Full length sizing die neck honing / lapping

[mountains]

G'day,

I have hornady custom grade dies for my 308. Compared to other brands of dies I've used they undersize the neck way more before the expander comes back through and pulls it back out. This means it take the expander a lot of force to pull it back out and it can pull the shoulder out, giving me inconsistent headspace. Not somethig deseriable shooting f-class, nor is the reduction in case life.

Given the OD on the neck of resized but not expanded brass, I estimate the hornady dies have a diameter of .320" in the neck section. Compare this to forster which have I diameter of .327 in that area. Even Lee are at about .324 or .325.

Anyone have any ideas where I could get the neck of the die honed or lapped out? There are a few people that DIY it in the states, but I can't find the laps over here to do it with.

Cheers.

[Boundry Rider]

I had my local gunsmith take out a FLS die neck for me. Gunsmith should have adequate tooling and lathe for the job.

[bladeracer]

G'day,

I have hornady custom grade dies for my 308. Compared to other brands of dies I've used they undersize the neck way more before the expander comes back through and pulls it back out. This means it take the expander a lot of force to pull it back out and it can pull the shoulder out, giving me inconsistent headspace. Not somethig deseriable shooting f-class, nor is the reduction in case life.

Given the OD on the neck of resized but not expanded brass, I estimate the hornady dies have a diameter of .320" in the neck section. Compare this to forster which have I diameter of .327 in that area. Even Lee are at about .324 or .325.

Anyone have any ideas where I could get the neck of the die honed or lapped out? There are a few people that DIY it in the states, but I can't find the laps over here to do it with.

Cheers.

You are lubing inside the case mouth?

You can hone the neck of the die out with a split rod and some emery cloth wrapped around it. Wrap some paper inside it to get up to the size you need.

[Blr243]

I agree with cloth on a rod. If I remember properly There is also info around on this site about useing moly powder and fine graphite powder Combined as a lubricant for getting the expander ball thru the neck easier Balls dragging thru tight dry necks pulling the shoulder up is my pet hate I have struggled with it big time

[bladeracer]

I agree with cloth on a rod. If I remember properly There is also info around on this site about useing moly powder and fine graphite powder Combined as a lubricant for getting the expander ball thru the neck easier Balls dragging thru tight dry necks pulling the shoulder up is my pet hate I have struggled with it big time

I used graphite when I was a kid, it works but it's very messy.
Now I just hit the case mouth with the tiniest touch of Lee Case Lube on my finger tip every few rounds to keep the ball lubed.

[Blr243]

I might give that a try. Last time I tried lube inside necks I overdid it and had a lot of trouble with restricted powder at my thrower .. it was a nightmare

[northdude]

Could always take a tiny bit off the expander ball

[JohnV]

I would be inclined to dump any FLS die for any competition shooting . It just screws up your case fire formed fit and overworks the brass .
Cut the head off the die .015 longer than the case mouth . Drill out the neck from the inside of the die to .010 larger than a loaded round neck diameter . Check inside the die with Doctors Otoscope ( cheap ) for any burrs and use a dremel with a small round grinding ball to polish the neck shoulder junction edge of the die if necessary it wont take much .
Then you have a body die . Then purchase a Lee collet neck sizing die . Two separate sizing operation easier to manage and easier to maintain good minimum headspace case fit . Never any worries about stuck cases as you can punch it straight out and no more expander balls hardening the necks and screwing up the shoulder . Also good die setup to practice partial neck sizing and skim neck turning if you want . Alternately just buy a Redding body die they are cheap . FLS dies are 18th century reloading tech . I invented the body die in 1966 .
Good dry lubrication is mandatory for using expander ball type dies . Use a 50 -50 mix of fine graphite and fine grade moly Powder MOs2 . If the sizing is separated so is the lubrication process separated making it much easier .
Polish up inside the necks really well with an old worn bore brush wrapped in fine grade steel wool in an electric screw driver and go steady . Switch back and forth in direction . Clean the outside with just your hands and some steel wool if not tumbled . Tap the case on the bench to remove any steel wool fibers . Run your fingers around the case neck to get some skin grease on the neck Dip the case necks in the dry lube a few times tap the case to remove any stuck inside the neck . You can also use a tobacco tin with the lube powder and some steel shot in it and dip the case neck in that a few times . Shake the tin with the lid on before use . After a while the expander ball and the die neck will get coated up and it will work way better but I still hate expander balls .
If your getting a heavy neck tension now from the die expander ball diameter combination then a polish down of the expander ball is practical and can help ease the operation but be very careful as it does not take much to make it too small and it's ruined . You also have to consider what kind of action the round will be used in as autos and pumps and magazine feeds needs a higher neck tension than feeding single rounds into a bolt action and heavier projectiles need more neck tension to stop any potential recoil bullet movement .
There is also the neck turn option . If you did a slight skim neck turn the case neck diameter is reduced , the surface smoothed and made more parallel so it slips into the die easier and then when the expander ball come up it sees a larger diameter inside neck making the pass easier , not withstanding the comments above on neck tensions . If you pick up a loaded round and if you can push the projectile back into the case with just your finger and arm strength it's definitely not enough neck tension . You would need to turn off only .001 at a time while checking the seated bullet neck tension to find the right setting to turn all the cases . With this method you don't modify the die any and if you turn too far you only ruin one case . Start on some old worn out cases of the same brand . I recommend a Sinclair manual neck turner but this kind of thing takes some learning .

