sierra, the .224" jackets are US$170/1000, or seventeen-cents-US each (.264" are US$135/1000, .308" are US$265/1000).

Good luck trying to make any money out of making them commercially nowadays.

However, Scott Driver of Driver Bullets is making very nice .311" and .308" bullets for about $75/100. I keep meaning to try them but I already have thousands of bullets to play with in my thirty-cal rifles.

The Berry's .30-cal Copper-Plated 123gn and 150gn bullets are under 25c apiece and shoot great, for lower velocities.


I too have had a look at getting jackets from the states but the cost is pretty inhibitive and then there is the cost of getting them here. I have several thousand Corbin jackets that I found locally but for what I do my jackets made from brass cases do very well. I can make them shoot MOA with a bit of development and that is all I need.
I would never pay $12.00/ kg for lead. I pick up dead soft roofing lead and make my billets,/ wire/ cores out of that. $2.00/ kg tops. 1kg of lead is over 1500, 17 cal projectiles. Making the lead wire is the easy part.
Many BR shooters swage their own projectiles and they are another level up from what I do. Cheers to them.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 16 May 2022, 7:55 pm

Bills Shed wrote:I would never pay $12.00/ kg for lead. I pick up dead soft roofing lead and make my billets,/ wire/ cores out of that. $2.00/ kg tops.


Where can you buy lead for $2/kg?
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 16 May 2022, 8:33 pm

Any decent scrap yard. Go through their lead bin and pull out the roofing sheets. As pure as you will find and dead soft. Do not use wheel weights to extrude the wire . Far to hard.

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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Oldbloke » 17 May 2022, 1:44 pm

bigpete wrote:I found them.


Can I suggest you start a new thread when you start this project. I imagine a few here would be very interested.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by bigpete » 17 May 2022, 6:13 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
bigpete wrote:I found them.


Can I suggest you start a new thread when you start this project. I imagine a few here would be very interested.


Not likely to happen.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by northdude » 12 Jun 2022, 2:01 pm

So loaded up 10 of these to try out today. 63gr pill over min load of imr 4064. The rifle has never been a particularly accurate rifle with anything I've tried in it (h&r handi rifle 223 1 in 12) shot 2x 5 shot groups at 100m. was surprised to shoot 2.5 " groups. Ive never tried this load with anything and its was a quick thrown together load just to see how they would go.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 12 Jun 2022, 5:57 pm

Just a heads up on jackets. Malcolm from the old bullet factory is selling of his stock of jackets. They are for his machines and so you will need to have your eyes open and know what you need but these prices are very good. I picked up 8k of copper jackets. This will give me a better quality jacket than my 22LR / 22mag / 17 WSM cases and I do not need to derim them. I have the gear to make them work for me.
Unfortunately there were few interested and many went for SCRAP. I am glad that he had some left.

https://www.bulletmaker.com/Guns/Brass.html

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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 13 Jun 2022, 6:17 pm

I wonder if I could draw a 30 cal gas check to a .224 jacket . I have drawn 6.5mm jackets down to .243 jackets , the process would be the same .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 13 Jun 2022, 6:26 pm

Bills Shed wrote:Just a heads up on jackets. Malcolm from the old bullet factory is selling of his stock of jackets. They are for his machines and so you will need to have your eyes open and know what you need but these prices are very good. I picked up 8k of copper jackets. This will give me a better quality jacket than my 22LR / 22mag / 17 WSM cases and I do not need to derim them. I have the gear to make them work for me.
Unfortunately there were few interested and many went for SCRAP. I am glad that he had some left.

https://www.bulletmaker.com/Guns/Brass.html

Bill

I once bough a few thousand jackets of Malcolm but unfortunately they were poor quality and the base section all rough with grit contamination ground into many of the base section . Was not game to put them into my dies . However they would be better than rimfire jackets .
I swage for accuracy not savings so much . I would rather buy projectiles than use poor quality jackets . If you got them at the right price then it's probably well worth it . Malcolm refused to take back my jackets and replace them with better quality so I would not deal with him anymore anyway .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 13 Jun 2022, 7:34 pm

I will have to see then. That is a surprise. I did not expect that he would sell poor quality. Not to sure how the base section gets rough but time will tell. His projectiles were well respected back in the day.
I too swage for the best accuracy that I can get but I do not need to shoot paper. Many shooters strive for .5 MOA at the range and then never shoot past 150m.

