Projectile advice

[TassieTiger]

Kind gents (brings up another subject - do any women visit this forum), I have been reloading for approximately 6 months. Ow and enjoy all aspects...
My query for those with more experience is - is the weight of the projectile, the main factor when reloading for consistency?
Example - I have a really good load worked up using 120gn noslers. I also have an unopened box of VMAX 120’s - are they likely to work just as well given their the same weight ? Or is projectile design a huge factor - outside of the ballistic top vs hunting tip? My range is some drive away and I don’t reslly want to load up 100 vmax without testing but I’ve just run out of noslers and have a shoot coming up...?

[Sergeant Hartman]

Each brand of projectile and then every different model of the brand, and weight is different. Some ppl are pedantic and still even tweak in different batches of projectiles and powder

[TassieTiger]

So a 120gn ballistic tip from nosler is not going to perform the same as a 120gn ballistic tip from hornady...?

Bugger...that’s a lot of testing to be done.

[SCJ429]

If you change anything when reloading ie. Bullet, powder, case or primer, chances are it will shoot differently and you have to test your load again. If you are running near the max with Noslers, back your powder charge off and do a ladder test. If you have a chrono, look for a speed for the Vmax that is similar and you have a good place to start.

[bigpete]

Only way to know is to try it.
Usually they won't shoot the same,but sometimes they will.
For instance,my 45/70 double rifle shoots 300gn woodleigh soft points and 300gn hornady hollow points the same for all practical purposes. I realise that's hardly a precision rifle,but still....

[Rod_outbak]

TassieTiger,

In the case of my 7mm pills, the Nosler 120GnBT is a Boattail, wheras the 120Gn Vmax is a flat-base.
I'd expect that alone would affect your groupings for the same seating depth & charge.
The BC of each is notably different.(0.365 vs 0.417), so will affect drop over longer distances.

Having said that, I developed a load for my 7mm-08 using the 120BT's, and I use the same recipe for the 120 Vmax pills.
At some stage I should tweak it for the Vmax, but they are still pokkking things way past my skill-set, so I havent worried about it.

At the very least, the recipe for one will be a fair starting point for the other.

[Stix]

Im no expert...but if that were me, id check the different ogive measurement of the new bullet compared to old & make sure the new projuctile isnt nearly touching the lands/or closer to it if the first one was 20 thou or closer. (Hope that makes sense)

Then if not a real hot load, id do a quick little test--shoot a few of each charge--back off half a grain--same charge--half grain more.

You might be lucky & find a load/near load in that.
If not, youve not necessarily wasted you time anyway.

[Gaznazdiak]

I just love it when you're wondering whether to start a thread to ask a question and some kind soul does it first.

I have a similar question.

I find these results rather strange, I developed a load for Nosler 50gr BT that was, for someone of my limitations, quite accurate, 25.6gr 2206H.

I recently got a truckload of Hornady Roo Max 55gr soft nose, testing showed 25.5gr to give the best accuracy and here's the part I don't understand.
Like many, I keep range notes for each projectile so I just have to dial the scope to the desired setting and away we go. I was expecting that the Roo Max, being heavier and less aerodynamic would have needed slightly different settings on the scope, but strangely, they perform so well that I can use the Nosler settings.

I have only been able to use them at 100 and 150m because the wind has gone bloody mental up herel (80-90kph gusting to 115) so my silly question is basically WTF?
I know there is a load of variables, but the Nosler have a boat tail and that sharp pointy tip and the Roo Max have a flat bottom and a rounded soft tip, yet seem to perform the same.
Is 150m too close to show the difference between the two? I couldn't find a BC for either pill.

Seems the more I learn, the more I find I have to learn.

[Rod_outbak]

Gaznazdiak,

I couldnt find anything for certain, but I suspect the BC for the Hornady RooMax (Hornady part No 22666) is the same as the 2266 family, and would therefore be 0.235.
The Nosler 50Gn BT (Which is a BT-Varmint?? - they dont seem to have any .22cal BT-Hunting) should have a BC of around 0.238.
So, very close to the same BC for either.
The Nosler seems to be a Boattail, but the Hornady seems to be a Flat base. Maybe that compensates?

All I can add/suggest, is when my mate was cooking up loads for my .308, a number of the 165Gn loads were shooting <1" groups to within an inch of the same POI as the 150gn loads. Pretty sure the 150Gn loads were using Ballistic Tips, and the 165's were Hornady SST's.
Yet another mystery...

