Bertram bullet availability

[Fester]

A reason the cheaper ballistic tips may work so well for us could simply be that 90% of our game and pests are only medium-sized at best.

Sambar Deer would be the exception, and look how many of them are not recovered, even said to be hit well with .270s and such.

If I were to hunt the big cows or buff, even horses, camels, and such-sized animals, I wouldn't be using BTs, or even Game Kings.
I would be going for a properly designed bullet for big game, and using nothing smaller than a 30-06 or 9.2 type cal to sling the heavy penetrating pill that expands as well as gets through to the middle vitals or more.

I often wonder about Game Kings, as I don't shoot enough animals to make concrete judgements, and just about any projectile kills medium-sized game if placed well.
Even with Super roo .223s, blokes say one penetrated near the length of the deer.
I think to myself, did it pencil or expand?

[bigrich]

A reason the cheaper ballistic tips may work so well for us could simply be that 90% of our game and pests are only medium-sized at best.

Sambar Deer would be the exception, and look how many of them are not recovered, even said to be hit well with .270s and such.

If I were to hunt the big cows or buff, even horses, camels, and such-sized animals, I wouldn't be using BTs, or even Game Kings.
I would be going for a properly designed bullet for big game, and using nothing smaller than a 30-06 or 9.2 type cal to sling the heavy penetrating pill that expands as well as gets through to the middle vitals or more.

I often wonder about Game Kings, as I don't shoot enough animals to make concrete judgements, and just about any projectile kills medium-sized game if placed well.
Even with Super roo .223s, blokes say one penetrated near the length of the deer.
I think to myself, did it pencil or expand?

your right in that most game in oz that people hunt is medium to smaller game and that most ballistic tips perform well on them. up north a lot of people seem to have a preference for barnes or Woodleigh for bigger stuff . from my experience on pigs and goats , sst's of appropriate weight for calibre exit on cross body shots, dump energy and pass through . quick consistent results . the sst's are my "go to" bullet in a lot of cals . 200sst out of my 338-06 are freaking awesome . game kings in general dump all their energy and don't seem to exit from my limited experience with them . 150gn sierra pro hunters behave like a speer hot cor out of a 308 in my use. they pass through without dumping a lot of energy which can result in "dead runs" . nosler BT's seem erratic , in some cals their awesome , in others i've had poor results. nosler accubonds (expensive), dump energy with the tip and the base punches through . these work well . nosler partitions ? who can afford them .

speer seem consistent , 165gn boat tail spitzers are dynamite out of a 30-06, good performance at 308 velocity . so much choice these days , it's actually hard sometimes to make a choice . that's the reason i post a lot of the stuff i do on ballistics , to share the knowledge of my experience , which may be limited compared to some on here who live rural and shoot more than i do. what your saying about 223 super roos is pencilling from what you describe. sounds odd, i would've expected bullet blow up and a horribly injured deer bolting off to die in the bush . but i had a odd experience with 165gn nosler bt's out of a 30-06 . close range they'd pencil , longer range they'd do the ballistic tip thing and smack stuff silly . only thing i could think of was the high velocity at close range was somehow holding the copper jacket together . sounds weird , but only logical thing i can think of . decent size pigs i was shooting too. cheers

[Fester]

I appreciate the info, Rich, as I will never shoot enough to get conclusions, so get info from blokes that do shoot heaps.

I am not into mathematics at all, but ballistics and bullet performance interest me for some reason.
Shooting longer ranges and all the stuff we need to learn to do it well, I guess.

The range of the shot is a big thing, and the love, and hate for using ELDm projies for longer-range hunting is a case on the subject.
It seems that they work fine at hundreds of yards, but close-range shots can pencil through.
You can see why they do it, those blokes into shooting goats at way too long a range would be looking at the fact that you can't kill an animal if you can't even hit it.
Accubonds would be about the only projectile that I know of that could be accurate enough, and work on animals out past the silly type ranges some are shooting.

The Game King thing started on me when I watched that old-school yank (The Real Gunsmith) preaching about using projectiles that are designed to kill game; again, they have bigger animals than us, in general.
He made mention of thin jackets and big boat tails that make full jacket separation occur.
It did make sense.

