Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 223

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Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 223

Post by Cooper » 02 Aug 2018, 12:06 pm

Ok I think I possibly have more than one issue here. I've found a way around it. But would like to get to the bottom of it.

I've bought a 1000 bulk pack of the Speer 52 grain hollow point. They are the flat base version not the boat tail match version. I've loaded plenty of flat base bullets before. Hornady roo max/Berger 52 gr flat base and Speer 52gr HP out of a 100 pack before I bought the 1000 pack. All without apparent issue.

So I sized my case with Lee collet die. The cases are probably on their 8th reload and I haven't annealed the necks. Upon seating the bullet it is apparent that there was initial resistance and them nothing. I can move the bullet with my fingers.

So I pull my Collet dies apart thinking it must be dirty or seized up. Everything appears in order so I put it back together. Increase the tension on the die another 1/4 of a turn and try sizing another case. Same problem
Start looking at bullets thinking they must be undersized seconds or something.
I chamfered the case necks and tried again. Same problem I can push the projectile with my fingers.

I'd already primed up the other cases. When I remember that I had a Universal Hornady 22 cal neck sizer that I could easily pull the decapping pin out of to try sizing the cases a different way.
The story is dragging on a bit... So after using the Hornady neck die I could seat the projectile and not move it with my finger pressure. So problem sloved. Kind of. But I still like to get to the bottom of it?

My main thoughts are the bullets (projectiles) appear to be thinker at base (measuring with Verniers) I can get .224.5 right at the base whereas the rest of the bullets appear to be .224. I measured a 50gr Zmax which starts with a Boat tail and most of the bullets appears to be .224.5. But these measurements are easily malnipulated and not really that accurate.

The mandel in my Lee die is .222. It has been lightly polished

The other thing is the brass is a bit old of maybe it has lost some of its elasticity.?

Happy for any input? Thinking I'll buy another mandel for my Lee die and polish the one I have a bit further and maybe try annealing the cases and see if that makes a difference.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Bills Shed » 02 Aug 2018, 1:39 pm

OK, I have a few questions and assumptions. I take it you have used a Lee collet before without issue, hence you think it is the projectiles. Did you only seat the two projectiles and then move over to the universal dies and was it the same cases that you sized in the universal die?
My first instinct is that you have cracked the neck. Eight reloads and no annealing and then seat a flat base. You stated that there was initial resistance and then nothing, classic cracked neck. I could be totally wrong.
Ref the diameter, .2245" sounds a bit big but Vernias are not ideal. I build my projectiles to .2243" but have gone as low as .2238" with no loss in accuracy. Even if the projectile has a fat base and that base is pushed down past the neck into the shoulder the spring back in the brass would still hold it. Get a piece of steel wool and polish the outside of the loose necks and have a real good look with a projectile in the neck.

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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by sungazer » 02 Aug 2018, 3:17 pm

The Lee neck collet die only sizes about 3/4 of the neck or less so if the projectile does not have the correct bearing surface diameter for the lenght you are seating them. Then yes you may have a problem. Also the neck is probably getting a bit hard and could be benefited by an Anneal.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by bigfellascott » 02 Aug 2018, 3:28 pm

The last time I had this problem it was me not adjusting the die correctly, I just had to screw it in more from memory to fix the problem (been a long time since having the prob so can't really remember what I did but think I just had to screw the die down more to fix it) not sure if it was a lee die or not but do use em for the 223. :unknown:

Will add that everytime I've had issues with seating or neck sizing it's been my not adjusting the die correctly in the first place, soon realise the issue and adjust them down until they adjust the neck tension etc. :thumbsup:
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 02 Aug 2018, 4:57 pm

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Ok so I annealed the cases. First time I've done it definaltely got the first one a bit hot. Just used my drill and a Map gas Turbo torch.

I only did 5. When they cooled went and sized them with Lee Collet die. Felt a little better. But the most obvious thing was the case was slight sucking on the decapping mandrel on the way out. So it does appear the brass had work hardened and annealing seemed to have fixed it to some degree.


Now for the rest test...

