fireforming buckled cases

[5Tom]

If I can chamber a buckled (or mildly buckled) round in the rifle without extra force, will it be safe to fire?

The cases I have are for my Mosin nagant (7.62x54r) and during the bullet seating stage, a few shoulders got bumped and pressed in a little beyond where they're supposed to be.

In a way, I'm thinking my seating die may not be set correctly if there is a little bit of overthrow? I have the die set for a COAL of 3.000 Inch and I can feel the resistance when the projectile touches the grommet at its set depth, then it can travel a little further causing buckled cases.

[Bills Shed]

What type of seating die are you using? Are you trying to crimp the projectiles? Sounds like the die is set incorrectly. Can you give us some more info on you seating technique.

[Apollo]

If the case is slightly buckled, dented or whatever and will chamber without applying pressure then it should be safe to fire and should blow out to normal size once fired (fire formed). Test chamber the cartridges in a safe environment. Check there are no cracks in the case around the damage.

Sounds like your seating die is set too low as it should not contact the case shoulder.

Most seating dies are set with the press ram raised and a case in the shell holder, die then screwed down until it contacts the case shoulder then backed off about 1/8th of a turn. If extra resistance is felt other than normal when seating a bullet then stop and check the case dimensions. Perhaps some cases are longer than others to the shoulder datum point and need full length sizing.

[5Tom]

Using the Lee 3 Die set for the 7.62x54r.
When I seated my Hornady 150gr .312 spitzer projectiles, I don't believe I had this problem and now I'm seating 180gr Sierra .311 Pro hunters.
I didn't remove the seating die from the press, instead I loosened the adjustment knob, put a dummy case with projectile in the die and screwed down until the desired COAL.

I'll have to check to see if the die is touching the case shoulder. Sounds like a probable cause.
cheers

[5Tom]

Just checked the seating die and found it was seated a little too low.

Most seating dies are set with the press ram raised and a case in the shell holder, die then screwed down until it contacts the case shoulder then backed off about 1/8th of a turn.

I followed this and the Die seems setup properly now. I don't have any spare cases to adjust the seating depth so I'll do that after a range session next weekend.

Thanks

[Bills Shed]

, a few shoulders got bumped and pressed in a little beyond where they're supposed to be.

Good to hear that you found the problem. If only a few were getting buckled you could also have some cases that are longer than the rest. If they chamber OK with no extra force required they should be OK to fire but check the case lengths after firing. Check all the fired brass and Trim them up if required.

[5Tom]

I use the lee trim tool in the cordless drill so the cases were all at the right length. I then use the deburring tool to chamfer the edge for bullet seating.

Would annealing buckled cases help improve the strength as it would to the neck? Never tried annealing before but I would imagine it could only help if done right?

[Bills Shed]

In a nutshell, no.
Annealing does not strengthen a case. It softens the brass and makes it more malleable . It can be done badly.
When annealing to soften a neck, if the shoulder is annealed as well and becomes too soft it will not support the neck when a bullet is seated and the shoulder will collapse.

[Apollo]

The idea of some cases being over length overall and requiring neck trimming may not be the answer. More likely may be that some cases are longer at the shoulder datum point.

A handy item to have for any reloader, especially precision accuracy reloading is a Hornady LNL Headspace Gauge Set to measure all cases for correct headspace length and very handy to set your Full Length Resizing Die up for minimum shoulder bump and reduce over working cases when full length sizing. You can also measure the headspace of loaded ammunition, be it hand loads or factory ammo.

Some factory chambered rifles, especially older ones that use rimless cartridge calibres may have a chamber headspace on the generous side but still within maximum allowable safe settings and it is handy to be able to measure this and set you resizing dies up for minimum clearances and extend your case life in the process.

A much better way of extending case life is to use a Body Die that only bumps the shoulder length and does not work any other part of the cartridge case. I have FLS Dies for all my calibres and some others for friends but these FLS Dies are very rarely used. The Body Dies are used about every second reloading to bump the shoulder of all cases back about 0.002" from maximum allowable length to ensure easy chambering of all cases. For my custom chambered rifles I bump the shoulders only 0.001" and they are checked after every firing to ensure the best continuity I can of each loaded round for precision target shooting.

Glad to hear the problem has been solved and enjoy your next trip to the range.

[Varmtr]

Mildly buckled will be ok this will be just like fire forming the case again.

As mentioned annealing softens the brass. Brass work hardens when constant shooting and resizing the brass gets harder and harder and if it harden enough this where split case necks and case head seperation can happen. ONLY anneal the case neck and shoulder area if you go any further down the case you may soften the brass to much and when firing you may have a case rupture. Not nice.

To reduce the chance of case head seperation by constant FLS only neck size and when getting harder to chamber then do a FLS. Or even better as Apollo has said get a body die just to bump the shoulder back a thou or so to make chambering easier again. But I'm not sure if you can get a body die for the 7.62x54R. You can always get one made by CH4D, http://www.ch4d.com might cost a bit though.

Now when seating the bullets and you are causing the case to buckle in the shoulder area I would say you haven't deburred the case neck enough. No bullet seating should be that hard that cause's the issue you are having.

