STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 4:41 pm

bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose. :unknown:


Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.


Would any manufacturer mix inches and meters in the same statement? One-inch at 100m is well under 1MoA.


The only rifle I've ever bought with a 1moa Gtee is my Tikka and it hasn't lived up to that so far using premium ammo :unknown: Do I care NO! as I know I will be able to get it to shoot better with some handloads and possibly a change of stock (which will be the first thing I do) then set about knocking up some handloads for it.

Funny thing is I shoot 3 shot groups with it and they average around 2" I guess but the first shot seems to be on the money for the first shot in each group so it will certainly get the job done in the paddock, not much good at the range which is fine as it's not a target rifle it's a hunting rifle so it's not that big a deal to me if it's not a "Tack Driver all day long" I don't need it to be, it just has to lob the first round where I want it and so far it's been able to do that. :drinks:

Not sure what you are getting at re the 1moa at 100m? :unknown:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 4:44 pm

100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.

I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).

It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.

How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 4:52 pm

TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.

I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).

It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.

How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...


You do know that your 30mm group is like 2 or 3mm bigger than their 1MOA gtee, not eactly earth shatteringly bad and going to cause any great diff if any in real world hunting situations, no doubt they shoot their group in a enclosed range too - don't worry about all the MOA Bs have you actually tested it out in the field on game or only shot it at the range?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 5:17 pm

I’ve only shot at my private area, not hunting with it until I understand it’s capability - this group very below measures 21mm - well better than moa at 100 (that’s the gtee, effectively 1 inch group at 100)

But then the exact same load, cool barrel, etc...shot this stringer at top (if that were a roo head shot, might have hit 1 out of 3).
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 6:06 pm

TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.

I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).

It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.

How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...


It's quite likely, which is why I don't consider warranty to have any value. I have never allowed somebody else to service any new vehicle I've bought because it might void the warranty, it's far more important to me to know the servicing has been done properly, by the bloke that'll be most out of pocket if he screws it up - me!

I've never been swayed by marketing hype about accuracy, and I doubt I've ever bought a firearm that guaranteed any particular level of accuracy.
Any centrefire bolt-rifle that will shoot MoA to 100m straight out of the box is just fine for me, and I know I can tighten it up further if I need to. My lever rifles for example can probably maintain around 3-4MoA at 100m, iron sights, off the bench, with my eyesight, and maybe 2MoA scoped. As far as pure accuracy goes, it sucks, but for the tools I'm using, I already knew they weren't going to shoot like a real rifle :-)

When I'm looking at a rifle I'm unfamiliar with I ignore anything offered by the manufacturer or anybody that makes money out of reviewing firearms, I go to forums where people just like me have paid their hard-earned for the rifle. It doesn't take long to see if owners are particularly happy or unhappy with their purchase.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 6:12 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I’ve only shot at my private area, not hunting with it until I understand it’s capability - this group very below measures 21mm - well better than moa at 100 (that’s the gtee, effectively 1 inch group at 100)

But then the exact same load, cool barrel, etc...shot this stringer at top (if that were a roo head shot, might have hit 1 out of 3).


MoA is roughly one-inch at 100yds, 29mm at 100m.

That's why I don't shoot three-shot groups, it doesn't tell you how the rifle consistently groups.

If you fire thirty rounds and they all fall within a 50mm circle I would say you have found its consistent ability and can be confident that any shot you take will be within 25mm of your point of aim. Likewise, if you shoot ten three-shot groups and lay them over each other, and they all fall within a 50mm circle, then that's how accurate the rifle/load is - even if five of those groups are cloverleafs.

As already mentioned by others though, if it's not a target rifle it doesn't need to be able to shoot groups bigger than two at most. But I totally agree that tighter groups makes load development easier.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 6:49 pm

TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.

I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).

It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.

How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...


Tassie
all due respect but ROFL you are being scammed by a salesman :lol:
ring the distributor winchester you may get a surprise :lol:
have a watch of this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsoLYo4xG14
the only thing I would be worried about is shooting reloads under warranty
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 6:58 pm

Hmmm....that video is interesting...he seems pretty darn confident.