[bigrich]

So a 120gn ballistic tip from nosler is not going to perform the same as a 120gn ballistic tip from hornady...?

Bugger...that’s a lot of testing to be done.

try to make a educated guess on which projectile is going to suit your use the best and develop that load . for example i could develop a 120 nosler bt load for my 6.5x55 , but due to game variety encountered ,mostly just goat,for which the 120 would be great, but with the possibility of deer or pigs, the heavier, flexible nosler 140 partition is my go to load for this rifle. it's a lot more simple to have one load for a rifle as you get used to it's trajectory and what it will do under given conditions. while both balistic tip projectiles you mention are similar, copper jacket/bullet construction may differ and perform differently on different game weights. try to research their performance and pick the one that suits you best. otherwise by the time you find that perfect projectile/load combo , your barrel will be shot out from all the testing . this is my perspective, take from it what you will, and play safe

[bigrich]

a lot of rifles seem to be as individual as a finger print and do strange weird stuff sometimes

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks Rod,
The Roo Max certainly do the job and at 12.5 cents each, I'm a happy camper.

Nice doing with Ginge.
I had a couple of guys here jest about not shooting too many from the warren up the hill from my back door, but I got jealous, thinking of all the nooky going on up there.
I played Pop Goes The Wabbit the other night and got 9 of the little rooters.
Next morning there was 1 solitary fellow left wondering where he was going to hook up, so I gave him the good news as well.

All quiet in Boogie Town now.

[Stix]

So a 120gn ballistic tip from nosler is not going to perform the same as a 120gn ballistic tip from hornady...?

Bugger...that’s a lot of testing to be done.

Ive just had a thought with regard to what you may mean from "performance" & i see bigrich has already raised the point....& that is with performance on game....so not sure if you may mean this, or as i originally assumed, that you meant point of impact on paper...?

I know in 7mm bullets in the 120gn weight, my understanding is the sierra pro hunters & nos bt's are made for heavier game, whereas the vmax are a realtively frangible bullet giving explosive results on light game.
The velocity you drive them at will also be influential to the explosiveness....

I found sierra 120gn pro hunters just pencilled through goats, yet vmax 120's stopped them with decent holes no matter where they were hit, & that was with basically the same powder charge.

So as bigrich has alluded to, if you mean terminal performance on game, if you only want one load for various game, bullet selection will be a compromise.

[Stix]

... ... ...

Seems the more I learn, the more I find I have to learn.

Yes...it does...

I used to just shoot stuff...load...shoot...dress out & eat it.

Then my mind began to wonder about how far a bullet is seated in the case...

I figured the die is adjustable, & it has a fair bit of adjustment, so what happens when this changes .

Little did i know at the time, that was me crossing the event horizon into the black hole that is reloading...i cant see that ill ever escape its gravity now...

Im glad you've fallen in there with me gaz..it would be horrible to be in here all alone.

[Sergeant Hartman]

From my research, two different projectiles with similar bc going at similar speeds should have similar drops on a scope, possibly even if they have different weights. As bullet drop is based on the aero (bc) and the muzzle velocity.

[bladeracer]

From my research, two different projectiles with similar bc going at similar speeds should have similar drops on a scope, possibly even if they have different weights. As bullet drop is based on the aero (bc) and the muzzle velocity.

This is correct, but is not a guarantee that both will shoot to the same point-of-aim or have similar accuracy.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Theory is never the same as reality. Lol

[bigrich]

Theory is never the same as reality. Lol

Depends on what reality you’re in ziad

[Gaznazdiak]

... ... ...

Seems the more I learn, the more I find I have to learn.

Yes...it does...

I used to just shoot stuff...load...shoot...dress out & eat it.

Then my mind began to wonder about how far a bullet is seated in the case...

I figured the die is adjustable, & it has a fair bit of adjustment, so what happens when this changes .

Little did i know at the time, that was me crossing the event horizon into the black hole that is reloading...i cant see that ill ever escape its gravity now...

Im glad you've fallen in there with me gaz..it would be horrible to be in here all alone.

Oh mate, it can be a frustrating place down in the reloading black hole, but when you get all your incantations and ju-ju beads right, it's the sort of thing that makes you giggle with childish glee, huh?

I made a "suck it and see" decision to not worry about seating the Roo Max half a poofteenth from the lands, I stuffed them all the way in to the cannelure, figured it was where it was for a reason.