[SCJ429]

I hate expander balls, squish your necks down way more than required and then pull them back to where they need to be. Seems like a way to work harden them quickly. If you don't want to use bushing dies, get a cheep Lee Collet dies. I have used them to produce some very competitive loads with little runout and consistently light neck tension.

[JohnV]

I hate expander balls, squish your necks down way more than required and then pull them back to where they need to be. Seems like a way to work harden them quickly. If you don't want to use bushing dies, get a cheep Lee Collet dies. I have used them to produce some very competitive loads with little runout and consistently light neck tension.

The Lee Collet die works on uneven and even thickness necks ok whereas Bushing dies work best on very even thickness or neck turned cases .
A micrometer bushing die is dead easy to adjust to any partial neck length sizing whereas a Lee Collet die requires a washer placed over the case onto the shell holder and it's one fixed length per the thickness of the washer . I usually advise the Lee Collet die first if they are not talking about neck turning . Then only the bushing style die if they are neck turning but then you have to have the right diameter bushing for your desired neck tension but different bushings allow adjustments of neck tensions . Whereas a Lee Collet die is a fixed neck tension as per the mandrel diameter and case neck thickness and hardness .
They are both good die systems for slightly different purposes .

[SCJ429]

I agree John and I recommend neck turning but for the average reloader who doesn't turn I would still recommend using these types of dies. You are more likely to produce bent brass using an expended ball to push the brass to the outside than the bullet being a couple of thou off centre because the bush pushed the excess brass to the inside of the neck. For quality brass like Norma or Lapua the runout in the neck is usually pretty small.
As for Collet dies, anyone can learn to use them, they are cheap and you can produce some extremely high quality loads using them.

[JohnV]

I agree John and I recommend neck turning but for the average reloader who doesn't turn I would still recommend using these types of dies. You are more likely to produce bent brass using an expended ball to push the brass to the outside than the bullet being a couple of thou off centre because the bush pushed the excess brass to the inside of the neck. For quality brass like Norma or Lapua the runout in the neck is usually pretty small.
As for Collet dies, anyone can learn to use them, they are cheap and you can produce some extremely high quality loads using them.

I find Lapua cases very good also . For a factory chamber if your going to turn necks then you only want to skim turn and clean up about 75 % of the neck , that's all you need .
Then partial neck size . So after the first firing when you partial size again it leaves a slight second shoulder which the body die never touches .
That way you have retrieved the lost neck thickness and neck centering is better than it was before turning . This is the system I have used on several of my bolt guns for a long time . Some people struggle with the Lee Collet die because the Lee instructions are all wrong . The way they advise is for a Lee press that does not go over center and you apply constant force . People go crazy and apply too much force . The best way to use the die is in a press like an RCBS Rock Chucker that goes over center and you adjust the die to get the sizing done just as it goes over center and locks . That gives a constant amount of force each time and an exact stopping point . Adjusting the die to find that sweet spot in an over center press requires very tiny movements of the die . Which is not catered for in Lee's instructions .

[Oldbloke]

G'day,

Given the OD on the neck of resized but not expanded brass, I estimate the hornady dies have a diameter of .320" in the neck section. Compare this to forster which have I diameter of .327 in that area. Even Lee are at about .324 or .325.

Cheers.

No exspert here but seems a lot of stuffing around and you may stuff the die trying to hone it.
I would:
Buy new die set. Including a Lee collet die.

Sell the one you have.

[Billo]

What the neck size after running thru the dies ? also pull the expander and out and measure, what do you get ?

Ive found quite a few of the hornady expanders need a bit of light polishing to make em work best, also what lube are you using, are you getting enough lube into the neck ?

.

[JohnV]

I agree honing out an internal diameter is a difficult job to keep it nice and round . It frustrates me a bit to hear of people battling away with a die system I abandoned a long time ago for quality ammo anyway . Once you use a body die and get a Lee collet die working right you will never go back to expander ball dies for good quality ammo . They are still ok for minute of pig type ammo .

[JohnV]

I might give that a try. Last time I tried lube inside necks I overdid it and had a lot of trouble with restricted powder at my thrower .. it was a nightmare

You have to use dry lubrication on and inside the necks and even if a tiny amount stays in the case it has no effect on the powder .
Lee collet die does not require any lubrication normally unless the case necks are very soft from annealing and drag on the mandrel . If that happens use some dry lube as explained previously .

[JohnV]

What the neck size after running thru the dies ? also pull the expander and out and measure, what do you get ?

Ive found quite a few of the hornady expanders need a bit of light polishing to make em work best, also what lube are you using, are you getting enough lube into the neck ?

.

Hornady new dimension dies have a better smoother expander ball and I occasionally loaded rough bush loads in 30-06 with them , with a good dry lube mixture they work better than some others I have used years ago .

[Oldbloke]

I just use a tiny amount of oil, lube inside necks, about every third

[JohnV]

I just use a tiny amount of oil, lube inside necks, about every third

Why when it's easy to make up a dry lube ? Not optimal in my view . You don't want wet lube inside necks , it's dodgy . It could kill some of the powder in an inconsistent way and give wider pressure variations .