Back to reality, and normal hunting distances, also different shooting applications: a deer hunter only using a few bullets/ blokes shooting mobs of pigs. The humble .308 and factory ammo become effective and economical.
The NSW NPWS have got storerooms full of the stuff, and their chopper bombers have been busted just peppering the ground with it.
When they actually shoot animals like the horses, they use a magazine full per horse.
All good practice, according to the relevant government ministers.

[Wapiti]

A reason the cheaper ballistic tips may work so well for us could simply be that 90% of our game and pests are only medium-sized at best.

There is a bit of difference Fester.
You can have medium sized animals that are really tough, like a mature boar that's lived in country like ours here. He will be rock hard, tough, solid muscle around the neck and have a 50mm thick cartilage shoulder shield.
A plastic tipped varmint bullet, what those popular cheap plastic tipped things are, might do a spectacular kill one shot from a .30cal, the next the fragile thing hits on the solid shouklder joint at 90' and blows up.
Rich is obsessed with his SST's, but he gets good results cos he uses a large cartridge (for the game he hunts) and the things are basically bigger and have more lead hence more penetration - if all goes well that is. Pull the tip out of one of those and what do you see?
Rich, mate, you should start a thread on SST's in .338 so you can get this off your chest finally!
A .30 Gameking will crap all over a BT or whatever other fancy pants tipped bullet someone's using, when results are averaged on medium game. Pull the tip out with pliers and have a look what these tipped things really are - a hollow-point with a HUGE hole in the front. A faster rifle will get a bonded bullet of average-for-calibre weight expanding nicely.
The original Gameking is a softpoint (yes I know now there are tipped ones, and now they are using the name on HP's too, don't be confused), and that will expand at a slower rate than what's basically a hollow-point with a plastic tip driving back into it to make it expand even faster.

Still on "medium game" you could have a fallow deer that is soft and lightly built, the same height as the pig.
Then... you could have someone way out of their depth pull off a lucky rear-end shot where the projectile from the pea-gun 223 goes the whole length of this little deer without hilling a bone at all. All arse - that doesn't make the 223 adequate for deer whatsoever.
Even yet, side-on, fallow deer are easy to kill with regular bullets - cup and core all-the-rage tipped projectile. I shoot them all the time for meat with 135gn Sierra HP's, but on a pig like described above you have to put the bullet behind the ear to be sure. They blow up on thick shoulder-shields.

One bloke pulls off an arsey shot with a small cartridge, and suddenly it's the ducks guts. That's utter bullsh*t. If someone's saying that to me ever, I write them off.

People go apesh*t about what the hole in the bang-flop-dead animal has... a huge blowhole tells me that the bullet is blowing up in there and on the next shot, hitting big bone, it will fail. The same animal, dead on the spot with a thumb-size hole in it, hit in exactly the same place, tells me that this is what I want for those bone-smashing hits next time.

And I don't see what this fantasy is over sambar deer needing an RPG to kill them. Wapiti (Elk to the plebs) are markedly bigger - the biggest round-horned deer in the world and the most popular cartridge on average from the real hardcore hunters in the US where they come from used to be 30-06 - until people discovered the 300WM/180gn bonded/copper/soft-point. At least, that's what the game managers and breeders we have spoke to overseas have said to us. Even in Alaska.
I'm sure someone with an iphone videoing himself on youtube behind blue neon lights will say something different. I don't listen to them.

To finish, the only reason I'm jumping up and down about trying Woodleighs (which are bonded, and have a harder point) is not in a smaller, slower case but ones that have up to 70-80gns or powder, up to my RUM which runs 105gns, and the bullets are going superfast for their diameter.
I have mentioned before that how even bonded bullets too light (normal even heavy in an average 308/30-06) blow up before getting through a big pigs shoulder shield when going so fast, and the only way to stop that is to go way heavier, which slows them down. Even then overall, the energy dump is spectacular because it's so unlike a larger bore going slower, with similar energy.
That's why it's so fun to shoot.

[bigrich]

A reason the cheaper ballistic tips may work so well for us could simply be that 90% of our game and pests are only medium-sized at best.

