Problem seating projectiles

[Gaznazdiak]

The top pic is of the mark my Lee die makes on the Nosler RDF 70gn and Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tip.

I read somewhere on here someone mention the case taking a scrape out of the projectile as it is seated but can't remember where. I noticed this today, shown in pic 2, it has been loaded into freshly trimmed and chamfered case. Can anyone point to what might be the cause of this happening occasionally?

[SCJ429]

The ring is caused by the seating stem, you will need to polish it. The case scraping copper off the pill can be cured by chamfering, reducing neck tension and some lube in the case mouth. Have a look at Marksman's advice earlier in this thread.

Accurate shooter had an article about polishing seating stems and tipped match kings deforming the tips when the seating stem cannot accommodate them. It was written by Sierra bullets, good advice from a world class bullet maker.

[Gaznazdiak]

As the ring is only cosmetic I'm not bothered about it, it's nowhere near enough to disturb flight.
The thing I'm having trouble understanding is that, as I mentioned above, the case had been freshly trimmed and chamfered.

I use the Lee chamfer tool with the zip trimmer and looking at the result with a jeweler's loupe it seems uniform and clean on each case but every now and then I get the result above.

I've rolled the loaded rounds in the zip trimmer and to my eye they seem to be aligned with the overall case axis, with no perceptible wobble.

The batch involved were weight batched as well as the pills but when I tested them in 3 round groups, they were about 2.5 inches at 200m. Every group had 2 within 1 inch and one flyer out at 2.

It's got me scratching my head, I can usually get boringly predictable 1 inch groups with the Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tips but the RDF 70gn are giving me a headache.

What I can't understand is that I've used them before with excellent results, so I'm obviously the variable causing the issue.

[Flyer]

The top pic is of the mark my Lee die makes on the Nosler RDF 70gn and Nosler 50gn Ballistic Tip.

I read somewhere on here someone mention the case taking a scrape out of the projectile as it is seated but can't remember where. I noticed this today, shown in pic 2, it has been loaded into freshly trimmed and chamfered case. Can anyone point to what might be the cause of this happening occasionally?

It might be my eyes or the photo, but to me that neck doesn't look like it's been trimmed evenly. In fact, it looks like there's a rough spot right where the mark on the projectile is. I get dents in the top of my 223 brass sometimes and need to trim a bit extra to get them out. You can feel it when you chamfer the neck as the chamfer tool doesn't spin smoothly as it catches on the edge. Sometimes the dents are too small to see with your eye, but you can feel them.

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks Flier, I'll investigate that possibility.

[Gaznazdiak]

I'm a bit slow, just reread your comment, Flier. That under the arrow in the second pic is a small shaving of copper that the harder brass of the case has scraped up, sort of like a small inward dent in the neck would cause, so maybe some of the cases have some damage.

I have a tight-arsed habit of putting my wieght batched brass in clip seal bags instead of plastic storage boxes. They live in those bags for their lifetime and come into the field with me and I put the empties back in with the unfired to keep the batch together, this might be a possible cause of small dents.

[marksman]

IMHO I recon the projectile should be able to be seated without any strain, when I pull a projectile it looks like it has never been seated
if your projectile is being shaved it cannot be 100% true, it will be out of balance, my cases don't even leave a scratch mark
it comes down to what is acceptable to you, there is no benchmark
if your getting resistance when seating you have more probability that you will have runout because your necks are getting bent
if you want to shoot straight you have to have straight consistently made ammo
whether you will notice any difference in group size is based on what your expectations are

[Flyer]

I'm a bit slow, just reread your comment, Flier. That under the arrow in the second pic is a small shaving of copper that the harder brass of the case has scraped up, sort of like a small inward dent in the neck would cause, so maybe some of the cases have some damage.

I have a tight-arsed habit of putting my wieght batched brass in clip seal bags instead of plastic storage boxes. They live in those bags for their lifetime and come into the field with me and I put the empties back in with the unfired to keep the batch together, this might be a possible cause of small dents.

No, I'm talking about under the shaved copper, there appears to be a rough edge around the brass. In fact, if you look at the top edge of the brass, to my eyes it doesn't look straight, it looks like it is slightly jagged. It might be the photo - possibly uneven light - but it doesn't look like it is flush trimmed. I admit I'm also a bit OCD about reloading and have an electric trimmer (Trim It II) and after trimming each piece of brass I'll turn it by hand just to ensure it is trimmed evenly.

[Gaznazdiak]

Hey Flier,
On further investigation(seems OCD is contagious) I worked out that the batch in question has only been fired 3 times and I trim after 4 firings, so it hadn't been trimmed or chamfered yet after all and you were right on that being the cause of the scrape. Photographing with my camera instead of my phone gives a better look.

[Flyer]

Problem solved

[Gaznazdiak]

[SCJ429]

If you outside chamfer second you can push the case neck inwards which might shave copper off the projectile. This often happens with electric powered tools. Inside chamfer second and if you are keen you can smooth things out with some fine steel wool.

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks SCJ, I'll keep that in mind as well.

[Oldbloke]

Due to the brass flowing over the course of a few firings I guess the internal chamfer has disappeared.

[marksman]

If you outside chamfer second you can push the case neck inwards which might shave copper off the projectile. This often happens with electric powered tools. Inside chamfer second and if you are keen you can smooth things out with some fine steel wool.

