Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

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Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 05 Aug 2018, 4:43 pm

For those of you who neck size, im curious to know what governs when you run the brass through the FL die to bump the shoulder back....?

I as a general rule i only do it when & if the brass feels tight to chamber,...but someone mentioned to me that i should be doing it every 4th firing (in as small an increment as possible-ie; anywhere from .0005"-.015"), regardless of whether it feels tight to chamber. (this for chasing accuracy & consistency with hunting rifle)

So when, & if so, how often & what governs when you bump the shoulder back on your brass...? :unknown:
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by No1_49er » 05 Aug 2018, 4:55 pm

I only bump the shoulder (with a Redding shoulder bump die - not the FLS) when the bolt is getting on the "firm" side to close.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by bigrich » 05 Aug 2018, 5:38 pm

i'm curious about this too. i'm neck sizing atm on first reloading of factory brass and have heard the same as stix. how often is advisable with annealling the neck/ shoulder ? any advice would be appreciated :thumbsup:
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by TheDude » 05 Aug 2018, 5:42 pm

I use the Forster bushing bump neck dies so bump about a thou each time. I anneal every 5th.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by bigrich » 05 Aug 2018, 5:54 pm

thanks dude. i was going to use a FL die in the same fashion as stix described, that's still a ok way of bumping the shoulder back ?
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 05 Aug 2018, 6:10 pm

TheDude wrote:I use the Forster bushing bump neck dies so bump about a thou each time. I anneal every 5th.


Maybe a silly question Dude...but what is a "bushing bump neck die"...?
Is it a FL die with neck bushing...?
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by JimTom » 05 Aug 2018, 6:16 pm

Mate I full length size every fifth reload. I have no reason or justification that every fifth time is the correct practice, it is just what I have been told and read.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by JimTom » 05 Aug 2018, 6:27 pm

Mate if you come up with any pearls on when it should be done I’d be more than interested to hear it.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by sungazer » 05 Aug 2018, 7:36 pm

Go with the Bump shoulder / FLS depending what dies you have when you start to feel a firm resistance when closing the bolt on an empty case.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by TheDude » 05 Aug 2018, 8:52 pm

Stix wrote:
TheDude wrote:I use the Forster bushing bump neck dies so bump about a thou each time. I anneal every 5th.


Maybe a silly question Dude...but what is a "bushing bump neck die"...?
Is it a FL die with neck bushing...?


It’s a neck die that uses a bushing so you can control how much neck tension but it also pushes the shoulder back. https://youtu.be/sHzysUEJOR0
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 05 Aug 2018, 10:33 pm

TheDude wrote:
Stix wrote:
TheDude wrote:I use the Forster bushing bump neck dies so bump about a thou each time. I anneal every 5th.


Maybe a silly question Dude...but what is a "bushing bump neck die"...?
Is it a FL die with neck bushing...?


It’s a neck die that uses a bushing so you can control how much neck tension but it also pushes the shoulder back. https://youtu.be/sHzysUEJOR0


Thanks Dude...
Do you (or anyone) know if the body of the case is supported in any way using this die...?

Again, maybe a stupid question, but i wonder how it works-id assume if pushing the shoulder back without a FL die would bulge out the body & thus either be tight or not chamber at all...?

Obviously you dont have this problem...
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Rod_outbak » 06 Aug 2018, 6:39 am

https://www.forsterproducts.com/product ... zing-dies/

Stix, I doubt the case is supported; they need very little (if any) case lube to be used, which suggests the case body is barely touched.
There is a video or two on that link; might answer all your questions.

I'm not sure why they dont cause the problems mentioned, but they seem to work pretty well.

Cheers,

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by sungazer » 06 Aug 2018, 8:19 am

Hey Stix the body is not supported at all really . They dont really need it as there is no pushing up. or downward resistance as the neck is already expanded it fits easily over the mandrel. The case neck moves up into an opened up area. They are set to only size about 3/4 of the neck so nothing pushes on the shoulder part either. It then just clamps softly around the brass pushing it and forming it to the size of the mandrel. A lot of force is not needed. A slow push and you can feel when the clamps contact the brass and then you feel the end stop.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 6:40 pm

Thanks guys...
Sungazee... you say they only size the neck...but dude says he bumps the shoulder back a thou as well.

I dont want to appear as stupid as i probably am, but am i missing something...?