There is a bit of difference Fester.
You can have medium sized animals that are really tough, like a mature boar that's lived in country like ours here. He will be rock hard, tough, solid muscle around the neck and have a 50mm thick cartilage shoulder shield.
A plastic tipped varmint bullet, what those popular cheap plastic tipped things are, might do a spectacular kill one shot from a .30cal, the next the fragile thing hits on the solid shouklder joint at 90' and blows up.
Rich is obsessed with his SST's, but he gets good results cos he uses a large cartridge (for the game he hunts) and the things are basically bigger and have more lead hence more penetration - if all goes well that is. Pull the tip out of one of those and what do you see?
Rich, mate, you should start a thread on SST's in .338 so you can get this off your chest finally!
A .30 Gameking will crap all over a BT or whatever other fancy pants tipped bullet someone's using, when results are averaged on medium game. Pull the tip out with pliers and have a look what these tipped things really are - a hollow-point with a HUGE hole in the front. A faster rifle will get a bonded bullet of average-for-calibre weight expanding nicely.
The original Gameking is a softpoint (yes I know now there are tipped ones, and now they are using the name on HP's too, don't be confused), and that will expand at a slower rate than what's basically a hollow-point with a plastic tip driving back into it to make it expand even faster.

Still on "medium game" you could have a fallow deer that is soft and lightly built, the same height as the pig.
Then... you could have someone way out of their depth pull off a lucky rear-end shot where the projectile from the pea-gun 223 goes the whole length of this little deer without hilling a bone at all. All arse - that doesn't make the 223 adequate for deer whatsoever.
Even yet, side-on, fallow deer are easy to kill with regular bullets - cup and core all-the-rage tipped projectile. I shoot them all the time for meat with 135gn Sierra HP's, but on a pig like described above you have to put the bullet behind the ear to be sure. They blow up on thick shoulder-shields.

One bloke pulls off an arsey shot with a small cartridge, and suddenly it's the ducks guts. That's utter bullsh*t. If someone's saying that to me ever, I write them off.

People go apesh*t about what the hole in the bang-flop-dead animal has... a huge blowhole tells me that the bullet is blowing up in there and on the next shot, hitting big bone, it will fail. The same animal, dead on the spot with a thumb-size hole in it, hit in exactly the same place, tells me that this is what I want for those bone-smashing hits next time.

And I don't see what this fantasy is over sambar deer needing an RPG to kill them. Wapiti (Elk to the plebs) are markedly bigger - the biggest round-horned deer in the world and the most popular cartridge on average from the real hardcore hunters in the US where they come from used to be 30-06 - until people discovered the 300WM/180gn bonded/copper/soft-point. At least, that's what the game managers and breeders we have spoke to overseas have said to us. Even in Alaska.
I'm sure someone with an iphone videoing himself on youtube behind blue neon lights will say something different. I don't listen to them.

To finish, the only reason I'm jumping up and down about trying Woodleighs (which are bonded, and have a harder point) is not in a smaller, slower case but ones that have up to 70-80gns or powder, up to my RUM which runs 105gns, and the bullets are going superfast for their diameter.
I have mentioned before that how even bonded bullets too light (normal even heavy in an average 308/30-06) blow up before getting through a big pigs shoulder shield when going so fast, and the only way to stop that is to go way heavier, which slows them down. Even then overall, the energy dump is spectacular because it's so unlike a larger bore going slower, with similar energy.
That's why it's so fun to shoot.

well mate , i've been drifting of topic , but fester did pose a question i could answer i'm a big fan of the 150 sst out of my 308 cause they've reliably worked time and time again . big pigs , small pigs , goats . they're not the most accurate bullet , 3/4" @ 100 , 150 sierra GK shoot like a target bullet , .2" on a good day . if i get sick of the 200sst out of my 338-06 i can always step up to 225gn sst actually i have some speer 225gn boat tails in 338 , supposed to be a reasonably soft bullet . wonder what they'd be like........

[Wapiti]

Yeah Rich, Fester was wondering about the SGK (Sierra Game King) and how it went, I thought I'd try and describe it against the plastic-tipped hollow-points, which is basically what they are.
Not sure why, but a lot of people especially the newer shooters apparently, sidestep the SGK's in any cal for the plastic tipped of any maker.
Hey, Barnes even did it from pressure, even though the designs they had already with a machined copper tip mono construction worked so well. The design needs a hollow point to insert the tip into.