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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 13 Jun 2022, 10:33 pm

Bills Shed wrote:I will have to see then. That is a surprise. I did not expect that he would sell poor quality. Not to sure how the base section gets rough but time will tell. His projectiles were well respected back in the day.
I too swage for the best accuracy that I can get but I do not need to shoot paper. Many shooters strive for .5 MOA at the range and then never shoot past 150m.

Bill

If there is rubbish building up in the cupping dies it gets pushed into the metal and that becomes the base as the cup is then drawn out longer . Malcolm worked on a dirt floor . Some of the jackets were ok and I used some but most were not but the majority had poor concentricity and only produced average accuracy . Not worth the trouble . I gave them away to a guy at my range . You might be more lucky than me buying jackets he was going to use .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by northdude » 14 Jun 2022, 4:41 am

JohnV wrote:
Bills Shed wrote:Just a heads up on jackets. Malcolm from the old bullet factory is selling of his stock of jackets. They are for his machines and so you will need to have your eyes open and know what you need but these prices are very good. I picked up 8k of copper jackets. This will give me a better quality jacket than my 22LR / 22mag / 17 WSM cases and I do not need to derim them. I have the gear to make them work for me.
Unfortunately there were few interested and many went for SCRAP. I am glad that he had some left.

https://www.bulletmaker.com/Guns/Brass.html

Bill

I once bough a few thousand jackets of Malcolm but unfortunately they were poor quality and the base section all rough with grit contamination ground into many of the base section . Was not game to put them into my dies . However they would be better than rimfire jackets .
I swage for accuracy not savings so much . I would rather buy projectiles than use poor quality jackets . If you got them at the right price then it's probably well worth it . Malcolm refused to take back my jackets and replace them with better quality so I would not deal with him anymore anyway .

Whats wrong with using rimfire jackets?
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 14 Jun 2022, 6:48 am

Nothing really wrong with rimfire jackets. They work fine for a hunting projectile. The issue is the firing pin indent, which can be a weak spot. It is also right on the edge of the base once point formed and this can lead to accuracy issues. Also derimming the rim fire case means that there is a cleaning process before that, so. That is another step in the process. Unfolding the rim can also cause uneven jackets and weak spots. They do have their limitations. When drawing the 22LR cases down to 17 cal most weaknesses are found and the jacket will fail in the die. Once drawn the 22 lr case makes a excellent 17 cal jacket.
As commercial jackets are quite expensive, taking the time to sort brass, clean, derim, trim ( if required) and anneal is still a viable option but time consuming. If you can get jackets at a good price it defiantly speeds things up.
I will see how these jackets that I bought work out. They were at a very good price so I would not have lost much if I can not make them work. Again I am not a paper shooter, I clear paddocks and feed dogs.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by northdude » 14 Jun 2022, 7:56 am

Thanks for the info. Thanfully the reply wasnt they will wreck your barrel. I was quite happy with how these ones shot cosidering the twist rate isnt suited to them and its not a very accurate rifle anyway..
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 14 Jun 2022, 8:50 am

H&R Handi rifles are built like shotguns and they can have sloppy chambers . Also the hammer fall before primer detonation can cause some movement .
There is not much you can do to tune them up . Once the brass is fire formed it may shoot better . Also try playing with the bullet seating depth and see if you can seat it out more to just kiss the lands but not engage at all as you don't want a stuck projectile in the lands after you take an unfired round out . Make sure the neck tension is sufficient . For hunting ammo If you can easily push a projectile back into the case by hand pressure it's too loose .
There is nothing wrong about bullets made from rimfire jackets it's just that they have their limitations when compared to a bullet made on a commercial jacket .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 14 Jun 2022, 9:07 am