I did email Steyr USA as I said I would but thus far didn’t hear back. I guess Winchester Au is Aust distribution for steyr?
I think my problem as a relatively new shooter is - I don’t know what I don’t know...if the sales guy is telling me it’s fine...as are others on here - then is it okay for what it is - I don’t know?
I do know my other rifles are definitely more consistent but - they are diff profile barrels...
Argghhh...to do...?
Suppose it wont hurt to flick the same email locally and see if they respond. The guy in the vid reckons you can’t find a more accurate out of box rifle....hmmm.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 7:05 pm

marksman wrote:Tassie
all due respect but ROFL you are being scammed by a salesman :lol:
ring the distributor winchester you may get a surprise :lol:
have a watch of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsoLYo4xG14
the only thing I would be worried about is shooting reloads under warranty


If it won't shoot MoA they buy it back - no questions asked!
That means none of this testing rubbish, maybe send that video to the distributor.
Then get a Ruger American :-)

Under Australian Consumer Law I doubt they could void warranty simply from shooting handloaded ammo.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 7:19 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I’ve only shot at my private area, not hunting with it until I understand it’s capability - this group very below measures 21mm - well better than moa at 100 (that’s the gtee, effectively 1 inch group at 100)

But then the exact same load, cool barrel, etc...shot this stringer at top (if that were a roo head shot, might have hit 1 out of 3).


So what are you going to hunt with it?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 7:24 pm

At the end of all this are you using h/loads or factory loads ?
If it was me i'd use h/loads and go back to scratch look at the specks and powder for the 30-06 in the ADI manual select a midrange weight projectile or the one recommended best in the 30-06 then i'd start with powder weights until I find the best group for that powder then start seating at different depths you will notice almost instantly the change then adjust accordingly all my rifles shoot excellent with ADI powders yet a mate swears by alliant powders yet I can get his rifles shooting just as good with ADI powders so each to their own as far as powders go
Get one bullet, one powder and stick with it until it shoots or is proven it don't work but i'm very doubtful it won't shoot
Good luck
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 7:25 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:I’ve only shot at my private area, not hunting with it until I understand it’s capability - this group very below measures 21mm - well better than moa at 100 (that’s the gtee, effectively 1 inch group at 100)

But then the exact same load, cool barrel, etc...shot this stringer at top (if that were a roo head shot, might have hit 1 out of 3).


So what are you going to hunt with it?


Forester Roo and Deer were the candidates.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 7:29 pm

At the end of all this are you using h/loads or factory loads ?
If it was me i'd use h/loads and go back to scratch look at the specks and powder for the 30-06 in the ADI manual select a midrange weight projectile or the one recommended best in the 30-06 then i'd start with powder weights until I find the best group for that powder then start seating at different depths you will notice almost instantly the change then adjust accordingly all my rifles shoot excellent with ADI powders yet a mate swears by alliant powders yet I can get his rifles shooting just as good with ADI powders so each to their own as far as powders go
Get one bullet, one powder and stick with it until it shoots or is proven it don't work but i'm very doubtful it won't shoot
Good luck


I tried 3 different factory loads and couldn't get it to shoot a consistent 100mm group with any of it.
I then tried all recommended ADI ranges for AR 2209 powder with 165's and 200gn's - at .3 under max COAL.
Only 1 load out of the entire range performed reasonable - with the 200's it was 53gns of powder and with the 165 it was 58gns.
I then tried 5 or 6 different seating lengths on each 53 and 58 gn loads.
I could get a couple of groups to within MOA but nothing consistent as per photos.
LGS is now suggesting to go through load process again with 150 SST's.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 7:45 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I then tried all recommended ADI ranges for AR 2209 powder with 165's and 200gn's - at .3 under max COAL.


Do you mean 30-thou off the lands or a max length listed in a manual?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 7:57 pm

30 thou off the lands as per my own measurements. I used the candle / blackened method on both the 200gns and the 165gns - which varied significantly between the two. In fact the hunting rounds were almost 5 mm shorter than max measured length...with the 200gns max was 83.9 and the winchester hunting 180's were 78. something...