+1

[Oldbloke]

If you outside chamfer second you can push the case neck inwards which might shave copper off the projectile. This often happens with electric powered tools. Inside chamfer second and if you are keen you can smooth things out with some fine steel wool.

TBO I have doubts about that theory.
Wouldn't hurt to very lightly lube the case neck or the bullets before seating them.

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks guys, I imagine all these tips and tricks take years of OCD to discover.

[JimTom]

The 143gn ELD X with the seating deformation

AE5DEDE1-46DC-4FA5-9E34-A4E9642473C2.jpeg (645.99 KiB) Viewed 4671 times

This is how the 143gn ELD X went at the range. Even though they have the deformation, this is a 5 shot group at 100m.
Wondering if it would get any better if the projectiles were unmarked.

As a reminder this is what they looked like before and after seating.

[JimTom]

Will endeavour to fix the issue however this group was shot off a bipod and a small bag under the butt. Reasonably good accuracy for what is essentially a hunting load.

[marksman]

if I were you I would be definitely fixing what is making the ring marks on your projectiles, they are not just cosmetic
and if you think the ring marks are not hurting your rifles precision how would you know
is this what your rifle and load shoots always or is it the better group of the day

or you can be happy with what you have now, its about your standard and what you think is good enough

[JimTom]

G’day mate

The rifle shoots half inch at 100m consistently with the projectiles I have shown.
I have tried some 140gn Speer and the seat nicely with no marks and only managed an inch.
Although the ELD X have deformation they seem to be the most accurate even with the deformation.

[JimTom]

You are right though mate. I definitely don’t think it is normal and shouldn’t accept mediocrity.

[axio]

I have had the same problem (with 223) and believe its related to neck tension, on the basis that more force is required to seat the projectile and causes dents

Bushing sizing dies with the correct bushing could solve this

Anyone with more knowledge on this topic able to comment?

[Gaznazdiak]

I have had the same problem (with 223) and believe its related to neck tension, on the basis that more force is required to seat the projectile and causes dents

Bushing sizing dies with the correct bushing could solve this

Anyone with more knowledge on this topic able to comment?

I don't have "more" knowledge, hell what I don't know could fill a library, but I discovered that I was being a little forceful on the press. Being a little more gentle when seating eliminated the dents.

[Oldbloke]

Fine for hunting.
The bullet shapes is changed, but it's uniform. That probably accounts for good groups.

Don't forget they get rammed through a barrel at 3000fps and are deformed in the process.

[marksman]

You are right though mate. I definitely don’t think it is normal and shouldn’t accept mediocrity.

1/2" is good but if you play with the neck tension and get rid of the ring marks it may tighten up the groups
its an OCD thing of mine to have everything as good as you can get it

[Flyer]

AE5DEDE1-46DC-4FA5-9E34-A4E9642473C2.jpeg

This is how the 143gn ELD X went at the range. Even though they have the deformation, this is a 5 shot group at 100m.
Wondering if it would get any better if the projectiles were unmarked.

As a reminder this is what they looked like before and after seating.

Hey mate, did you do all the things I suggested back on Page 1? I had the same issue with the 143 ELD-Xs, but the issue was setting up the seating die correctly and using an steady, even force when seating - not trying to seat too quickly, as Gaz mentioned.

As to whether it will hurt accuracy, from what I've seen and read, it won't harm inherent accuracy much, but it will hurt BC and change POI over longer distances - which will hurt accuracy if you mix up indented and non-indented rounds (if that makes sense).

I've shot some of my best groups with indented rounds, but only at shorter distances.

[marksman]

the problem with indents on lead core projectiles is that the copper jacket will spring back but the lead core will not
so if you can guarantee the indent is exactly the same on every bullet you will have consistency for shorter ranges but if you cant you may get unexplained flyers
if this is acceptable to you then not a worry but it would be better to not have any deformation for best precision
thing is we can all make it out to be as allowable as we like but it should not be there

[Flyer]

I think the ELD-X are indenting where they are because they are hollow at the tip - there's just copper jacket with the plastic insert, so no lead core to prevent the jacket deforming if the dies are not set up correctly, or if there is too much neck tension (or no concentric), or if you're a bit too exuberant with the seating lever. As mentioned, I went through this myself with the same projectile, and I've got good Forster dies.

[JimTom]

AE5DEDE1-46DC-4FA5-9E34-A4E9642473C2.jpeg

This is how the 143gn ELD X went at the range. Even though they have the deformation, this is a 5 shot group at 100m.
Wondering if it would get any better if the projectiles were unmarked.

As a reminder this is what they looked like before and after seating.

Hey mate, did you do all the things I suggested back on Page 1? I had the same issue with the 143 ELD-Xs, but the issue was setting up the seating die correctly and using an steady, even force when seating - not trying to seat too quickly, as Gaz mentioned.

As to whether it will hurt accuracy, from what I've seen and read, it won't harm inherent accuracy much, but it will hurt BC and change POI over longer distances - which will hurt accuracy if you mix up indented and non-indented rounds (if that makes sense).

I've shot some of my best groups with indented rounds, but only at shorter distances.

G’day mate,

Yes I have and the problem is now nowhere near as pronounced.
Just need to give the seating plug a bit of a polish which will hopefully eliminate the issue all together.