Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:11 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Gaz by the sound of it you need to run that batch of cases through a fl sizer mate...! Bump them puffy shoulders & fat bodies back.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:16 pm

TheDude wrote:The Forster one definitely bumps the shoulder. It’s onoy doing it 1-2 thou depending on how far you screw the die in. It doesn’t support the body of the case below the shoulder but not seen any bulging.

The Redding bushing dies just do the necks.

Thanks for the clarification dude.

Im thinking of getting one to try.

How do you lube for that bump with that die dude...?
Do you have to lube the shoulder...? Can it be done with just a little graphite...?
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by hunting99 » 06 Aug 2018, 10:17 pm

I use lee dies, I FLS when the brass starts sticking in the chamber
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:20 pm

Thanks for the explanation Rod :thumbsup:

Im really not up with all these different dies available so its very helpful.

Im thinking of getting one to try, cos thats what we do isnt it(?) Spend money on stuff.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 07 Aug 2018, 7:45 am

No... you send me your money so I can buy stuff... so you actually make 2 lol happy....hahaha

Well I am gonna get some projectiles, actually lots of projectiles, have 400 on order for the 6.5 and I might as well get a couple of boxes of the 155s for the 308 (of 500)
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 07 Aug 2018, 10:13 am

Stix wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Gaz by the sound of it you need to run that batch of cases through a fl sizer mate...! Bump them puffy shoulders & fat bodies back.


I think I'll have to by the sound of it. There is an empty slot in the die set box anyway that really puts out the whole Feng Shui of my reloading bench. :roll:

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Rod_outbak » 07 Aug 2018, 11:06 am

[quote="Stix"]
Thanks for the explanation Rod :thumbsup:
Im really not up with all these different dies available so its very helpful.
Im thinking of getting one to try, cos thats what we do isnt it(?) Spend money on stuff.
[/quote]

Yep; spending money on 'stuff' IS what we do!
[A new Forster co-axial press has been delivered as I type this, and I have to fight the urge to unpack it and set it up, as I am SUPPOSED to be locked in the office; unravelling the mess that is the overdue bookwork....]
Not sure how long I'll be able to resist, though..

Just keep in mind that if you are buying the bushing die, you have to buy the bushings to suit(if you ever want to actually use it as a neck-sizer as well.)

If you are trying to tweak the neck tension on a particular batch/brand of case, then the bushings are great for allowing you to dial in just as much neck tension as you prefer. Different brands of brass have different thickness in the neck, so having the range of bushings to cover your cartridge is pretty handy.
In the case of .308, you'd be looking at a bushing range of roughly 0.332", through to 0.337". Forster used to sell each bushing die in a kit, with 3 bushings to suit the cartridge, spaced 0.002" apart in size. However, I dont think I've seen any of those for sale of late.
To give you an idea of cost, my most recent purchase of a Forster bushing Neck/Bump die(July 2018) cost $118 for the die, and $23 for each bushing(Brownells Australia).

I have to warn you, though; buying this sort of gear is way past the basic essentials, and sliding into the nit-picky end of the reloading spectrum. I havent [YET!] started following the benchrest crowd in their search for perfection, but I can hear it calling to me...

I remember my first few years at reloading ammunition solely for hunting (with a .30-30 and a VERY forgiving .243), and if it went off without exploding the rifle, then it was a good reload. Absolutely NO concept about how more consistent reloads would have more than tripled the average range I could nail game..
[Or how much less dangerous it might have been if I'd been more anal about quality control...]
These days, I'd be horrified to produce that same quality of ammo, and would destroy it before allowing anyone else to use it.

Cheers,

Rod.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gwion » 13 Aug 2018, 1:44 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Aug 2018, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gwion » 13 Aug 2018, 1:48 pm

My understanding of why the 'bushing bump' dies don't hurt the case body is that:
a/ the case is generally tapered, which is itself a supporting factor
b/ the case wall gets thicker from shoulder to case head, again a supporting factor
c/ the neck and shoulder were originally annealed to make them softer than the case body wall, again, supporting the wall and making the neck/shoulder give more readily than the case wall.
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Aug 2018, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Oryx Pit » 13 Aug 2018, 5:39 pm

Have been down that hole that is neck sizing. End up spending all this cash on bushings and your concentricity goes to crap anyway.

I've gone back to full length sizing but only bumping the should 2 thou then using a sinclair mandrel expander die for neck tension.

Has been working a treat.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Aug 2018, 7:55 pm

Gwion wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.


