Loading cast bullets in .303

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by ExArmy » 28 Aug 2018, 6:24 pm

Hi guys,

I have a tricky question regarding a suitable ADI powder for a particular hard-cast lead projectile I’m intending to reload in my .303 rifle.

My .303 rifle details / specifications are as follows:

Lee Enfield 1942 => No.1 Mk III* (this rifle is fitted with an excellent condition “H” barrel (ie. heavy barrel), and can shoot a 5 shot x 1 inch group at 100 metres using PPU 150grn factory ammunition).
Barrel Groove Dia: 0.313”
Barrel Bore Dia: 0.302” (this measurement appears to be one thou tighter than it should be at 0.303”)
Number of Rifling Lands: 5
Barrel Length: 25.5”
Rifling Twist: 1 in 10” (left-hand twist)

Both the groove & bore diameters were measured by “slugging” the barrel and then measuring the slug with a micrometer.

The hard-cast projectile I’m intending to reload has the following specifications:

Mould Manufacturer: Cast Bullet Engineering (Kingsthorpe Qld 4400 - just west of Toowoomba)
Contact: David Commens
Mob: 0457 377 310
Email: david@castbulletengineering.com.au
Email: info@castbulletengineering.com.au
Email / Contact Page: http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/contact

Mould Specifications:
Cast Bullet Engineering Mould Number / ID: 315-205GCTL Double Cavity
Mould Material: Brass
Mould Projectile Weight: 205gn (my cast projectiles weigh approximately 213 - 214gns)
Projectile Cast Diameter: 0.315”
Projectile Nose Diameter: 0.303”
Projectile Profile: Gas checked, micro-grooved & tumble lubed (I will be using the Cast Bullet Engineering “45-45-10 Liquid Lube”, which allows for slightly higher velocities than “Lee Liquid Alox” cast bullet lube)
Projectile Gas Check Shank Diameter: 0.283"
Projectile Gas Check Material: Aluminium
Mould WebSite: http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au ... ble-cavity

The projectile casting lead alloy that I will be using has the following specifications:

Cast Lead Alloy Supplier:
Northern Smelters Pty Ltd- Bris:
178 North Road, Woodridge, Qld, 4114
Ph: (07) 3208-2724

Lead Alloy Specifications:
Product Name: "2692" (ie. 2% tin, 6% antimony, 92% lead, also known as "Hardball")
BHN Hardness: approx. 16 (when cast without water quenching; water quenching the cast projectile increases the BHN hardness to approx. 21 to 22)
Lead Alloy WebSite (listed under the “Bullet Casting Alloys” sub-heading): https://www.northernsmelters.com.au/products

My intention is to cast the projectiles using the above lead alloy and water quench them to increase the BHN hardness to about 21. I will then resize the cast projectile down from 0.315” to 0.314” (ie. one thou above my barrel groove diameter of 0.313”), the projectiles will be lubed with the Cast Bullet Engineering “45-45-10 Liquid Lube” and an aluminium gas check applied / crimped.

The consensus amongst cast projectile reloaders is that the final dimension of the cast projectile should be at least one thou above groove diameter, or even two thou above groove diameter.

I currently have three reloading manuals:
ADI Handloaders Guide – 9th Edition (2016)
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – 4th Edition (2017)
Lyman Reloading Handbook – 50th Edition (2017)

Both of the above Lyman manuals list reloading data for a 200gn (0.313” dia), cast projectile to suit a 0.313” groove diameter barrel, but unfortunately there is no reloading data for 0.314” diameter cast projectile.

From the “ADI Powder Equivalents” chart there are three powders that are listed in the above Lyman manuals, that have ADI equivalents:

Unique => AP70N
IMR 4227 => AR2205
IMR 4198 => AR2207

My question is; has anyone any load data that would suit the above situation?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
ExArmy
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 7
Queensland

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by No1Mk3 » 28 Aug 2018, 6:45 pm

G'day ExArmy,
No one I know has had much success with AP70 regarding consistency of ignition, and most of us get unburnt powder with 2205. I have not tried 2207 but I did use 32.0 of AR2206H with some fairly good results at 100m, 220g cast, gas checked. Now most of are loading Trailboss for cast 303 and 7.62x54R as we all tend to shoot no more than 200m with these cartridges. The only other load I have tried is a compressed load of 3F Black Powder, very messy but enormous laugh! Best of luck, and look forward to hearing your progress, Cheers.
No1Mk3
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2090
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by vmaxaust » 28 Aug 2018, 8:49 pm

[quote="ExArmy"]Hi guys,

I have a tricky question regarding a suitable ADI powder for a particular hard-cast lead projectile I’m intending to reload in my .303 rifle.

