Problem seating projectiles

[JimTom]

G’day Gents.

I have an issue I am hoping the brains trust can solve.
I have been loading some Hornady 143gn ELD X for 6.5 Manbun and have noticed a slight deformation of the projectile upon seating, as per the attachment.
When I seat the projectile there is a little more resistance than what I would class as normal and the projectiles almost look like they’ve been machined when they get seated.
Projectiles end up with a slight ring around them that is visible and can be felt.
I have pulled seating plug out of die and discovered a ring of copper commensurate with what is happening to projectiles.
I have tried giving seating plug a clean with brush to remove the “fouling”.
Do you think I have a dodgey seating plug in the die?

[JimTom]

Just to add, the brass is brand new Lapua brass that I have just chamfered and deburred.
I didn’t run them through the neck sizer, could
that be a factor?
I have always loaded new brass without neck sizing first.

[SCJ429]

It is quite normal JT. To stop it happening you can get one of your projectiles and lock it into your cordless drill. Cover it with valve grinding paste and gently run it up the seater plug. This will smooth out where the seater hits the bullet ogive. You then will not see any marks on the seated projectiles.

[JimTom]

Thanks mate. I didn’t think about putting a projectile in the drill and polishing it out. That sounds like a practical solution to the issue.
Have never experienced this before in any of my other caliber so it caught me a little off guard.

[straightshooter]

DANGER WILL ROBINSON
That ring is due to a compressed powder load!
The bullet seats and compresses the powder until it reaches a point where the powder refuses to compress any further.
At that point something has to give and in this case the weakest link is the projectile ogive in contact with the seating stem.
Bubba ing your seating stem won't help at all.

[JimTom]

G’day mate.

I have loaded five different loads working up from the starting load to just under max.
Even the start load projectiles have the same ring. I can hear the powder in the case so at this stage I don’t think it is a problem of compression. I figured if it was then the plastic tip on the projectiles would be deformed instead of further up the projectile.
Definitely something to consider though. Thanks for your input mate, sincerely appreciate it.

[JimTom]

I have just necksized and reseated a projectile in an empty case and the deformation of the projectile is still there, albeit no where near as noticeable as it was before.
Will see how it goes on the next reload.

[Sergeant Hartman]

My lee die do it a bit.. but not that much. What setting die are you using

[Oldbloke]

It's just a combination of a softish bullet and the shape of the mandrel (die) not matching the bullet shape. Just need a mandrel that is a better match.

[JimTom]

Mate I am using Redding dies

[Homer]

G'Day Fella's,

Jim Tom, I can think of only one possible cause, undersize inside case neck diameter?
Measure the inside diameter of your case necks. They should be no smaller than say 0.260", and better still, around 0.262" diameter.
You may need to lubricate, and then neck size all of your cases first, before bullet seating.

Hope that helps ....................... Footy's on the TV....................

D'oh!
Homer

[Gaznazdiak]

I have also noticed it with my Lee seater.
Virtually every round has it to some degree, some hardly visible, some as obvious as pictured.
It depends on the projectile.

[JimTom]

Thanks Fellas. Have taken it all on board. Reckon it’s a combination of the die not being quite correct and possibly some neck size issues. Will keep you informed once I solve the issue.

[sungazer]

The standard Redding Die does not have a Seating stem to suit the VLD bullet shape. You can purchase another seating VLD seating stem that will more accurately fit the nose shape of those pointy projectiles. Lee are even worse and often hit on the very tip of the bullet where there is a lot of variance as well as not supporting the bullet so it can become of centre not concentric.

[marksman]

if your seating stem was not suited to the vld style projectiles it would be seating off the projectile point not the ogive, polish your seating stem
the reason this is happening is as Homer said the inside diameter of the neck is to small, to much neck tension
you can remedy this by, chamfer your inside case necks better or vld chamfer for an easier entry (maybe), dry lube the necks before seating (maybe),
neck turning your cases or use a bushing die with a looser diameter neck, neck tension should not be more than 3 thou

to check your neck tension measure your case neck wall, x 2 and add the projectile diameter
then measure a loaded round and take that off the case neck walls x2 and projectile diameter
that will be your neck tension

your ammo should not have ring marks on the projectile like that, I will guarantee when you seat the projectiles into the case and have those marks you are also bending the neck of the case that will cause big runout and crooked ammo that wont shoot for ******

[JimTom]

Went to the range today and tried out the different loads I had loaded.
Seems the seating induced defect on the projectiles didn’t bugger things up to much although I admit it’s far from ideal and can only imagine accuracy improving once I have solved the issue.
Most loads shot 5 rds under an inch, would be much tighter but as usual operator error let me down.

[Flyer]

OK, I went through this a while back and the first thing you need to do is ensure you've adjusted your seating die correctly. If you don't want to crimp (you shouldn't need to), then take the seating stem out and screw the seating die down until it touches the top of the case and back it off 1/4 turn. If you have a dummy round, put it in the shell holder, pull the handle all the way down, then screw the seating stem all the way down until it touches the seated projectile. Then back it off 1/4 turn or so and seat a new bullet. Measure the bullet, and then screw the seating die down until you have your desired overall length.

I learned the hard way that if you don't have the seating die all the way down (just off the crimp), and if you don't make an effort to place the projectiles fairly straight when you seat them, you can crush the hollow tip of the projectile like in your case by trying to seat when the projectile is not concentric.

Once you've confirmed you've set up your seating die OK, ensure you've resized your new brass - the necks often get deformed when they rattle around in the box.

Give your brass a decent chamfer and try to sit the projectile on straight before seating it.

Watch for compressed loads.