I havnt watched the vids in Rods link yet, but i did watch the one link earlier in the thread.
Ill watch them later & hopefully they'll be clear.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by TheDude » 06 Aug 2018, 7:40 pm

The Forster one definitely bumps the shoulder. It’s onoy doing it 1-2 thou depending on how far you screw the die in. It doesn’t support the body of the case below the shoulder but not seen any bulging.

The Redding bushing dies just do the necks.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Rod_outbak » 06 Aug 2018, 9:24 pm

The difference between the Redding and Forster bushing dies often confuses the crap out of me, and of course; the damn bushings arent cross-compatible.
I am working at moving all my bushing dies across to Forster ones.
I like the idea of the Forster bushing neck/bump dies, and have a couple of them. I also have a number of Redding bushing neck-sizing dies as well.
I dont use either much; most of the time I just use my normal either neck-sizing dies, or FL sizing dies.
I did a SERIOUS village-idiot trick the other day; couldnt understand why my bushing bump die wasnt pushing the shoulder back on the .308 cases I was working on.
After a LOT of cursing, I come to the realization I'm furiously adjusting Redding bushing neck dies, and they DONT bump the shoulders at all.
Faaaaarrrrrrrrrrkkkk..!!!!
..Sigh.

In the bushing-type dies, Redding do FL sizing dies, Neck-Only sizing dies, and a separate Body-only die. This third die would allow you to 'bump' the shoulder, without working the neck, though I wonder why you wouldnt simply run them through a standard FL sizer die instead.
[I'm guessing that there would be people who want to size/tension the neck separately, and with more control as to how much.]
In the bushing-type dies, Forster do the FL sizers, Neck sizers, and a Neck/Bump die. If you remove the bushing from the Forster Neck/Bump die, it will just bump the shoulder, without working either the neck or the body. I have used this in my 7mm-08; run fired cases (that were getting a bit tight) through the Neck/Bump process with the bushing removed, and then separately run them through a standard neck-sizer die to adjust the necks. I cant remember why I didnt just work them in the one step; there was some reason I opted for the 2 steps.

L.E. Wilson also do bushing-type dies, but only the FL die is used in a normal reloading press.

I wonder if a lot of use of the Neck/Bump dies would cause a 'donut' to form in the base of the case neck? As Stix is suggesting; you do have to wonder where the excess brass is being moved to, if there isnt any obvious deformation of the case...

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by sungazer » 06 Aug 2018, 9:29 pm

I thought we were discussing the Lee Neck Collet die. It defiantly will not bump the shoulder.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Aug 2018, 9:40 pm

This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:11 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Gaz by the sound of it you need to run that batch of cases through a fl sizer mate...! Bump them puffy shoulders & fat bodies back.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:16 pm

TheDude wrote:The Forster one definitely bumps the shoulder. It’s onoy doing it 1-2 thou depending on how far you screw the die in. It doesn’t support the body of the case below the shoulder but not seen any bulging.

The Redding bushing dies just do the necks.

Thanks for the clarification dude.

Im thinking of getting one to try.

How do you lube for that bump with that die dude...?
Do you have to lube the shoulder...? Can it be done with just a little graphite...?
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by hunting99 » 06 Aug 2018, 10:17 pm

I use lee dies, I FLS when the brass starts sticking in the chamber
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Stix » 06 Aug 2018, 10:20 pm

Thanks for the explanation Rod :thumbsup:

Im really not up with all these different dies available so its very helpful.

Im thinking of getting one to try, cos thats what we do isnt it(?) Spend money on stuff.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 07 Aug 2018, 7:45 am

No... you send me your money so I can buy stuff... so you actually make 2 lol happy....hahaha

Well I am gonna get some projectiles, actually lots of projectiles, have 400 on order for the 6.5 and I might as well get a couple of boxes of the 155s for the 308 (of 500)
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 07 Aug 2018, 10:13 am

Stix wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Gaz by the sound of it you need to run that batch of cases through a fl sizer mate...! Bump them puffy shoulders & fat bodies back.