I have a load that shoots really small groups, day after day, in a 338 Lapua Mag using a 250gn Sierra Matchking. I saw these 250gn SGK's in the gunshop, and wondered if they'd be a good substitution up to 500m across gullies and ridges here to what larger game like pigs when they were pulled up, digging their damn holes.
They absolutely were, in every respect in that rifle, spot on at all ranges I'd had recorded "Dope" on, and shot the same touching 5-shot clusters at 100.
Then I hiked out where the pigs were digging up tree roots and set up the TRG on it's Sako bipod, and whacked a 3/4 boar just behind the shoulder bone from that same distance I'd had a gong sitting and had practiced on with the SMK's earlier and gotten that "dope".
The result was an instant kill, with a wound that resembled a 150 SGK in a 308 at 100m in a similar pig. Dead is dead, instant despatch.
Then I tried it on a billy goat out there, same result.
Then I stopped doing that, because a goat decided to walk off just as I broke the trigger, and one out at about 750m, from memory. I don't do it anymore now for my own ethics reasons.

I use the SGK in 165 in the 300WM too, it's a super accurate bullet. I don't use it much anymore, because since the Covid clusterf*ck I found it very difficult to get them, and found the Atomic 29 bullets made here.
And since you donated me those Bertram 150's, I have really gotten on the Aussie Made trip, so I asked others what they thought by making this thread.

I write all this in defence of the SGK, because it's a typically very accurate bullet as all Sierras DNA seems to be, and it works absolutely great on the game/feral animals I have here, which would cover most of Aus. In my experience using them, they are superior to any tipped bullet for consistency there. IMHO, tipped bullets are fancy hollow-points with tips that probably melt off before they get to the targets anyway.
You can't fight fashion, or marketing BS, it seems.
Except for the larger stuff of course, which I'd consider to be lean muscley scrub cattle and upwards.

So, that brings me back to the thread, Woodleighs.

[Fester]

Yeah, the Game King just gets different reports and I don't get to shoot enough animals to judge for myself.
I have killed deer with GKs and they worked with 1 good chest shot, same as Federal blue box ammo, really.

Different cals are going to do different things as well, with different projies.

I believe despite blokes using .223s to kill fallow meaties and small pigs, it is not what the cal is for.
I bet they change their minds when they lose a big buck, or a cranky old bore just charges them after shooting him with a pea-gun-sized bullet.

I just use a 6.5x55 and place my shots for the double lung. I feel it is minimal, but a suitable cal for everything I hunt.

I will use it if a shot opportunity presents on a red, or sambar hind, but I feel the Sambar stags are getting into a larger animal, requiring a bit more gun.
We only see reds in the local area, but they are a bit soft and easily killed from what I hear.

Can never have too much gun, but I build up one step at a time, and I don't know how big a gun I can still shoot without losing accuracy.
I will step up after all this NSW crap, but for now we don't even know what's really going on.
If they don't know what they are doing, I will do nothing until about the second last week of the steal back.
And won't they be flooded on that week lol

[bigrich]

Yeah, the Game King just gets different reports and I don't get to shoot enough animals to judge for myself.
I have killed deer with GKs and they worked with 1 good chest shot, same as Federal blue box ammo, really.

Different cals are going to do different things as well, with different projies.

I believe despite blokes using .223s to kill fallow meaties and small pigs, it is not what the cal is for.
I bet they change their minds when they lose a big buck, or a cranky old bore just charges them after shooting him with a pea-gun-sized bullet.

I just use a 6.5x55 and place my shots for the double lung. I feel it is minimal, but a suitable cal for everything I hunt.

I will use it if a shot opportunity presents on a red, or sambar hind, but I feel the Sambar stags are getting into a larger animal, requiring a bit more gun.
We only see reds in the local area, but they are a bit soft and easily killed from what I hear.

Can never have too much gun, but I build up one step at a time, and I don't know how big a gun I can still shoot without losing accuracy.
I will step up after all this NSW crap, but for now we don't even know what's really going on.
If they don't know what they are doing, I will do nothing until about the second last week of the steal back.
And won't they be flooded on that week lol

besides the 150's out of my 308 , the only other GK i've used on game was the 225gn out of a 358win i had years ago . typical sierra , clover leafs at 100 with a 1.5-5 loopy scope . my eyes were a bit sharper then . your 6.5x55 will kill sambar , you just need the right bullet . a bullet that stays together with good expansion and penetration . like say a woodleigh , and putting it in the right spot . every 6.5 swede owner had heard of Kilimanjaro bell , and his elephant hunting with the swede . i've just never gotten around to playing with GK much as other stuff has performed well for me . except for the 165gn nosler ballistic tips out of the 30-06 i described in a earlier post . can never have too much gun ? get, or build yourself a 35 whelen !