So I seated Speer 52 gr HP in the case. Same problem! I can push the projectile with my fingers. Far out!

I run one of the annealed case through the Hornady neck sizer. Seems good. Projectile is gripped pretty well.

I've never had this problem before. So I used the Lee a Collet die to resize the other 3 case and seated a 50gr Zmax and 55gr Sierra super roo which was were both held snugly in the case. For good measure I seated a Flat base Hornady Roo Max! No problems can't move it with finger pressure

Whatever is going on its only happening with 52gr Speer projectiles. Everything else is working the same. Just as it has in the past for me.

I dunno. The Speer 52gr definaltely appear slightly bigger at the base. Maybe the collet is putting a slight taper on the neck when it sizes it and when I push the Speer projectile into the neck it is opening up. Maybe the Hornady die is working because it is kind of doing the opposite. The neck might be tighter closer to the shoulder of the case. Because the expander is getting pulled back through it.

Still confused. Thanks for the ideas so far. I really appreciate it.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 02 Aug 2018, 6:06 pm

Next thing I’m going to try is full length sizing the case and see what happens to the neck tension. I have both a Lee full length size die and a Forster full length size die.

If that doesn’t work

I have some brand new ADI cases which I load and fire and see if the neck tension issue reoccurs when using the Lee Collet die.

After that I guess the next step is a Bushing die. So I can control the neck tension I want.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by marksman » 02 Aug 2018, 6:10 pm

its the die adjustment
the fingers have spread, they may have and edge set in stopping them from closing properly :unknown:
I'm sorry but I have to go out and do some work so I don't have the time to google the answer for you but if you try you will most likely find it for yourself
have had the same problem many years ago
good luck :thumbsup:
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 02 Aug 2018, 8:59 pm

marksman wrote:its the die adjustment
the fingers have spread, they may have and edge set in stopping them from closing properly :unknown:
I'm sorry but I have to go out and do some work so I don't have the time to google the answer for you but if you try you will most likely find it for yourself
have had the same problem many years ago
good luck :thumbsup:


So a Collet die problem is looking like the main cause.

I say this because the Lee a Full Length sizing die provides adequate tension to grip the Speer 52gr HP Flat base.

I pulled the Collet die apart again. It does have tooling marks, this is pretty common apparently. There was a bit (tiny amount) of pitting on one of the fingers. I've pretty polished the tooling marks away and ran the Mandrel in drill with fine sand paper until it is nice and shinny. Put some new grease on moving surfaces.

I using a Lee press. So set the die up as per their instructions. Screw the due in until it's makes contact with shell holder, then two full turns and increase 1/4 of a turn if more pressure is required. Same results as before. Inadequate neck tension with the 52gr projectiles.

I'll have another play tomorrow. Hopefully a fresh set of eyes sees the problem. It is doing my head in. It's clearly a problem with the Collet die. I think!
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 03 Aug 2018, 4:10 pm

So today I try putting my 20 cal mandrel out of 204 Collet dies In my 223 die. This proved to me that the Collet in my 223 die is operating correctly. The only thing that is stopping the case being sized smaller is the mandrel (decapping pin)
Mine is .222 but I have now polished it down to .221. It still needs a bit more. Maybe another half a thou.

I've ordered a new mandrel same size as my original and I'll wait till it arrives before I modify my existing mandrel any further.

I've also originised a Forster neck bushing with five bushings .244/ .245/ .246/ .247/ .248. The .248 is for Lapua 223 brass (might need .247) I reckon the ADI brass will need around .245 or .246. But I thought I better grab the .244 as well

Anyway I am well and truely over playing with my 223 Collet die and these Speer 52gr projectiles. When I get my bushing die I'll work out what neck tension is required and modify the mandrel in 223 Collet die to suit. Hopefully that is the end of it!
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by sungazer » 03 Aug 2018, 4:56 pm

Seems like a lot of expense and work for 1 projectile that will then make the neck tension on all your other projectiles really tight.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by No1_49er » 03 Aug 2018, 6:12 pm

But he did buy a bulk pack of 1000, so it could be a while before he has to worry about neck tension for another projectile.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by sungazer » 03 Aug 2018, 6:59 pm

A ha forgot about that small detail. I think I may try to sell them on :D
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 03 Aug 2018, 7:21 pm

No1_49er wrote:But he did buy a bulk pack of 1000, so it could be a while before he has to worry about neck tension for another projectile.