I think I'll have to by the sound of it. There is an empty slot in the die set box anyway that really puts out the whole Feng Shui of my reloading bench. :roll:

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Rod_outbak » 07 Aug 2018, 11:06 am

[quote="Stix"]
Thanks for the explanation Rod :thumbsup:
Im really not up with all these different dies available so its very helpful.
Im thinking of getting one to try, cos thats what we do isnt it(?) Spend money on stuff.
[/quote]

Yep; spending money on 'stuff' IS what we do!
[A new Forster co-axial press has been delivered as I type this, and I have to fight the urge to unpack it and set it up, as I am SUPPOSED to be locked in the office; unravelling the mess that is the overdue bookwork....]
Not sure how long I'll be able to resist, though..

Just keep in mind that if you are buying the bushing die, you have to buy the bushings to suit(if you ever want to actually use it as a neck-sizer as well.)

If you are trying to tweak the neck tension on a particular batch/brand of case, then the bushings are great for allowing you to dial in just as much neck tension as you prefer. Different brands of brass have different thickness in the neck, so having the range of bushings to cover your cartridge is pretty handy.
In the case of .308, you'd be looking at a bushing range of roughly 0.332", through to 0.337". Forster used to sell each bushing die in a kit, with 3 bushings to suit the cartridge, spaced 0.002" apart in size. However, I dont think I've seen any of those for sale of late.
To give you an idea of cost, my most recent purchase of a Forster bushing Neck/Bump die(July 2018) cost $118 for the die, and $23 for each bushing(Brownells Australia).

I have to warn you, though; buying this sort of gear is way past the basic essentials, and sliding into the nit-picky end of the reloading spectrum. I havent [YET!] started following the benchrest crowd in their search for perfection, but I can hear it calling to me...

I remember my first few years at reloading ammunition solely for hunting (with a .30-30 and a VERY forgiving .243), and if it went off without exploding the rifle, then it was a good reload. Absolutely NO concept about how more consistent reloads would have more than tripled the average range I could nail game..
[Or how much less dangerous it might have been if I'd been more anal about quality control...]
These days, I'd be horrified to produce that same quality of ammo, and would destroy it before allowing anyone else to use it.

Cheers,

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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gwion » 13 Aug 2018, 1:44 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gwion » 13 Aug 2018, 1:48 pm

My understanding of why the 'bushing bump' dies don't hurt the case body is that:
a/ the case is generally tapered, which is itself a supporting factor
b/ the case wall gets thicker from shoulder to case head, again a supporting factor
c/ the neck and shoulder were originally annealed to make them softer than the case body wall, again, supporting the wall and making the neck/shoulder give more readily than the case wall.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Oryx Pit » 13 Aug 2018, 5:39 pm

Have been down that hole that is neck sizing. End up spending all this cash on bushings and your concentricity goes to crap anyway.

I've gone back to full length sizing but only bumping the should 2 thou then using a sinclair mandrel expander die for neck tension.

Has been working a treat.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Aug 2018, 7:55 pm

Gwion wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.


The ones in question are ADI and had been trimmed after the last firing and are all from the same weight batch so should I would imagine have similar wall thickness.
They've been fired 4 times, do you reckon they need annealing before full lenght sizing?.
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Re: Neck Sizing - how long until you bump...?

Post by Gaznazdiak » 13 Aug 2018, 8:24 pm

Gwion wrote:
Gaznazdiak wrote:This subject is something I've been wondering about but being a newbie on the reloading front it was something I couldn't decide if I was just being a pedant or if it was an issue.
I am on the 5th reload of my supply of ADI brass and some of them exhibit quite a bit of resistance to closing the bolt.

I use Lee dies and only resize the necks as that is the only option with the set I have.

My first thought was that the pills weren't seated deep enough, despite using blanks set at supposedly best COAL to set my dies, but deeper seating has no appreciable effect.

What has me cofounded is that some show this and some of the same batch don't.

Another thing I've been wondering about is when should I aneal them?


Trim them all to length and see if that helps.
Only time my 223rem cases were hard to chamber, it was neck length that was the issue. Only ever neck size. Yet to have to bump the shoulder, although getting close with my OSA brass. Usually start getting split necks before the shoulder needs bumping. Somewhere between 5-7 loadings. An annealer is defo on my wish list... as are bushing bump dies.
My current empty box of brass is still looking good but was ever so firm to chamber on last firing, so I'll put them through the trimmer and chamber a few empties to see if they need a bump before I load them up again.


The ones in question are ADI and had been trimmed after the last firing and are all from the same weight batch so should I would imagine have similar wall thickness.
They've been fired 4 times, do you reckon they need annealing before full lenght sizing?.
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