You can't really go wrong with AR2006H. I have 4 Enfields, 2 Jungle, one No.3 and one No.4 I've never slugged my barrels so I have no clue as to what final size projectile would be optimum for any of my rifles. I can however tell you that I cast a 174gr projectile using the same Northern Smelters lead you are using. I final size them to .3125" after Hi Tech coating them twice. I then do a final (third) Hi Tech coating which brings them up to .313"

I do not use gas checks. The Hi Tech coatings negates the need for this. I used to use off the shelf 174gr boat tail jacketed with 36.2gr AR2006H and achieve 2300-2400 fps velocities fired out of the No.3. Firing the same out of the Jungle carbine saw 200fps lower velocities.

With my cast bullets which incidentally are consistently 17 BHN hardness using the Northern Smelters 92.6.2 lead before and after the Hi Tech coating is applied, I used 28gr of the same powder. Bullet seating depth was quite close to the jacketed bullet. I did not have a chronograph to check velocity when I fired these rounds through the No.3 but I estimated it would be at least 1800-1900fps. The recoil was lighter and no undue pressure signs were evident. The best part was zero leading of bore and rifling grooves.

I have not have an opportunity to load more of these after firing about 50 the first time out. I will chrono next time and load some with up to about 33-34gr of the same powder.

Accuracy? I'm an open sights shooter and very happy to see the paper target simply get hit at 100 meters within a 10" to 12" circle size. I feel the accuracy would be very good on a sand bag rest and careful aiming. I'm not that type of shooter, looking for the n'th degree of accuracy. The purpose of my test was and still is to determine if the cast lead bullets with Hi Tech coating can be loaded at close to jacketed velocities without gas checks and without leading of bores. So far this has been the case but I want to find the limit of these bullets with this coating. I believe it will be close to jacketed.

The reason for this test is that I see no point buying jacketed bullets for anything other than the hottest loads. I've been casting handgun bullets in 9mm, 38/357 and 45ACP with this coating and you simply never need jacketed bullets or copper coated versions when this coating produces such amazing results.

Bottom line, I don't think you could go wrong using the AR2006H powder with your setup.
vmaxaust
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by bladeracer » 28 Aug 2018, 9:57 pm

I use AR2206H and Trailboss.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by No1_49er » 28 Aug 2018, 10:51 pm

Cast bullets_303Br.GIF
cast 303 load data
Cast bullets_303Br.GIF (150.21 KiB) Viewed 6979 times

This might help. Not ADI, but may give you a clue.
Proud member of "the powerful gun lobby" of Australia :)
No1_49er
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 823
Queensland

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by ExArmy » 29 Aug 2018, 9:53 am

Thank you so much guys, I really appreciate your time and effort in responding. All this info has certainly given me some direction and I will keep you posted as to how it all works out once I get a chance to do some reloading and test firing.
ExArmy
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 7
Queensland

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by in2anity » 29 Aug 2018, 10:05 am

Hi mate I think you're on the right track with your powders. As aforementioned, another powder that can work with lead is 06. I regularly shoot checkless lead out of my 30cals (30/30 and 308); 07 seems pretty ideal. I'd ladder 20-25gr of 07 under a checked pill, slightly lower for checkless. In saying that, TB is a no brainer and just perfect for practising. Around 10gn of TB is good for 30cal rifle. 18-20gr of 05 also works well for checkless pills You could also try lilgun if you're feeling adventurous. One word of caution - just be VERY careful with Unique in a rifle case - a double charge will NOT end well! GLHF
Last edited by in2anity on 29 Aug 2018, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by ExArmy » 29 Aug 2018, 10:13 am

vmaxaust - could you include a web link to the Hi Tech coatings website or any other info you have, as I'd like to do some research on these coatings. Thanks again.
ExArmy
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 7
Queensland

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by vmaxaust » 30 Aug 2018, 6:52 am

ExArmy wrote:vmaxaust - could you include a web link to the Hi Tech coatings website or any other info you have, as I'd like to do some research on these coatings. Thanks again.


Suggest you watch these and then if interested get in touch with the coating manufacturer in NSW. Don't know if they will sell small quantities but I suppose you can ask. If all you want is a little to give it a try I can mail you some. The key to success is a good oven that can maintain temperature to around 200C and must be a fan forced type to rapidly circulate heat throughout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6MoF8u4rHk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnBVfGzwyuM

Contact Joe at J&M if you want to buy the coating powder after viewing these examples of the coating process for the home caster or production guy. He will not like selling tiny quantities so don't even ask if all you want is enough to coat a few hundred pieces. I can supply you smaller quantities. It's not very expensive.
jandmspecializedproducts@gmail.com

The funny thing is the yanks have taken 20 plus years to just now begin to use this process. The projectile makers in the U.S are really trying to put the boot into this Aussie invention but shooters are not stupid. In the U.S the Hi Tech coated cast bullets have already reached nearly 15% volume out of the projectile market and the big boys making jacketed and copper plated bullets are not happy.
Attachments
20180515_141543.jpg
20180515_141543.jpg (675.38 KiB) Viewed 6928 times
vmaxaust
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by sungazer » 31 Aug 2018, 11:56 am

So Vmaxaust Not sure if I have this right but the manufacturer is in Australia? The website seems to be American and the Utube also US.
Anyway how much did you have to buy and what sort of $ are we talking? and how many bullets (vary on size of course) but aprox?
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by vmaxaust » 31 Aug 2018, 2:41 pm

sungazer wrote:So Vmaxaust Not sure if I have this right but the manufacturer is in Australia? The website seems to be American and the Utube also US.
Anyway how much did you have to buy and what sort of $ are we talking? and how many bullets (vary on size of course) but aprox?