[bigrich]

Yeah Rich, Fester was wondering about the SGK (Sierra Game King) and how it went, I thought I'd try and describe it against the plastic-tipped hollow-points, which is basically what they are.
Not sure why, but a lot of people especially the newer shooters apparently, sidestep the SGK's in any cal for the plastic tipped of any maker.
Hey, Barnes even did it from pressure, even though the designs they had already with a machined copper tip mono construction worked so well. The design needs a hollow point to insert the tip into.

I have a load that shoots really small groups, day after day, in a 338 Lapua Mag using a 250gn Sierra Matchking. I saw these 250gn SGK's in the gunshop, and wondered if they'd be a good substitution up to 500m across gullies and ridges here to what larger game like pigs when they were pulled up, digging their damn holes.
They absolutely were, in every respect in that rifle, spot on at all ranges I'd had recorded "Dope" on, and shot the same touching 5-shot clusters at 100.
Then I hiked out where the pigs were digging up tree roots and set up the TRG on it's Sako bipod, and whacked a 3/4 boar just behind the shoulder bone from that same distance I'd had a gong sitting and had practiced on with the SMK's earlier and gotten that "dope".
The result was an instant kill, with a wound that resembled a 150 SGK in a 308 at 100m in a similar pig. Dead is dead, instant despatch.
Then I tried it on a billy goat out there, same result.
Then I stopped doing that, because a goat decided to walk off just as I broke the trigger, and one out at about 750m, from memory. I don't do it anymore now for my own ethics reasons.

I use the SGK in 165 in the 300WM too, it's a super accurate bullet. I don't use it much anymore, because since the Covid clusterf*ck I found it very difficult to get them, and found the Atomic 29 bullets made here.
And since you donated me those Bertram 150's, I have really gotten on the Aussie Made trip, so I asked others what they thought by making this thread.

I write all this in defence of the SGK, because it's a typically very accurate bullet as all Sierras DNA seems to be, and it works absolutely great on the game/feral animals I have here, which would cover most of Aus. In my experience using them, they are superior to any tipped bullet for consistency there. IMHO, tipped bullets are fancy hollow-points with tips that probably melt off before they get to the targets anyway.
You can't fight fashion, or marketing BS, it seems.
Except for the larger stuff of course, which I'd consider to be lean muscley scrub cattle and upwards.

So, that brings me back to the thread, Woodleighs.

geez mate , you've done some long range feral sniping . the only long range work i'd considered doing was on paddock rats , as their quite skittish on the property up the road from you . was thinking a 243 would be up for the job . GK's can be silly accurate , no doubt about that . looking forward to hearing about your experimenting with the woodleighs you bought . once i run out of the bullet stocks i have for my hunting rifles i'll consider giving woodleighs a go myself

[Wapiti]

Well what was great about it was something I didn't twig to for quite awhile as I've always seen that rifle as something that I don't shoot much because components are expensive and hard to get usually - target bullets in .338 are expensive, around here anyway.
You also take great care of the cases, because a new 100 box is bloody dear.
Now, the Gamekings in 250gn 338 are way cheaper than Matchkings and for any shooting within 750yds (that's as far as I've used them) I can substitute for projectiles more than twice as much $$$. Right now, good old Cleavers has them for $74.95/50, whereas the Matchkings I've been waiting so long for came yesterday in the mail from The Barn, and on special they were $120.
So practice, shoots with friends or fellow graziers who like their heavy-barrel rifles too, I use them.
That usually raises eyebrows, why I'm using hunting bullets in those rifles, because people aren't aware of how exceptionally accurate Gameking's are.

I'm hoping the Woodleighs are too, but with these, I'm only looking for acceptable hunting accuracy, more after the end performance.