On MM's advice, I've emailed all my testing data, several photos and a request for advice to Winchester Australia.
I told them that I am contacting them based on advice from more experienced, but public forum members and I have detailed my testing methods to the letter.
I explained that the rifle was purchased on the assumption that as promised - see video - this rifle would shoot MOA with factory ammunition (not premium) and this one thus far - will not get anywhere near their accuracy claims. I further advised that results have significantly improved with specific hand loading, that has/was discussed in detail with the local gun shop from where the rifle was purchased.
Ive sent them details of my other rifles and their groupings as at least something that shows I can pull a trigger occasionally well to at least a certain level anyways :silent:
See what transpires...

EDIT - If it comes to it - is there any issue with me showing them the link to this topic ???
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 8:07 pm

Most blokes up here shoot 160gr -180gr the 150gr -168gr being the most accurate in their opinion so i'd try a 150gr-165gr quite comfortable with a 1-9 twist
150gr requires OAL 3.300'' AR 2209 min 54gr for 2747fps max 57.8gr for 2927fps
165gr re...…… OAL 3.300'' AR2209 min53gr for 2678fps max 59gr for 2938fps
Not sure you had this info so just put it up incase
just necking the cases with one of these loads worked up i'd be surprised you wouldn't get it to shoot sub moa
If not then I presume you have a different problem

Good luck
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 8:20 pm

Yeah - cheers for that. I have ADI, Nick Harvey and Speer manuals, so I try and reference those.
The claims are MOA accuracy with non premium factory rounds...unless, there was a couple of earth quakes when I was shooting - 4 inches was best I could manage and I had a 3rd person have a crack yesterday as well, to rule out some weird ass thing between me and this particular rifle lol.
3.3 inches equals some 83.82mm so I'm ever so slightly longer - but there's a 4-5 mm jump with factory loads...which it clearly, does not like...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 8:36 pm

Yeah tiger i'm hearin ya mate I see your post on seasoning or running in a barrel the 180gr group looks good looks like you got it sorted :thumbsup:
I have 3 sakos diff calibers and none shot moa with most factory ammo but shoot 1/2'' or less with h/loads :thumbsup:
These days it's buyer beware if buying on a companies word although some aren't too bad but some it's takes what seems a life time to claim on faulty
items because in there eyes it's you that is the problem in most cases and some times their right :thumbsup: :o
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 8:46 pm

Yeah - I wish it was sorted. Because that same ammo on the next two trips was off the page...and that’s the issue...consistent grouping is not there...even if you look at pics above with 83.60 hand loads - one group was 21mm - an hour later 2.5 inches with exact same ammo.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 9:13 pm

Geez that's a lot Tiger something amiss there alright
Not saying this is your problem but I had a sako 25-06 and it done the same one day 1/2'' next day 3'' so glass bedded it same thing only it tightened to 3/8''
but next day 3'' so sent scope back for testing it came back nothing wrong so kept looking nearly sent me mad so decided to send the rifle back took the scope off
and bugga me if something didn't rattle ever so lightly inside the scope so I sent it back paid extra money and bought a Swarovski z3 and bingo original hand loads
were consistent 6mths later sold the 25-06 kept the scope bought a 7mm mag and started again this time it fell into place with the help of some good people
on this forum
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 9:41 pm

There are So so many variables when setting up a new rifle and I’ve looked at my mounts/rings, picatinny rail and I’ve now tried two different scopes - I’ve also been questioning myself if I’m expecting too much - as others have said, this is not a target rifle... but my steyr pro varmint is just fantastic to shoot...it gives me so much confidence and was the main reason I bought another steyr over another tikka or another brand...