Bills Shed wrote:Nothing really wrong with rimfire jackets. They work fine for a hunting projectile. The issue is the firing pin indent, which can be a weak spot. It is also right on the edge of the base once point formed and this can lead to accuracy issues. Also derimming the rim fire case means that there is a cleaning process before that, so. That is another step in the process. Unfolding the rim can also cause uneven jackets and weak spots. They do have their limitations. When drawing the 22LR cases down to 17 cal most weaknesses are found and the jacket will fail in the die. Once drawn the 22 lr case makes a excellent 17 cal jacket.
As commercial jackets are quite expensive, taking the time to sort brass, clean, derim, trim ( if required) and anneal is still a viable option but time consuming. If you can get jackets at a good price it defiantly speeds things up.
I will see how these jackets that I bought work out. They were at a very good price so I would not have lost much if I can not make them work. Again I am not a paper shooter, I clear paddocks and feed dogs.

I have done a fair bit of paddock clearing myself ( gun , dozer , chainsaw , Gelly & nitroprill ) and a lot of dog feeding . My last pig dog died about 10 years ago and I am not getting anymore dogs . Most drawing down operations need to be done in steps in small dies . I have a set of ring dies that you can change the button ring in the die to different diameters but the draw back is if the draw is too much you can crack the ring button .
Newer presses with more leverage and bigger diameter dies are more versatile but need a permanent bench setup . My gear can be used on a stump in the bush if necessary . The way to minimize the effect of the firing pin dent is use a slightly domed base punch ( create concave base ) to point form . The weaker edge obturates better into the grooves . Rimfire jackets should not be used in very rough or cut rifled barrels .
Last edited by JohnV on 14 Jun 2022, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 14 Jun 2022, 9:16 am

northdude wrote:Whats wrong with using rimfire jackets?


Nothing at all, but they do have some limitations, as with all bullet designs.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by northdude » 14 Jun 2022, 11:16 am

JohnV wrote:
Bills Shed wrote:Nothing really wrong with rimfire jackets. They work fine for a hunting projectile. The issue is the firing pin indent, which can be a weak spot. It is also right on the edge of the base once point formed and this can lead to accuracy issues. Also derimming the rim fire case means that there is a cleaning process before that, so. That is another step in the process. Unfolding the rim can also cause uneven jackets and weak spots. They do have their limitations. When drawing the 22LR cases down to 17 cal most weaknesses are found and the jacket will fail in the die. Once drawn the 22 lr case makes a excellent 17 cal jacket.
As commercial jackets are quite expensive, taking the time to sort brass, clean, derim, trim ( if required) and anneal is still a viable option but time consuming. If you can get jackets at a good price it defiantly speeds things up.
I will see how these jackets that I bought work out. They were at a very good price so I would not have lost much if I can not make them work. Again I am not a paper shooter, I clear paddocks and feed dogs.

I have done a fair bit of paddock clearing myself ( gun , dozer , chainsaw , Gelly & nitroprill ) and a lot of dog feeding . My last pig dog died about 10 years ago and I am not getting anymore dogs . Most drawing down operations need to be done in steps in small dies . I have a set of ring dies that you can change the button ring in the die to different diameters but the draw back is if the draw is too much you can crack the ring button .
Newer presses with more leverage and bigger diameter dies are more versatile but need a permanent bench setup . My gear can be used on a stump in the bush if necessary . The way to minimize the effect of the firing pin dent is use a slightly domed base punch ( create concave base ) to point form . The weaker edge obturates better into the grooves . Rimfire jackets should not be used in very rough or cut rifled barrels .