If you note resistance to seating from the beginning - not towards the end of the stroke (which indicates a compressed load) - then one or all of the above are the culprit. If the load is compressed, it will only be hard to seat towards the end, and you will usually hear a "crunch" in the process.

Finally, you can try to lap the seating stem with a projectile - as described above - but in my experience, if the projectile is seated properly, and the seating stem is not lapped, the worst you will see is a small shiny ring around the projectile that's usually not a problem. Where lapping can help is it increases the surface area of the seating stem that contacts the projectile and spreads the seating load, making it less likely to deform the projectile if you are using a lot of neck tension. If you do it properly, it will also help centre the projectile in the case. But sometimes the stem itself is not centred in the die and can be part of the problem, so it's a good idea to also check the stem is not bent.

[JimTom]

Thanks mate will give that a try.

[Gaznazdiak]

The top pic is of the mark my Lee die makes on the Nosler RDF 70gn and Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tip.

I read somewhere on here someone mention the case taking a scrape out of the projectile as it is seated but can't remember where. I noticed this today, shown in pic 2, it has been loaded into freshly trimmed and chamfered case. Can anyone point to what might be the cause of this happening occasionally?

[SCJ429]

The ring is caused by the seating stem, you will need to polish it. The case scraping copper off the pill can be cured by chamfering, reducing neck tension and some lube in the case mouth. Have a look at Marksman's advice earlier in this thread.

Accurate shooter had an article about polishing seating stems and tipped match kings deforming the tips when the seating stem cannot accommodate them. It was written by Sierra bullets, good advice from a world class bullet maker.

[Gaznazdiak]

As the ring is only cosmetic I'm not bothered about it, it's nowhere near enough to disturb flight.
The thing I'm having trouble understanding is that, as I mentioned above, the case had been freshly trimmed and chamfered.

I use the Lee chamfer tool with the zip trimmer and looking at the result with a jeweler's loupe it seems uniform and clean on each case but every now and then I get the result above.

I've rolled the loaded rounds in the zip trimmer and to my eye they seem to be aligned with the overall case axis, with no perceptible wobble.

The batch involved were weight batched as well as the pills but when I tested them in 3 round groups, they were about 2.5 inches at 200m. Every group had 2 within 1 inch and one flyer out at 2.

It's got me scratching my head, I can usually get boringly predictable 1 inch groups with the Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tips but the RDF 70gn are giving me a headache.

What I can't understand is that I've used them before with excellent results, so I'm obviously the variable causing the issue.

[Flyer]

The top pic is of the mark my Lee die makes on the Nosler RDF 70gn and Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tip.

I read somewhere on here someone mention the case taking a scrape out of the projectile as it is seated but can't remember where. I noticed this today, shown in pic 2, it has been loaded into freshly trimmed and chamfered case. Can anyone point to what might be the cause of this happening occasionally?

It might be my eyes or the photo, but to me that neck doesn't look like it's been trimmed evenly. In fact, it looks like there's a rough spot right where the mark on the projectile is. I get dents in the top of my 223 brass sometimes and need to trim a bit extra to get them out. You can feel it when you chamfer the neck as the chamfer tool doesn't spin smoothly as it catches on the edge. Sometimes the dents are too small to see with your eye, but you can feel them.

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks Flier, I'll investigate that possibility.

[Gaznazdiak]

I'm a bit slow, just reread your comment, Flier. That under the arrow in the second pic is a small shaving of copper that the harder brass of the case has scraped up, sort of like a small inward dent in the neck would cause, so maybe some of the cases have some damage.

I have a tight-arsed habit of putting my wieght batched brass in clip seal bags instead of plastic storage boxes. They live in those bags for their lifetime and come into the field with me and I put the empties back in with the unfired to keep the batch together, this might be a possible cause of small dents.

[marksman]

IMHO I recon the projectile should be able to be seated without any strain, when I pull a projectile it looks like it has never been seated
if your projectile is being shaved it cannot be 100% true, it will be out of balance, my cases don't even leave a scratch mark
it comes down to what is acceptable to you, there is no benchmark
if your getting resistance when seating you have more probability that you will have runout because your necks are getting bent
if you want to shoot straight you have to have straight consistently made ammo
whether you will notice any difference in group size is based on what your expectations are

[Flyer]

I'm a bit slow, just reread your comment, Flier. That under the arrow in the second pic is a small shaving of copper that the harder brass of the case has scraped up, sort of like a small inward dent in the neck would cause, so maybe some of the cases have some damage.

I have a tight-arsed habit of putting my wieght batched brass in clip seal bags instead of plastic storage boxes. They live in those bags for their lifetime and come into the field with me and I put the empties back in with the unfired to keep the batch together, this might be a possible cause of small dents.

No, I'm talking about under the shaved copper, there appears to be a rough edge around the brass. In fact, if you look at the top edge of the brass, to my eyes it doesn't look straight, it looks like it is slightly jagged. It might be the photo - possibly uneven light - but it doesn't look like it is flush trimmed. I admit I'm also a bit OCD about reloading and have an electric trimmer (Trim It II) and after trimming each piece of brass I'll turn it by hand just to ensure it is trimmed evenly.

[Gaznazdiak]

Hey Flier,
On further investigation(seems OCD is contagious) I worked out that the batch in question has only been fired 3 times and I trim after 4 firings, so it hadn't been trimmed or chamfered yet after all and you were right on that being the cause of the scrape. Photographing with my camera instead of my phone gives a better look.

[Flyer]

Problem solved

[Gaznazdiak]

[SCJ429]

If you outside chamfer second you can push the case neck inwards which might shave copper off the projectile. This often happens with electric powered tools. Inside chamfer second and if you are keen you can smooth things out with some fine steel wool.