[Wapiti]

So I got time to load the 150gn Bertram bullets to suit a Sako 85 Hunter I have, and that I'd like to use to shoot them in.
The bag that the Richman donated.
But first I had to get the specs to seat them. I was after 20 thou from the rifling.

I used the comparator too and the 308 modified case from the stash. I tried to do it other ways but just couldn't jag it. So I took a number of measurements with all individual bullets. There was a little bit if inconsistency, but the seating die I use will make them all uniform when loaded.
The projectiles are only in the case about 3mm when touching the rifling. They will be in an extra 20 thou average more than that.though.
I will crimp them in too.

Comparator.jpg (684.49 KiB) Viewed 110 times

The neck sizing die was set up with a 3 thou interference (grip) fit, a thou more than I would usually for target ammo. But this stuff is going to be fed from the magazine in the field, so none of that.

Bullets view.jpg (695.08 KiB) Viewed 110 times

Chunky bullets, with a protected point so no deformation getting a hard time, good idea.
The full 5-shot Sako 308 magazine is not only brilliant in that you can top-feed individual cartridges without taking the mag out, but there's heaps of room to seat bullets right out, unlike the plastic-magazine rifles. It's also stainless steel. In the blued Sakos, they have a bottom metal that's blued, so it looks like a custom floorplate. This one is a stainless steel rifle.

Magazine fit.jpg (678.32 KiB) Viewed 110 times

Anyway I'll have to find another afternoon to test them, because a big rainstorm came over and hammered the joint until dark. Never whinge about rain.
Anyway, until next time.

[Wapiti]

So I had a go late this afternoon finally, but with only one rifle.
I will try another one as well another day, hunting type rifles only. Not after match one-holers.
Loads were: 43gns 2206H, and 45gns 2208. 20 thou from the rifling. Mild loads, 3-shots only.

All were loaded in the mag, and all shots one after another, no cooling considered, just like firing 3 shots when in the paddock in real life.
The rifle used, a Sako 85 laminated Stainless with a 22" barrel.
It shoots very nicely with my hunting handloads, and also I just discovered it cloverleafs with the 150gn PMC softpoints too. So we'll see how it likes Bruce's bullets.

Sako85Lam308.jpg (686.18 KiB) Viewed 51 times

The numbers 2206H

43-2206HSako85Lam.jpg (688.6 KiB) Viewed 51 times

The numbers 2208

45-88Sako85Lam.jpg (696.53 KiB) Viewed 51 times

And the target.
Rich said he was not happy with the results he got with these bullets, and I'm not either.
20 thou off the lands, once fired cases, flash-holes deburred, neck bushing sized only, straight-line seating dies, SFA runout.

Target.jpg (690.76 KiB) Viewed 51 times

I will try them in my Wife's Sako Carbon-Light next, a very light carry-rifle that shoots very nice groups with Sierra 135 and 150gn hunting bullets.
I have 8208 and BM2 at the other place, but not here. I do have heaps of 748 though.

[Damo300]

2206h is working alright.
Touch slower in speed than the 08 too.
Slow them up a touch more.


'Were me, I'd try some @ 42.5gr of 2206h, and push them in a touch more. Go 40 thou. Bit more jump.
Look around the 2680fps mark.


Also, my new Goto is bedding.
If the rifle ain't bedded properly, forget it.
I wasted lots of rounds chasing bedding issues.

[Wapiti]

Good tips, i might try that.

On the bedding here, that rifle is stock standard and has proven it's extremely accurate as is, so I won't touch what is working already.
Nowadays, just like cars, I buy what does what I expect in rifles like that, and if I have to play around with it I'm not happy.
If I bought a Howa, I'd expect to have to change out a stock or floorplate or whatever. But we never have needed to touch these Sakos, thank goodness.

OK, so you reckon throttle it down a bit, and push the bullets in another 20 thou? I will give that a go.


Thank goodness for the "Edit" function, my spelling and predictive text is really mucking me around.

[Damo300]

Good tips, i might try that.

On the bedding here, that rifle is stock standard and has proven it's extremely accurate as is, so I won't touch what is working already.
Nowadays, just like cars, I buy what does what I expect in rifles like that, and if I have to play around with it I'm not happy.
If I bought a Howa, I'd expect to have to change out a stock or floorplate or whatever. But we never have needed to touch these Sakos, thank goodness.