Tested them and Robert's your Mother's brother!

If the wind here ever drops back below cyclonic, I'll be able to stretch their legs and see how they go past 150.

One thing, now I'm in the hole with you, did you fart in here, or is it just me?

[TassieTiger]

Help me...I’m falling...
Thank for all replies.
I guess I’ll just have to get out there and shoot more...darn it. But I will use the loads I’ve worked up as potential start points (will go minus 1 to be safe on same weight projectile).

When I mentioned performance- I was thinking poi, but BR did raise interesting point...which is ultimately what I want the rifles to be doing - 1 shot kills and fast take down. I’m still getting my loads sorted and still NEED rifle / shooting time to become more confident before hunting a lot more than I currently do...if that makes sense. Cheers.

[Gaznazdiak]

Welcome to the black hole Tas.

[bigrich]

Help me...I’m falling...
Thank for all replies.
I guess I’ll just have to get out there and shoot more...darn it. But I will use the loads I’ve worked up as potential start points (will go minus 1 to be safe on same weight projectile).

When I mentioned performance- I was thinking poi, but BR did raise interesting point...which is ultimately what I want the rifles to be doing - 1 shot kills and fast take down. I’m still getting my loads sorted and still NEED rifle / shooting time to become more confident before hunting a lot more than I currently do...if that makes sense. Cheers.

mate this ballistics thing will do your head in. i went out this morning and just for kicks loaded up some 120 gr nosler bt's for my 6.5x55 , and they shot silly accurate. better than i've ever got with 140's. now i'm re-evaluating 120's v 140's for the game i hunt. i suppose if it was easy to work this stuff out it wouldn't be any fun hey ? with regard to 50 gr projectiles for my 222, vmax are more explosive, noslers have a thicker base and stay together better. so i intend using noslers as a all rounder for various game weights

[Rod_outbak]

The Nosler Varmageddens are very similar construction to the Vmax pills, and flat bases (same as Vmax).

The Nosler Ballistic Tip - Varmint are a bit heavier built projectile, and they seem to be all boattail.

I think the BT - Hunting projectile are heavier-built again, and they are all boattail(except the .458 pill...).
I dont think there are many calibers where the BT - Hunting and BT - Varmint projectiles overlap.
[Only a few 6mm & 25Cal as far as I can see]

The 110gn .308 Nosler Vamagedden looks to be trying to compete directly with the 110gn Vmax.

[Bent Arrow]

Well, just to add to the confusion....... My tikka T3 Hunter in 25-06 will drop federal 117gn and PPU 95 gn factory rounds on a 4" gong out to 300m using the same points of aim. I know it shouldn't work, but it does?

[TassieTiger]

The combinations of variables in developing a recipe for a particular rifle is absolutely mind bending...
Cases, primers, powder type, powder amount, projectiles, seating depths....etc. then there is the environment - humidity, temperature, wind....
I’m not a mathematics major. Utvthere must be thousands of combinations alone, per firearm across what can be controlled...

[Gaznazdiak]

The combinations of variables in developing a recipe for a particular rifle is absolutely mind bending...
Cases, primers, powder type, powder amount, projectiles, seating depths....etc. then there is the environment - humidity, temperature, wind....
I’m not a mathematics major. Utvthere must be thousands of combinations alone, per firearm across what can be controlled...

When all that convoluted complexity stops being daunting and becomes fascinating Tas, you'll know it's got you.

More variables = more testing = more shooting.

Hard to see a downside there, eh?

[SCJ429]

Bent Arrow, there is only a couple of inches difference in drop between your two bullets in the 25-06 so it is no surprise that they can both strike a four inch target. When practicing for Metalic Silhouette I can hit the 400 metre turkeys with a 50 grain bullet from my 223 when it is sighted in for a 80 grain bullet. The smaller BC is compensated a little bit by the extra speed at shorter ranges.

[Bristles1]

The only true test is in the shooting and the performance on game. I have a 257 Roberts on a Sako action and it shoots the lights out with Nosler Ballistic Tip 100 grns and Sierra Pro Hunters. Performance on pigs is with the Pro hunters as they are designed for tougher game. The BTs handle them but not as consistently. Have shot quite a few red deer with both and they all are dead, so go have fun and try out a few different loads and combos. It can be fun but you may end up like me dozens of different projectile types and weights and dead pigs with all of them. Confusing but fun.