Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 11:53 am

:thumbsup: Thanks Stix, yeah sorta, makes it hard when you don't have one in front of you, I'm more of a tactile learner, not from books. I like "hands on" to see what and how things work.

Making headway at least, more research and number crunching ahead... :thumbsup:
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by bladeracer » 18 Nov 2018, 12:05 pm

PoorShot300 wrote:Thanks Blade, always count on you for input... how are those bullpup Rugers going? Last I read you were onto another project, but i haven't caught up with the result?

The more I look, the more confused I get even with just ONE makers gear,...and the more I see $$$ flowing out the wallet rofl.

Cheers


I'm still shooting the "Mark 1" version :-)

There are more individual techniques, and products, to reloading than could ever be listed in one place, it's just a matter of discovering which ones suit you best.
I also have the Lee hand press which is handy for doing things away from the bench. Prepping brass in your lap for example (don't do it naked!), and priming.
I have two Lee O-frame presses, a C-frame, and the hand press, so I just use whichever best suits me at the time.

My inherent clumsiness is the main reason I don't like the press-mounted priming system, it's just another thing to be bumping into. It's also why the better access of the C-frame can be a breath of fresh air when I don't need the strength of the O-frame.

I am also inherently sceptical about letting mechanical devices make quality control decisions for me, which is why I dislike progressive, or even turret presses - I need to be in there at every step myself. In the last couple of years I have started using the powder thrower for loading my milsurp ammo and been really impressed with it. But when I'm loading modern ammo I am still throwing it to the pan, then onto the scale to confirm and adjust the charge before dumping it into the brass. The accuracy is sufficient that I'm sure at some point I'll be throwing all my charges through it. When I do milsurp loads I prefer to throw the whole tray so I can then visually inspect that all charges are at the same level in the brass before moving to seating bullets in them. I shot a 35mm 5rd group at 50m from my No.4Mk1* Rifle this week with open sights so I'm happy with the ammo.

As Gaz mentioned above, the Lee beam scale is a pain to use in the hands of a clumsy like me, but it is accurate, so is handy to check sometimes that the digital is being truthful.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 4:21 pm

:evil: Dang computer.. had a post then thing froze up and lost it. :evil:

I don't yet have the rifle these enquiries are for (sorting purchase out this week & PTA) so it's not an immediate purchase, though it won't be far behind. I am stuck between two presses, but the link above also now has me thinking of the 60th Anniversary model with an improved powder thrower & updated hand primer...

On the other hand, I'm gonna have to crunch more numbers regarding individual component purchase so as not to be duplicitous (scales, shell holders etc...the little things that add up)...I don't have much room so do need to keep it basic, and my history of re-selling un-used/wanted items has not been favourable.

So for now I will have....Hornady 55+62gn, Rem, Aussie O/B, and Federal A/E in 55gn as a start to see what it likes. I have also bought 100 OSA once fired brass as it appears to be developing a good reputation. Burn in will be with the Rem + Federal, then I'll see whether the TAP, Steel Match and OSA Varmint give good results.

It's understood reloading is a time consuming process and my final 'sweet load' may be miles from any of these, but hey it was cheap and a place to start. Then comes the triple P chemistry lessons... :crazy:

BTW Blade?...as a rollie smoker (hot dropping dangly's), I ain't up for doing much anything nude round my place...lol. :mrgreen:

As usual, the members here are a font of knowledge, and I appreciate everyone's input.

Oh yeah, I had an ad looking for a used rifle, decided to bite the bullet and go NEW!!! (sighhh...AGAIN.)

Shiny, shiny, nah nah, nah, nah...
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by TassieTiger » 18 Nov 2018, 4:41 pm

Another hand primer here...I like doing bulk single stage steps...I’ll do 100 cleans, 100 resize, 100 hand primes...and so on.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 5:17 pm

Thanks Tassie, seems to be a theme developing here, makes one wonder why press priming was developed in the first place lol...