Yes, maker is in Australia. He doesn't have a website. His U.S distributor has the site you probably looked at. Doesn't matter who put up the videos, the source is Australian. I don't know if any Aussies have posted videos on the subject. I may do one if I get the time.

The coating powder costs around $100.00 a kilogram. You mix 20grams of the powder with 100ml of pure acetone to make the solution. This 100mls will coat lots of bullets. You do the coating twice and use about 12-13mls of solution for every 2.5kg of bullets. The photo I included shows 135gr 9mm bullets and 2.5kg of those is about 285 pieces. You do the maths...it's pretty cheap even when you add the acetone. The real cost is time, an electric oven but really the results are amazing.

I was at the range this morning shooting my 200gr round nose 45ACP bullets and the barrel has only carbon and firing residue. Leading is unheard of with this coating applied correctly. These bullets simply do not wear barrels like copper coated or jacketed rounds. Joe also makes an amazing sizing lube. You fully coat bullets and then with a simple spray of this lube (you use very very little and it's also inexpensive) and it dries in a few minutes. It reduces the load on sizing dies by 60-80% and gives the bullets an even more slippery feel than the coating already does to reduce friction down the barrel while smoke levels are very low.

Every production cast bullet maker in Australia uses this coating. Some claim their own proprietary coating but those who do are feeding consumers BS, it's Joe's stuff. I really don't understand why bullet makers would not want to promote the fact they are using the best coating in the industry.

Sam
vmaxaust
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by ExArmy » 07 Sep 2018, 7:02 pm

Vmaxaust - Thanks so much for the Hi-Tek bullet coating info. I've got 2 new containers of “Lee Liquid Alox” cast bullet lube and one new container of the Cast Bullet Engineering “45-45-10 Liquid Lube”, which I will use for my .303 cast bullets until the lubricants run out. I'm also in the process of buying a CZ 9mm for which I will also be casting my own bullets, so I would eventually like to use the Hi-Tek coatings for both the .303 and 9mm.
Once I get to the stage of casting the 9mm, I'll contact Joe Ban and see what minimum quantities he's willing to sell. There are quite a few members of our local rifle club / range who also cast their own bullets and they're also interested in getting some of the Hi-Tek bullet coating, so we may even get together and thus get a large enough order for Joe to be bothered with us.
ExArmy
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 7
Queensland

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by bladeracer » 07 Sep 2018, 8:51 pm

ExArmy wrote:Vmaxaust - Thanks so much for the Hi-Tek bullet coating info. I've got 2 new containers of “Lee Liquid Alox” cast bullet lube and one new container of the Cast Bullet Engineering “45-45-10 Liquid Lube”, which I will use for my .303 cast bullets until the lubricants run out. I'm also in the process of buying a CZ 9mm for which I will also be casting my own bullets, so I would eventually like to use the Hi-Tek coatings for both the .303 and 9mm.
Once I get to the stage of casting the 9mm, I'll contact Joe Ban and see what minimum quantities he's willing to sell. There are quite a few members of our local rifle club / range who also cast their own bullets and they're also interested in getting some of the Hi-Tek bullet coating, so we may even get together and thus get a large enough order for Joe to be bothered with us.


Going to take thousands of bullets to use up all your lube then.
I've almost emptied one bottle of Alox over several thousand bullets.
PC and Alox are two different things. I use both.
Alox needs some hours to dry before you can load them.
PC is handy when you want to cast and shoot immediately. Bring the oven up to temp while you're casting. As soon as the bullets are cool enough to handle, toss them in the paint and shake them about, then drop them on a silicone tray and put them in the oven for twenty minutes. Let them cool enough to handle and load them up.
PC is also useful to bring a bullet up in size, just coat it several times if it's way under-size.
Tumble-lubing is somewhat wasteful as only the bearing surface needs lube. I'm planning on pan-lubing a batch next time and see how well that works. If I can keep my inherent clumsiness at bay it should only fill the lube grooves.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12655
Victoria

Re: Loading cast bullets in .303

Post by vmaxaust » 08 Sep 2018, 7:32 am

I'll contact Joe Ban and see what minimum quantities he's willing to sell. There are quite a few members of our local rifle club / range who also cast their own bullets and they're also interested in getting some of the Hi-Tek bullet coating, so we may even get together and thus get a large enough order for Joe to be bothered with us.[/quote]

Good idea. Learning and using the Hi Tech process, you will never go back to wax type lubes or PC.

Sam
vmaxaust
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Reloading ammunition