These have a concave base
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by northdude » 14 Jun 2022, 12:01 pm

The h&r is not a rifle you would do a bench rest match with thats for sure but ive found most of the ones ive owned accurate enough if you take the desighn of it into account. The rifles should be built on the sb2 frame which is stronger than shotgun frame. This 223 will shoot between 1.5 to 2" groups consistantly so its ok for 100yd goats etc. I also have one in 22 hornet and that will go under an inch easily at 100yd. Theres a few quirky things about them..probably why I like them.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 14 Jun 2022, 3:33 pm

As long as it takes the game it don't matter what gun it is.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 21 Jun 2022, 5:44 pm

Malcolm’s.224” jackets arrived today. I can see no issues with them. All the .224” jackets are .705” long. Clean and square. I did not check the wall thickness
I was concerned that they would not fit my core seat die but they are a perfect fit. I couldn’t help myself, I selected two cores that weighed the same from my junk bucket, seated the core and then point formed them. I did not pay much attention to consistent lube but just wanted to see if they would go through the PF die ok. They worked fine with no annealing required. Just for giggles I tried to draw one down to .172”. This did not work and I punched straight through the base. I did a quick and dirty anneal and then tried again. They drew fine.
It was so long that it stuck to the draw punch and I had to remove it with a pair of pliers, hence the marks on the jacket.
The .705” jacket makes a very nice 62gn ( pictured) but it would be easy to trim them down to any size for lighter projectiles.
This is my first foray into copper jackets and there will be a bit to learn yet.

Bill
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Quick and dirty trial
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Wyliecoyote » 23 Jun 2022, 7:44 pm

Bill, a couple of weeks back i dragged out the bullet press and formed up some 30 cal bullets for an up coming match. All good but i got the bug to take out the slop in the linkages and pins. So i reamed out the bores, made over sized pins (the main pin was actually in two pieces and looked like it has been for some time). Long story short the press is tight as a drum, made more bullets to test slack verse improved press.

Then after all that i looked at setting up a proper inline press, nothing like a Hydro, i mean zero linkages, no pins, just a ram in a solid 3 inch slab of 4340 with a electric pump hydraulic pack. The ram will be a double acting dead stop shoulder type with the return either by pressure or micro switch. Bleed, core and point dies screw into the ram as normal, with the punches set as normal at the top. I have no idea why a simple press like this doesn't exist commercially where the all up cost for components will be less than a RockChucker. Of course I'm in the trade so everything is at cost. The pack will be around 1.5 litres per minute range, slow and powerful rated to 5 ton or so with the intent to take jacket drawing dies and punches in the future.
It won't be long now and jackets will be very hard to get and priced out of economic viability. I can see J4 being appropiated for the military very soon as will Sierra and others. Only a matter of time.
Also Bill i have changed to a lanolin and Vaseline mix recently for bullet lube. Has taken about 30% of the load off the ejection and about 25%off the point up. A real bonus when doing 10 ogive 30 cals.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 23 Jun 2022, 9:46 pm

I do not know where the world is heading but it is not in a good direction for shooters. Nice to hear that there is another swage press out there, getting some maintenance and making projectiles. I think there will be a few swage presses being dusted off in the not to distant future. I am sure there are a few out there but, yes, getting the jackets will be the issue. You would think that people would be making jackets in Aust but there is little demand and costs high. Malcolm had so little interest he sold them for scrap. If you do make a press as you describe and can make jackets, I will give them a run.
I have been emailing Dave Corbin in the states about a couple sets of dies. He is 6-12 months backlogged and a basic set of steel swage dies start at about $900.00. I will stick to what I do and it works for me. I may have to learn to make more complex dies.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 23 Jun 2022, 10:03 pm