Cheers
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Bills Shed » 18 Nov 2018, 5:53 pm

Priming is one of those jobs you just do not need a press for and is easily done when watching a movie. Just like deburring, primer pocket un forming etc, highly portable task.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Stix » 18 Nov 2018, 6:00 pm

PoorShot300 wrote:Thanks Tassie, seems to be a theme developing here, makes one wonder why press priming was developed in the first place lol...

Cheers


Mate im a carpenter...my skin is that thick & callused i test sharpness of my knives by how easy i can carve hunks of flesh off my hands... ( :shock: ) :lol:
Seriously, sometimes ill just use my hands to sand off cement render in spots... :crazy:

A week ago i prepped & hand primed (& loaded) just over 300 cases in a mad loading rush & i had mutha fukka blisters under my calluses from the hand priming...!!!
The pain was unreal...!!

I should have done half on the press to lessen the pain...it was just sheer pig headed stupidity that forced me to push through the last 50....just cos im a sucker for punishment. :roll:

Sometimes its good to use or at least have a press handy...one day you might injure a hand or the hand prime tool may break the night before a hunt/shoot & without the ability to prime on the press you may not be able to load.. :thumbsup:

You can develop a "feel" for priming on the press, just like you can/will with seating bullets....

Which ever way you end up going, id still suggest having & trying both methods & develop what works for you... :thumbsup:
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Bills Shed » 18 Nov 2018, 6:24 pm

[/quote]
A week ago i prepped & hand primed (& loaded) just over 300 cases in a mad loading rush & i had mutha fukka blisters under my calluses from the hand priming...!!!
The pain was unreal...!![/quote]

Blisters? What hand prime tool were you Using? I often do 500 rifle cases in a sitting with a Sinclair hand primer. It is quite large and fits in the hand easy. Not like those little dinky Lee hand primers. I find them very small and hard to hold. Mind you all my primer pockets are uniformed and primers go in very smoothly. At the end of the day if it works ...use it.

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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Stix » 18 Nov 2018, 6:31 pm

Bills Shed wrote:

A week ago i prepped & hand primed (& loaded) just over 300 cases in a mad loading rush & i had mutha fukka blisters under my calluses from the hand priming...!!!
The pain was unreal...!![/quote]

Blisters? What hand prime tool were you Using? I often do 500 rifle cases in a sitting with a Sinclair hand primer. It is quite large and fits in the hand easy. Not like those little dinky Lee hand primers. I find them very small and hard to hold. Mind you all my primer pockets are uniformed and primers go in very smoothly. At the end of the day if it works ...use it.

Bill[/quote]

I use the lee ergoprime.
Some of the cases were uniformed & some not.
Still even some of the uniformed ones are tight for some reason, despite me ensuring the pockets were as even as i could when they were uniformed.
Im not keen on uniforming them again.

Some cases the primer slips in real easy (none or barely any resistance)...im slightly concerned those are too loose...?...but i shoot em anyway...
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 6:46 pm

Ahhh, well I guess we can put that down to me imagining my own circumstance, as I won't be a club shooter, and likely very few hunts a year... seems the new hand-loader from Lee would alleviate the blister issue also, as it's meant to be "one finger" operation from what i read. Anyone here got one yet?

Point taken though about trying both and making my own mind up. As noted earlier, I have limited space, so I am also wondering if any readers are using the tripod (or similar) mount for the press, as opposed to being on a workbench? If so, how does it work out for you and are there any "gotcha's" as such? It seems you need some kind of decent weight suspended underneath to stablise any movement, so what do you use for that purpose?

So Stix,...with all those blister hurting like a mother fukka, how'd the mad rush load job go on the field the next day, or rather, how'd your hands hold up for the shoot?

Cheers
Last edited by PoorShot300 on 18 Nov 2018, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by TassieTiger » 18 Nov 2018, 6:49 pm

Stix wrote:
PoorShot300 wrote:Thanks Tassie, seems to be a theme developing here, makes one wonder why press priming was developed in the first place lol...