Part of the issue is, I keep thinking I’ve got it sorted but then...as youve mentioned with your sako, diff day = diff results and it starts making you look pretty silly on a forum - yay, check this group out I’ve shot...Sh@t, look at this crap now...
It still may not be the rifle...as previously mentioned - the current scope is a fixed low power leupold, making it a little difficult to pinpoint precisely the same poi at 110m, I also am aware that the fore end of the stock on these pro hunters is known to flex so if the action heats up and touches the fore end again poi could change...
Although it’s a little frustrating- at the same time it’s a BIG learning opportunity for me, wading through the enourmous knowledge base / answers that have been given thus far.
It’s a good community here, no pretensious bulldust like some other forums who would likely ridicule a person for making a query like this one... I do appreciate everyone’s input, even if it’s judt their own similar story, it’s food for thought that promotes possibles...
Cheers and thanks.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 9:58 pm

Don't feel silly mate I pretty much think everyone of us have been there at one stage of our gun ownership stage I know I have
It's a fun forum and I myself has learnt heaps on here I hope you get it sorted mate but bit hard for us blokes with no sighting and hands on with the
rifle in concern
cheers
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 16 Dec 2018, 3:47 pm

So...went up to range again and this time took a known local shooter - cost me a six pack to get his opinion - bargain lol.
He’s a guy I really don’t know very well but I know he has been shooting for a looong time in clubs and field.
He told me to bring only factory ammunition and he was going to shoot 5 shot groups from a rear bag and bipod rest. Took win 180’s, Core-Lokt 180’s and fusion 150’s.
He asked to go into 70 yards for the first 2x 5 groups - as he, like me thought the scope vs 3 inch decals were a bit of a mismatch. Anyway, he said he sighted the black circle each shot.
Here are his results at 70 yards and then back at 110 yards.
This took us a long time - 3 hours to ensure barrel was cool enough. I’m happy to see his results - pretty much emulated mine with factory ammo...he was not impressed but did say the 150’s would be worth developing and maybe 165’s. But as he pointed out - you don’t buy a 30-06 to shoot 150gn bullets...
Still waiting for winch Aust - has been weekend ...
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Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Member-Deleted » 16 Dec 2018, 4:14 pm

That's not too bad if you load your own it'll get better just getting what your rifle likes :thumbsup:
One of my rifles shot worse than that it now shoots less than 1/2'' with H/loads :thumbsup:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 16 Dec 2018, 6:28 pm

I wouldn't be worried if it only shoots 150gn projies better than 180gn, you only have fallow down in Tas and they aren't hard to knock over with well placed shots and the roos well they fall over fine to 50gn projectiles so I'm sure a 150gn projectile will see them turned inside out in no time. :D :drinks:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 16 Dec 2018, 6:33 pm

I'm glad you have got someone else to help you test this rifle that has some experience, it shows that it's not you and points more at the rifle
common sense would suggest that any test to check performance of an moa guaranteed rifle would be done with factory ammo
the primo round stuff being better is just shat, the ammo I have been told by warranty gunsmiths that is used for testing is the federal blue box ammo
just because it costs more kanga means squat

the reason that I said that reloads may be a problem for warranty is some make's do not warranty reloads eg... tikka's are apparently not made to reload for and are not covered under warranty if shooting reloads so I have been told :unknown:

can I ask you why 150 grain projectiles are not meant for a 30-06 :wtf: please explain :lol:

there are several reasons a rifle may have vertical but it needs to be looked at by a smith to confirm it
what you have done is shown it's not your ability that is the problem
IMO this rifle should shoot much better than this :allegedly: I hope it works out for you
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 16 Dec 2018, 6:41 pm

I see Winchester are shutting down their ammunition manufacturing here in Aus, I don't think it will affect you in any way with your issues.

What deer do you have in Tas to shoot mate? I wouldn't worry if the only ones to shoot are the 150's I'm sure they will roll the deer fine
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 16 Dec 2018, 7:18 pm

they drop fine with 150's

Image

if you can shoot straight :thumbsup:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 16 Dec 2018, 7:24 pm

and so do reds at 300

Image

I have also dropped many sambar with 150's out of my brno 30-06
nothing wrong with them. its more about shot placement than projectile weight
no man can predict what a rifle will like till he try's it, the rifle will let you know what it like's you cannot force it :drinks: :lol:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 16 Dec 2018, 7:35 pm

Exactly! All these pre conceived ideas of a rifle should or shouldn't like or you have to use this specific projectile/weight etc makes me laugh a bit, as you said Marksman, a particular rifle will like what a particular rifle likes, no good trying to force something that more than likely won't happen, just shoot what it likes and be done with it.
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