OK, so you reckon throttle it down a bit, and push the bullets in another 20 thou? I will give that a go.


Thank goodness for the "Edit" function, my spelling and predictive text is really mucking me around.

I'm seeing a tighter group with them slowed down. 2750 is cooking for 308. 2700 is shooting alot nicer. Speeds are more consistent.
Pushing them in gives more jump and reduces pressure. May not throw a wonky one.

I'd be interested to see a group of 5.
I've had rifles that will shoot 2 clover leaf groups about an inch apart in a 5 shot group. 3 in one, 2 in another an inch to the left.
I found this to be stock bedding.
That's why I asked about that. Wondered if your stray to the left may be another group forming.

I'm just a dunce though...and tend to over think things...

I have 80HD...

[bigrich]

So I had a go late this afternoon finally, but with only one rifle.
I will try another one as well another day, hunting type rifles only. Not after match one-holers.
Loads were: 43gns 2206H, and 45gns 2208. 20 thou from the rifling. Mild loads, 3-shots only.

All were loaded in the mag, and all shots one after another, no cooling considered, just like firing 3 shots when in the paddock in real life.
The rifle used, a Sako 85 laminated Stainless with a 22" barrel.
It shoots very nicely with my hunting handloads, and also I just discovered it cloverleafs with the 150gn PMC softpoints too. So we'll see how it likes Bruce's bullets.

Sako85Lam308.jpg

The numbers 2206H

43-2206HSako85Lam.jpg

The numbers 2208

45-88Sako85Lam.jpg

And the target.
Rich said he was not happy with the results he got with these bullets, and I'm not either.
20 thou off the lands, once fired cases, flash-holes deburred, neck bushing sized only, straight-line seating dies, SFA runout.

Target.jpg

I will try them in my Wife's Sako Carbon-Light next, a very light carry-rifle that shoots very nice groups with Sierra 135 and 150gn hunting bullets.
I have 8208 and BM2 at the other place, but not here. I do have heaps of 748 though.

hey mate , your results are same as mine with group size, same powder charge that works in my 308 tikka too . i had my tikka bedded into it's bell & carlson stock , shot much better than previously . down to .2" @ 100 off a bench rest with 150 sierra GK's . so bedding wasn't a issue with bertrams in my rifle . yeah, like i said when i gave you that bag of bertrams they'll be okay for pigs at 100 . hopefully they'll shoot better in your wife's rifle , but they could turn out to be dynamite on game , like a woodleigh or a rem corelok . you can achieve "minute of pig" with them , that's what really matters . cheers

[Wapiti]

Yeah the Woodleighs were posted by Rebels on Monday, according to the updates from their online store, but for some reason didn't arrive in the Aust Post Hilux on Friday. Maybe on next weeks delivery.
I dunno how Cleavers get stuff here so fast... honestly if I do an online order on a Tuesday night, it's here with Fridays post delivery every time. And it's never Express Post marked.

[Fester]

Great info from this thread, I just re-read the page, and will re-read the lot at some stage.

That load that Wapiti did was funny- the figures and unbeatable SD, but a so-so group.
I have always just load developed with a 100yd group size, and if I get good figures, like high single-digit SDs, fine; if I don't, tough.

It sounds like some rifles can shoot Woodleighs well, and the ones they sort of design for a cal could help that.
For me, just shooting them in a mountain-weight 6.5x55 rifle that didn't love 140s at the best of times, they were never going to shoot like Game Kings.
I only persisted because the rifle shot the std factory Federal PowerShok 140 SP ammo really well.
The only time I have ever been chasing factory ammo accuracy with my reloading, lol.

Another funny thing is how well GKs can shoot with rough soft-point projectiles, compared to these perfectly shaped, high BC plastic tips.

Great thread guys, keep it up, and anything projectile is not drifting too far.

[bigrich]

Yeah the Woodleighs were posted by Rebels on Monday, according to the updates from their online store, but for some reason didn't arrive in the Aust Post Hilux on Friday. Maybe on next weeks delivery.
I dunno how Cleavers get stuff here so fast... honestly if I do an online order on a Tuesday night, it's here with Fridays post delivery every time. And it's never Express Post marked.

maybe cleaver shoot their packages out of a cannon to your local post office