Cheers


Mate im a carpenter...my skin is that thick & callused i test sharpness of my knives by how easy i can carve hunks of flesh off my hands... ( :shock: ) :lol:
Seriously, sometimes ill just use my hands to sand off cement render in spots... :crazy:

A week ago i prepped & hand primed (& loaded) just over 300 cases in a mad loading rush & i had mutha fukka blisters under my calluses from the hand priming...!!!
The pain was unreal...!!

I should have done half on the press to lessen the pain...it was just sheer pig headed stupidity that forced me to push through the last 50....just cos im a sucker for punishment. :roll:

Sometimes its good to use or at least have a press handy...one day you might injure a hand or the hand prime tool may break the night before a hunt/shoot & without the ability to prime on the press you may not be able to load.. :thumbsup:

You can develop a "feel" for priming on the press, just like you can/will with seating bullets....

Which ever way you end up going, id still suggest having & trying both methods & develop what works for you... :thumbsup:


That’s interesting - 300 would give you blisters from press handle anyway lol.

But seriously, some hand press devices are a lot harder than others AND I recently purchased a couple hundred new lapua cases and I needed next to zero pressure to seat the primers - I was so concerned I popped a couple back out but nope, they were good to go - I even let my kid do a couple with the safety gear on!
The press priming tool works fine - but I like to concentrate on the die action at this relatively early stage of my reloading career, and the couple times I did experiment with primer press, a few loaded okay, some slipped out, some got stuck, etc. with more experience I’ve no doubt it would be sorted, but now I consider hand priming my hand muscle work out...next bastard that shakes your hand like Donald trump on acid, ask him if he reloads lol.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 6:54 pm

"next bastard that shakes your hand like Donald trump on acid, ask him if he reloads lol." :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by SCJ429 » 18 Nov 2018, 7:57 pm

I bought a $190 K&M primer seater with a dial indicator, I find I do a pretty good job with my old RCBS bench mounted primer seater. RCBS impressed me when they sent me new primer holders for free. I do most of my priming with the RCBS and only occasionally use the K&M.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 18 Nov 2018, 10:32 pm

Thanks for your input SCJ429, that sounds like great service from RCBS...

COOPER...sorry, somehow I missed the pic you included, must have been around when my comp. was freezing up...
Thanks for painting the picture of how that works, much clearer in my mind now...added to blades info,.
As much as I hate the big smoke, sometimes the larger shops have the advantage of being able to see hands on just what's involved.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by eddahenry » 20 Nov 2018, 10:21 am

yep Hand prime for me I use the Lee ERGO prime and can easily do 500 cases at a time
the Auto hand prime that comes with the kits is a lot less comfortable (a mate has one) as you are kinda stuck using your thumb
But i say get the Press with the hand prime because it comes with a full set of hand prime shell holders , so you can upgrade to a ergo prime later on i think it was the Breech Lock Challenger Kit that comes with the auto hand prime
THe first upgrades you will be chasing is
Digital scale and the Ergo prime :)
this is my Ergo prime
ergo11.jpg
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 20 Nov 2018, 1:20 pm

Thanks eddahenry, I have been leaning in that direction for the shell holders as well, but am curious to read about the new handloader which apparently is capable of being operated with just one finger... there is a 60th Anniversary kit out now, but not much by way of availability in Aus as yet.

I already own a cpl of digital scales i use to weigh jewellery etc so that's not an issue..

Cheers
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by ob1 » 21 Nov 2018, 10:58 am

Do some Youtube research to help you make a decision about what equipment you want.

Here is one Youtube video about the reloading process on a single stage press.

https://youtu.be/v2ldwFVtm08

If you are going to load hundreds of rounds at a time you may want a progressive press. Youtube, again.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 21 Nov 2018, 11:08 am

Thanks ob1, I have limited download due to wireless, but have a cpl of ytube vids already...I like the look of progressive, but don't imagine I'd make full use of it and the additional cost. It looks like it will be single stage for my needs.