The ones in question are ADI and had been trimmed after the last firing and are all from the same weight batch so should I would imagine have similar wall thickness.
They've been fired 4 times, do you reckon they need annealing before full lenght sizing?.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Aug 2018, 8:24 pm

Gwion wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.


The ones in question are ADI and had been trimmed after the last firing and are all from the same weight batch so should I would imagine have similar wall thickness.
They've been fired 4 times, do you reckon they need annealing before full lenght sizing?.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gwion » 13 Aug 2018, 8:33 pm

Will need annealing sooner than later but check the trim length. Too long and they can be very tight to chamber.
Number of loads before annealing can vary greatly depending on how heaviky the brass is being worked by the load and your dies. If you have access to good annealing equipment, it is worth just setting a standard for yourself and following it, like anneal after every fourth firing, or something.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 13 Aug 2018, 8:46 pm

Gwion wrote:My understanding of why the 'bushing bump' dies don't hurt the case body is that:
a/ the case is generally tapered, which is itself a supporting factor
b/ the case wall gets thicker from shoulder to case head, again a supporting factor
c/ the neck and shoulder were originally annealed to make them softer than the case body wall, again, supporting the wall and making the neck/shoulder give more readily than the case wall.


Makes sense, thanks...

So i wonder how they (bump dies) effect the brass over time, with regard to donuts in the neck & the web of the case getting so thin that it would eventually crumple there with a bump (at the web-assuming the case doesn't separate on a firing in the chamber first) given the brass must be flowing every bump...?
(more rhetorical questions than anything, but it would be interesting to hear from anyone who has solely used a bump die & annealed regularly for the entire life of a batch of brass to see if these things lessen the life of the brass/by how much/vs accuracy/concentricity gains/consistancy...)

(Yes i know, life can be hard being a thinker with OCD...especially when the bank balance & available time dont reflect the level to which one wants to experiment)
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by sungazer » 13 Aug 2018, 9:08 pm

You said you had Lee dies so I would take the mandrel out of the FLS die and seat the die up a bit. Then size the case and try it in you gun keep winding the die down about 1/8 of a turn until the case chambers in your gun easily. Then size all your cases with this setting. Then you can use the Neck sizing die with the mandrel to size the necks.
This avoids pushing and pulling on the case neck which not only hardens it more but also is a big factor in the cases growing.
You are at the point when the case necks / shoulder should be annealed and this should be the first step before any sizing is done.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by sungazer » 13 Aug 2018, 9:18 pm

Gwion and Stix there are so many types of dies but when I want to bump a shoulder I would use a Redding Body die. This does the sizing on the case and the shoulder but not the neck. You can also use other Redding Dies I have a Neck Die that also does the body part and if you remove the bushing for the neck then it is the same as a body die. That die also has a mandrel with two different heads that a decapping pin can also be fitted to. There is a small head that can be used just to decap, body and neck bushing die, or you can use a large head on the mandrel and it will neck size to that head. You could leave the bushing in there but that would be silly as the head would expand the neck then it would be squeezed by a bushing only to be expanded when you remove the mandrel.
I hope that makes some sense. All those options are not really covered in the instructions of the die but they can be very flexible.

Stix you really shouldn't get case separations if you are mainly neck sizing with a small bump every know and then. It really is caused by oversizing with a FLS die that uses an expander ball. The first thing to go in a well looked after case should be the primer pocket.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Aug 2018, 9:25 pm

Seems I'm going to have to do some reading. I've never tried annealing and my budget doesn't have any wriggle room so it would be by hand with a butane torch and spinning them on a cordless drill.
Someone who doesn't reload just gave me 88 once fired ADI cases from Buffalo River factory loads so if I knacker a couple of older ones learning, no great loss.
Ta for the advice.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 13 Aug 2018, 9:35 pm

I am always interested in neck sizing issues. Maybe some do remember I mentioned that after 4 or 5 firings my ppu brass has gotten had to extract and slightly hard to chamber. Basically the bolt turns easily until the last 10 degrees of the turn. I find that if I push the brass just part way through a full length die it chambers fine. So I FLS a few and upon first firing the were incase again became hard to extract. But surprisingly one I pushed part way through the FLS die came out without extraction issues.

Anyway I dunno what's happening, others I ask don't know as well. So I'll just chuck the ones with the issues in the bin. I have another 250 once fired ppu brass to go through and only 300 odd zmax projectiles
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Viktor » 14 Aug 2018, 5:18 pm

Hi guys! Starting my reloading 308 win!
Checked my brass from PPU most of it under sized by books it must be 2.015” my brass is around 2.004” I’m planing to put 110 gr Nosler in it but have little concern
Brass was ones fired only from my tikka
Would like to hear your points
Thanks
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