Bill mentioned only the neck but if annealing at the right temperature at the neck the shoulder will get annealed slightly due to heat conducting down the case. But if the neck is deburred properly the shoulder shouldn't have any issue supporting the bullet seating process. As mentioned annealing must be done at the right temperature.

I have annealed plety of 303's to be necked down to 6mm and have no issue's for my next project rifle.

[Varmtr]

COAL can be a bit miss leading due to each bullet tip can be different. The best way is using a bullet compartor which with the use of verniers and the compartor measures from the base of the cartridge to what is call the ogive of the bullet.

[Apollo]

As mentioned by "Varmtr" a Body Die may not be available for the 7.62x54R and I cannot see one listed after a quick look at the Redding Catalogue.

Over working cases is to be avoided if possible and hence why the LNL Headspace Gauge comes in handy for setting up any FLS Die correctly and for minimum working of the case sizing.

[yoshie]

If they don't chamber, pull the bullet out, empty the powder, remove the primer punch and run them through your full length sizer, that will remove the buckle. I'd mark them on the bottom and keep an eye on them for a few firings to make sure they didn't crease and weaken.

[Hercl]

Some information here - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=907

As mentioned, if you're deforming the shoulder at all you've got a seating die problem. You're probably across this, but just incase a quite recap from the other topic I linked above.

Process for setting your seating die should be:

1) No die inserted in press.
2) Put empty brass in press. (trimmed to length)
3) Raise press fully.
4) Screw seating die in until it touches empty brass.
5) Screw seating die out 3/4 of a turn.
6) Secure seating die at that height.

Now you've put the body of the tie on the brass and turned it out that 3/4 you know the die isn't crushing the brass.

If you're still having problems with brass getting crushed would be due to the bullet not sliding in cleanly either to deformed necks which haven't been sized properly or which haven't been chamfered.

[Blackened]

A picture would be helpful to see exactly how buckled we're talking about.

As to firing them... As a general rule I'd be hesitant to do it. They might fire fine but you'll being creating some different pressures with the crushed cases then 'regular' ones. Better safe than sorry and all that...

How many cases are we talking about here?

If it's only a couple you I'd just dispose of them. Otherwise you could buy a bullet puller for $30 or whatever they are.

Remove, fix and reseat them.

[5Tom]

Here's a pic.
The one on the left has the shoulder evenly pushed in a bit and seems to chamber in the 91/30. I didn't lock down the bolt in case something jammed and I spill powder everywhere.
The one on the right is a little different at looks like it either wasn't central when it seated or it got caught on one side. It's a little crooked and felt a bit more resistance attempting to chamber this one. I needed to get my cleaning rod to tap the round out although I pushed this one in by hand and not the bolt.

Normally if this were my .243 I would just discard the cases as I have plenty of cases to spare. The 54r on the other hand, I try to keep every case I can.

[Warrigul]

Using the Lee 3 Die set for the 7.62x54r.
When I seated my Hornady 150gr .312 spitzer projectiles, I don't believe I had this problem and now I'm seating 180gr Sierra .311 Pro hunters.
I didn't remove the seating die from the press, instead I loosened the adjustment knob, put a dummy case with projectile in the die and screwed down until the desired COAL.

I'll have to check to see if the die is touching the case shoulder. Sounds like a probable cause.
cheers

Yep, you are right, going by the pictures you are crimping the case to the projectile way too early so the whole case is being pushed down not just the projectile, otherwise you would have a great big ring mark around the ogive on the projectile.

Unless you specifically want a crimp then screw the seating die almost all the way out and use the centre screw to adjust projectile depth NOT the whole die.

[Monty]

You definitely have your seating die set much too low.

Refer to Hercl's 6 steps above.

Step 5 is where you're coming undone. You need to make sure you back the die out after screwing it in onto the top of a case.

[Bills Shed]

Yep the pic tells the story. Seating die too low.

[5Tom]

Cheers guys, I made the right adjustments to the seating die so it should be resolved. I'll have to do the same thing with my .243 die as well just to be sure.

About the 2nd case, should a FLS die fix that if I cant fireform it? If neither, it's in the bin.

[Monty]

Yeah, I think you should be ok to salvage the second case.

[5Tom]

Update,

Those cases were fireformed back to their original shape without any problems. They did require some force to lock the bolt down, but after firing, the bolt opened up just fine and the cases don't look damaged or split. I'll keep an eye on them during future reloading.

Thanks All!

[Lorgar]

Good stuff

[whert]

Those cases were fireformed back to their original shape without any problems. They did require some force to lock the bolt down, but after firing, the bolt opened up just fine and the cases don't look damaged or split. I'll keep an eye on them during future reloading.

How did the case on the left go out of curiosity? When you fireformed it back, it is 100% as before? Or 95% this time and maybe one more firing to make it 100%?

Just curious, that seemed like a lot of squash to work out in one shot?

[5Tom]

It completely fireformed to 100% original shape. We inspected the case after it was extracted out of the chamber and we saw very minor scratches of all things.

Just goes to show how much pressure builds up only inches from your face

[Hadoku]

Up to 60,000 PSI or thereabouts in heavier loads If I remember right

I don't wanna think about it