Cheers
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by ozidingo » 21 Nov 2018, 7:16 pm

I use Lee stuff & prime on the press without dramas. It takes a while to get the hang of the primer feed, but once you do it works fine. (Classic turret press) IMHO Lee is good gear for the price, but like any hobby you’re always going to upgrade bit by bit. I started with a single stage kit.. I’ve now changed most of it & have a lot of entry level stuff I won’t use again.. (chamfer/deburr tool etc.) I’ll use the single stage for sizing/depriming & then again for case trimming when necessary (way better with a cordless drill than by hand!) You can always spend a fortune for the optimum kit, but mine was relatively cheap and it works for me..
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 22 Nov 2018, 3:57 pm

Thanks ozidingo for your perspective, my issue is I have limited room, and as this is a hobby for me, also a limit to my funds for efficiencies sake. It looks like I will go with the hand primer Challenger breech lock kit atm, unless a cheaper used alternative becomes available in the next few weeks...

Cheers
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Blr243 » 25 Nov 2018, 4:14 pm

I was taught to only use a h and primer and his reasoning was to better feel it happening right rather than the big clunky press action So the hand primer is all I have ever known
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by axio » 25 Nov 2018, 6:04 pm

Most of my Lee accessories ended up in the bin. Total cheap garbage

The breach lock press works well but the handle rusted :/ The dies are good however
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 25 Nov 2018, 6:13 pm

Thanks Blr243, another vote for hand priming. It's looking more like the way I will begin also as the press prime kit doesn't have the shell holders and replaced them with a reloading manual, which I already have in the Hornady manual (#8) and current online ADI reloaders guide.

On primers, I read much of the CCI #400 for .223, so who can tell me the best place for 'components' like primers, projies, powder and cases, or alternate primers? I'm in Victoria if that helps narrow the field?

I have done a bit of a search, but many places don't list prices or postage costs. Who looks after YOU best? Do they combine purchases & offer postage savings etc?

Looking @ OSA brass, 2206H powder, CCI primers and likely Speer projies (55gn) unless otherwise advised. This will just be barrel burn in & press operation familiarisation ammo to begin with, looking at 500 rnds worth of each.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Cooper » 25 Nov 2018, 6:54 pm

PoorShot300 wrote:Thanks Blr243, another vote for hand priming. It's looking more like the way I will begin also as the press prime kit doesn't have the shell holders and replaced them with a reloading manual, which I already have in the Hornady manual (#8) and current online ADI reloaders guide.

On primers, I read much of the CCI #400 for .223, so who can tell me the best place for 'components' like primers, projies, powder and cases, or alternate primers? I'm in Victoria if that helps narrow the field?

I have done a bit of a search, but many places don't list prices or postage costs. Who looks after YOU best? Do they combine purchases & offer postage savings etc?

Looking @ OSA brass, 2206H powder, CCI primers and likely Speer projies (55gn) unless otherwise advised. This will just be barrel burn in & press operation familiarisation ammo to begin with, looking at 500 rnds worth of each.



When you say Victoria. I assume you mean Melbourne? powder is pretty much the same everywhere price wise. I run Sellior & Bellot primers. Mainly because I can get them for 5 cents each. But they preform perfectly fine. OSA brass is good. My first choice for projectiles would be Sierra Super Roos then Hornady Z-max. Not that there is another wrong with Speer.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Rod_outbak » 25 Nov 2018, 6:58 pm

Mate, unless you are able to travel, your Local Gun Shop is going to be your source for powder & primers. Getting anyone to ship powder or primers to you is going to be horrendously expensive, whereas your LGS will already have the freight arrangements in place for dangerous goods.
[Even if you do travel, make sure you understand the law about transporting powder and primers yourself, and what storage you might need to do such.]