Yeah. I just want to get to bottom of it. I do have 1000 of Speer projectiles and several thousand of the Sierra super Roos and several thousand of the Zmax projectiles. I don't think I'll be buying anymore of the Speer flat base projectiles. But they do seem to shoot very well. Mainly out of my Weatherby. I have two 223s.

So I've decided to spend another couple of hundred on dies. The bushings alone are $25 each. And a new mandrel for my Collet die was only $10. But I am going to be able select and adjust for my desired neck tension for which ever projectile I choose to use.

Trust me I spent more time thinking about this and scratching my head than I wanted too....

Hopefully next week I raving about how good the bushing die is or I've got Collet die working with the 52gr Speer HP.
Fingers crossed!
Last edited by Cooper on 03 Aug 2018, 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 03 Aug 2018, 7:28 pm

sungazer wrote:A ha forgot about that small detail. I think I may try to sell them on :D


I'm going to wait til they are off special. I think they are $159 or $169 at moment per 1000. :sarcasm:

Seriously though if somebody who has a Lee collet die wants to try them. I'll happily send them some for free to try. Just pm you details and I'll put them in the post.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by marksman » 03 Aug 2018, 7:38 pm

this is not what I was looking for but may help
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?498 ... Adjustment
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 03 Aug 2018, 8:36 pm

marksman wrote:this is not what I was looking for but may help
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?498 ... Adjustment


Thanks. That is a very good description on how to adjust the Die correctly.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by trekin » 04 Aug 2018, 4:52 am

Cooper wrote:
No1_49er wrote:But he did buy a bulk pack of 1000, so it could be a while before he has to worry about neck tension for another projectile.


Yeah. I just want to get to bottom of it. I do have 1000 of Speer projectiles and several thousand of the Sierra super Roos and several thousand of the Zmax projectiles. I don't think I'll be buying anymore of the Speer flat base projectiles. But they do seem to shoot very well. Mainly out of my Weatherby. I have two 223s.

So I've decided to spend another couple of hundred on dies. The bushings alone are $25 each. And a new mandrel for my Collet die was only $10. But I am going to be able select and adjust for my desired neck tension for which ever projectile I choose to use.

Trust me I spent more time thinking about this and scratching my head than I wanted too....

Hopefully next week I raving about how good the bushing die is or I've got Collet die working with the 52gr Speer HP.
Fingers crossed!

Reading though the discription of your problem, my suggestion to a much simpler, and cheaper option would be to buy a Lee crimp die.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Aug 2018, 8:37 am

" I dunno. The Speer 52gr definaltely appear slightly bigger at the base."

As the issue is only with that bullet I'd suggest that is the problem. :huh:

In any case, I'm sure I'll be corrected here. But if I want to neck size I just screw my FLS die out about 1 turn. Just neck sizes about 2/3 of the neck then. Works for me. But I'm not a target shooter.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Cooper » 04 Aug 2018, 10:09 am

trekin wrote:
Cooper wrote:
No1_49er wrote:But he did buy a bulk pack of 1000, so it could be a while before he has to worry about neck tension for another projectile.


!

Reading though the discription of your problem, my suggestion to a much simpler, and cheaper option would be to buy a Lee crimp die.



Yep! I already have the Lee ultimate set with the factory crimp die. I never found the need to use it in the past. I've put a slight crimp on the loads I've loaded just to be sure. I also tested them for accuracy and their appears no change.

Sungazer has kindy offered to try the projectiles. So I'll get him some next week. I'm kind of hoping he experiences the same problems as me. But time will tell I guess.
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Re: Loss of neck tension when seating flat base Speer 52hp 2

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 04 Aug 2018, 8:29 pm

I tend to agree with treken. Sometimes the simplest option is a good one to try. Use the crimp die on the speers... just very light crimp
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