Bills Shed wrote:Malcolm’s.224” jackets arrived today. I can see no issues with them. All the .224” jackets are .705” long. Clean and square. I did not check the wall thickness
I was concerned that they would not fit my core seat die but they are a perfect fit. I couldn’t help myself, I selected two cores that weighed the same from my junk bucket, seated the core and then point formed them. I did not pay much attention to consistent lube but just wanted to see if they would go through the PF die ok. They worked fine with no annealing required. Just for giggles I tried to draw one down to .172”. This did not work and I punched straight through the base. I did a quick and dirty anneal and then tried again. They drew fine.
It was so long that it stuck to the draw punch and I had to remove it with a pair of pliers, hence the marks on the jacket.
The .705” jacket makes a very nice 62gn ( pictured) but it would be easy to trim them down to any size for lighter projectiles.
This is my first foray into copper jackets and there will be a bit to learn yet.

Bill

That's good news . Looking at your meplats I think I can see some core bleed by . You may need a slightly larger core seating punch for that jacket core combination . If your getting bleed by then your may not be getting full fill out and expand to the die diameter so potential for loose cores . Both bad for gyroscopic stability .
This is how the core should look inside the meplat .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 23 Jun 2022, 11:17 pm

You have made some nice projectiles there.
You are dead right. I did get a bit of bleed by with that diameter top punch. I will need to make a slightly larger punch, .001”, maybe .002”, but will need to settle on the jacket length first. As stated it was a quick and dirty build to see if the would :
1: Core seat and
2: point form in my dies.
It did so, now comes the finesse of getting the little details correct. I have no need for such a heavy projectile and only made it that weight as there were some cores in the junk bucket.
I will probably trim the jackets down to .480” as the wall thickness is a bit bigger at that point so trials will need to be done.
Ref loose cores.
With the amount of pressure it takes to get a bit of bleed by, there is no way that the core will not have filled the jacket first and seated correctly. That is how a core swage die works, the larger diameter will always fill out first, then bleed out. That is not a concern. As you stated, The bleed by is the concern. If anything I put to much pressure on the core to get that much bleed by when seating the core. They came out of the die’s at the normal .2237” as they alway do. They came out of the PF at .2242” easy enough.
The correct punch will have the bleed by sorted.
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by JohnV » 24 Jun 2022, 5:05 pm

Fair enough I understand what you are saying . I fully agree , too much pressure on the punch can also be a problem . However if the seating punch fits really well then it's hard to get bleed by . .0005 difference between the core seater and the point former is quite small critical match and does not give you much wear in the core seater before ejection problems could occur . When I made a 308 coreseater I gave it .002 smaller than the point former die so it will last way longer before loosing the critical match . If I strike jackets that are too tight I have a ring die that can draw them down to just fit into the core seater . Lead cores still fit easily . This is how die makers arrange their dies to not last as long as they could be spending a lot of time and money arranging a .001 or less critical match .
When swagers start to suffer ejection problems they usually blame the point former die but 9 times out of 10 it's a worn core seater .
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Jun 2022, 6:16 pm

This is interesting thread. Keep it going.

Q. Could you use a Simplex Master O Press to do this work?
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by Bills Shed » 24 Jun 2022, 7:30 pm

It looks strong enough but needs a die set that fits a reloading press.
Stand alone Swaging presses have dies sets built for them and the pressure they can generate. Reloading presses have a different set of dies to fit their threads and rams.
Some die makers make dies for both or conversion kits. Most make dies to suit their own presses and if you ask nicely for other brands but that you will need to negotiate with them. Time frames are horrendous ATM and the cost has been already talked about at the start of this thread.
I have only used D Corbin gear and can only say to start reading the info on his web site but it is a minefield of a web site. There is better gear out there also bigger $. Hopefully others will chime in.
Also if you look at cast boolits on a USA forum there is the worlds supply of information on swaging and the pitfalls. Most forums have a bullet making section.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumd ... 41-Swaging
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Re: home made 224 projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 24 Jun 2022, 7:47 pm

Bills Shed wrote:ITime frames are horrendous ATM and the cost has been already talked about at the start of this thread.


Surely a machine shop here can make dies for you?
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