The others (brass, projectiles etc) can likely be sourced from whomever is offering a good deal online, or you might find your LGS can do a half-decent price as well.
I buy most of my gear through my LGS (shop local if possible), but some items I source elsewhere if they dont stock it.

I use (mostly) OSA brass, Benchmark 2, and CCI 400 primers, with a 55gn Vmax/Zmax pill. Works a treat for me.

From 2 of my distance-shooting mates:
"In every .223 I have owned I have always had great success with 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over 24.5 grains of Benchmark 2.
Velocity is generally around 3100fps and accuracy sub MOA. Out of a little 18" carbine they still clocked 3000 fps.
I found AR2208 to be a little too slow with 55 grainers and AR2206H is pretty close to AR2208 so it may also be a bit too slow.
The other benefit of BM2 is it meters really well. So well that you can throw it straight out of a powder measure."
And:
"22.5gr AR2219 behind a 55gr Nosler BT has been accurate out of all mine, not sure on velocity, but VERY destructive...AR2219 is in between BM1 & BM2 for burn rate and meters well too."

For our .223 loads here(hunting - no benchrest work), I have stuck with the BM2 load of 24.5, and have never found any need to alter it.

I really like the OSA brass; the 1000 new cases I bought a few years back have proven to be very consistent.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 25 Nov 2018, 8:47 pm

Cooper... nah not Melbourne mate, out bush, local town about 10-13,000 pop., one small LGS who has 'fixed' ideas (he'd be in mid 60's) and inflexible in many ways (see below). Thanks for the projie recommendations, and yeah, they too were on the list.

Confused the Speer purchase on that being what OSA/Aussie Outback rounds are loaded with, which get great reports from a range of rifle makes. I see now on second glance they are Sierra, but no 55gn listing for Sierra on the ADI data sheet. :crazy: (my bad). Will look again at pricing/availability of both once more. :thumbsup:



Rod_outbak...Seems I'm stuck with the LGS for primer/powder combo's then, unless I want a 2hr return trip to a larger centre...
I like to keep it local as much as I can, but my LGS sure makes it difficult when he doesn't want to sell me what I want. Case in point, I am buying a CZ and he keeps pushing the Howa down my throat, likely as he has it on the shelf...and has to order the CZ in.

I have read reports where the BR#4 is also a contender for primers (among benchrest guys) and chose #400 for my list based on popularity, though as stated, my selections are not set in stone.

Reading your mates experiences I was somewhat confused by "..AR2206H is pretty close to AR2208 so it may also be a bit too slow." in comparison to 3000fps when the ADI chart lists 2206H/2208 as being from 1:12 a 24" bbl, mine will be a 1:9 24"....

55 GR. Speer Soft Point, Spitzer, Spire Point AR2206H .224" 2.200" 25.0 grain 3176 fps 39700 cup 26.0 grain 3315 fps 49000 cup

55 GR. Speer Soft Point, Spitzer, Spire Point AR2208 .224" 2.200" 25.5 grain 3174 fps 41300 cup 27.5 grain (C) 3384 fps 49700 cup

but then again, no listing for the Nosler projie & running a lighter load in a shorter bbl of manufacturer unknown...perhaps therein lays the difference? Also, I don't have access to a chrony, so it will just be a matter of which recipe groups best, regardless of speed.

It's a given every rifle will be different in what recipe/components each likes 'best', but due to $$ limitations, I figured i had a reasonable medium all round entry level combo to start out with to start my testing, I stand to be corrected.

Over time as funds allow, I can obviously change things up one at a time to see any variances, beginning with experimenting with the range of projies, then powders as most primers appear to be within set parameters to a degree with the least variety.

Glad to hear I at least got the brass well chosen... :allegedly: :P :lol:

Thanks for the input folks.

Cheers
Last edited by PoorShot300 on 25 Nov 2018, 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Rod_outbak » 25 Nov 2018, 9:10 pm

I didnt pay too much attention to what they said about the powders; just went with their recipe for BM2, and tested that in my rifle as a starting load(as it was within .5gns of the starting load anyway).
So far, I havent seen any need to tweak the load.
These 2 shooting mates do a lot of benchrest and distance shooting, as well as a fair amount of hunting when they get the chance.
But that doesnt mean they have it right; you should start with the ADI-reccomended safe starting load, and work up from there.
What works in your rifle will likely vary anyway.
Is your new CZ a 24" or a 22" barrel? Hard to work out from what you've written above. If it's a 22" barrel, the ADI table is based on a 24" barrel, so you'd likely come up ~ 30-40fps below whats listed. But there are other factors that might vary this, so a chrony is about the only way to be certain about muzzle velocity. However, MV isnt really what you need; how well they group is more relevant.

I went with BM2 as my powder for the .223, but I have used AR2206H in .223, but it was a while back, and so I dont recall how well it worked.
I use AR2208 in most of my other rifles (.243, 7mm-08, .308, .30-30, .303Brit).

Yes; I am very lucky to have a great LGS who actually try to meet their customers needs. It makes it easier to shop locally.
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 25 Nov 2018, 9:28 pm

Being a virgin reloader, of course my main concern will be safety first, and starting on the lower end of things and work up.

My rifle will be a 24" w/1:9 twist, so may even begin .5-.75gn lower than suggested minimum. Sorry, i did have ADI bbl as 22", but went back and corrected it.

My focus will be on groups as I don't have a chrony anyway, so won't get lost down THAT rabbit hole at least lol.

AR2208 does get quite a lot of mentions also, so I guess it will come down to availability at the LGS, and any price variations at a given point in time. Having read a few threads now on .223 loads, I basically went with the most mentioned (perhaps other than the projies which I confused myself with after much data to & fro) that appears to be regularly available, so all in all, I wasn't too far off the mark in most cases.

Appreciate your input & sharing.

Cheers
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Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by Rod_outbak » 25 Nov 2018, 9:51 pm

So as a VERY rough guide, you should expect fairly close to the same muzzle velocities as printed in the ADI loading manual.

My suggestion would be to begin at the starting load listed by ADI for that projectile.
I wouldnt suggest going below that unless you have rock-solid advice you can trust to the contrary.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but your faster twist barrel isnt likely to reduce your muzzle velocity to an appreciable amount. A shorter barrel will, but a tighter twist doesnt look to make a huge amount of difference (very slight reduction, if anything).

The starting load listed by ADI is usually pretty mild, and if you go too far below it, you might cause additional pressure problems.

Chronographs are nice, but clustering all those little holes in a tiny area is even more exciting...

I've read a lot of places that some rifles dont like a particular powder and/or projectile.
So dont stock up big on a particular powder until you find it's working for your rifle...

Cheers,

Rod.
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Rod_outbak
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Corporal
 
Posts: 494
Queensland

Re: Lee (open to others also) reloaders please assist?

Post by PoorShot300 » 25 Nov 2018, 10:05 pm

Thanks for that added info., I wasn't sure about the variance due to twist, but had read threads about it, and that the minimum recommended are 'conservative' in the same breath. Understood about the pressure issues I may induce...

By all accounts the factory ASO/Aussie Outback ammo goes well in the CZ's, so I was just basing as much of my recipe as close to that as a start point, and vary from there.

Rethinking now, I may just get enough for 50-100 rnds for the burn-in and mix it up from there, taking in all supplied info. to date as a guide to 'alternatives' to what I begin with.

I will also cross reference my Hornady guide as well and hope to find some middle ground, as the gun will likely shoot better than me, regardless of the recipe lol.

Most of my shooting will be against myself, and not a trophy, so most game will be safe in the early days at any rate.
PoorShot300
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 127
Victoria

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