STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by sungazer » 12 Dec 2018, 9:46 am

Dont decrease the distance the bullet has a wobble for the first part of its flight until it settles into what a lot of people call going to sleep. if anything 140 yrds is a better testing distance.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 5:42 pm

^surely this is jest?

Anyways - spent a few hours testing again today. Unfortunately it came out bloody hot again and at one point, barrel became too hot to touch - which was not what I wanted at all but it had only shot 6 bullets after being cold, so caught me out.

So kept distance at 120m.
53.0gns of Ar2209 powder pushing 200gn ELDX.
Shot off a steel rest that lightly cradles fore end and stock, mounted to a table. Free to recoil.

Noticed a fair bit of vertical stringing - 2 and 3 inches on some loads.
Be keen to hear people’s opinions except for the outright obvious.
Was concentrating on bullet seat depth this time out - charge remained same.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 6:33 pm

Too much vertical, looks like you are going too slow. One group that is OK next to other groups that have a ton of vertical. I would say if you shoot 8360 again, chances are it will have heaps of vertical. Do you know how fast they are going?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 6:42 pm

Funny you say that...
I don’t currently have a chrono so only guessing speeds at moment, but even if it were too slow - wouldn’t it be consistent slow resulting in groupings?
ADI advises 53.7 is max at 2580 FPS and I’m at 53.0gn.
This was not shot by me so I didn’t include it in the results. But...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Bill » 13 Dec 2018, 7:34 pm

Id be tinkering with loads that gave the best group as a start point, sometimes we become accustomed to our hand loading brillance lol or luck.

Try seating them a little deeper as most bullets can handle a jump, load up 3 x diff powder charges and repeat another 10 thou deeper etc.

I recently couldnt get some barnes TTSX to group better than 2 moa in my 6.5 grendel, seated 25 thou deeper and tried 2 slight lower charges, bingo found an accuracy node only 0.3gr under what was crap. It now puts 5 into 0.8moa

I now time my time on the bench esp if new gun load development so that heat cant be an issue. 5 shots and I ll time 8mins exactly (20-25deg). If hotter you need wait 10mins

is the barrel free floated and bedded ?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 7:35 pm

TassieTiger wrote:^surely this is jest?

Anyways - spent a few hours testing again today. Unfortunately it came out bloody hot again and at one point, barrel became too hot to touch - which was not what I wanted at all but it had only shot 6 bullets after being cold, so caught me out.

So kept distance at 120m.
53.0gns of Ar2209 powder pushing 200gn ELDX.
Shot off a steel rest that lightly cradles fore end and stock, mounted to a table. Free to recoil.

Noticed a fair bit of vertical stringing - 2 and 3 inches on some loads.
Be keen to hear people’s opinions except for the outright obvious.
Was concentrating on bullet seat depth this time out - charge remained same.


You fired more than three rounds of each surely? Three rounds is not enough to make development decisions on, in my opinion.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 7:40 pm

If it were me I would do a ladder test using the longest COAL you can, it may be limited by the length of you magizene.. Increase the load by 0.2 of a grain until you run out of room in the case, or until you are not comfortable. You don't want a highly compressed load. If you are six grains over book max you might be pulling a few bullets at the end of the test.

Shoot them at 150 or 200 metres if you can, the extra distance will make the group larger, I find if I shoot at 100 I have all 10 stacked on top of each other and it is hard to interpreted the results. You will have to plot each shot on a pad of paper so you know what shot went where. Shoot slowly, don't let the barrel get hot.

Stop shooting when you see any pressure signs, extractor marks on the head stamp, sticky bolt. If you are blowing primers out of the case you have gone too far. Then look for some bullets clustered at the same vertical plane, we are only interested in the height, not any horizontal dispersion. These bullets are going around the same speed, you then do your load testing around those weight charges.

When you do your load testing only worry about the groups with the least vertical dispersion. After that you can do some fine tuning with seating depth.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 7:47 pm

Use the best brass you have, of the same headstamp and have been fired about the same number of times. Used the least amount of neck tension you can, if you have standard dies try sizing only 1/4 of the neck. Neck tension is critical, it makes the most amount of difference of anything else you are doing when reloading. If you brass is once fired and there is enough tension left in the case to hold the pill, reload it without resizing.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 7:56 pm

Bill wrote:

I recently couldnt get some barnes TTSX to group better than 2 moa in my 6.5 grendel, seated 25 thou deeper and tried 2 slight lower charges, bingo found an accuracy node only 0.3gr under what was crap. It now puts 5 into 0.8moa
?



Bill, that Grendel of yours has a lot more in it, I have not seen one that wouldn't shoot 1/4 MOA in a well sorted rifle.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 8:02 pm

[quote="TassieTiger"
I don’t currently have a chrono so only guessing speeds at moment, but even if it were too slow - wouldn’t it be consistent slow resulting in groupings?
..[/quote]

She is being fairly consistant in the resultant groupings, you are getting two inches of vertical consistently. Probably about a 70fps ES.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 8:23 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You will have to plot each shot on a pad of paper so you know what shot went where.


A GoPro at the target is useful to record the order of the shots.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 8:29 pm

I spent all my money on optics but if I had a GoPro that would work well. Nice one BR.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 8:37 pm

I tested 2 x 3 shot groupings for each length bullet.
The longest was just touching the lands at 83.93 (absolute max in this is 83.95).
I went down .3 each load to 79.7 - I just didn’t put up 20 photos.
The 83.60 was clearly the best of the bunch but, there was significant vertical stringing as can be seen from a fellow shooter in last photo.
The cases are all once fired hunting (fusion) cases - full length resized.
That being said - neck tension WAS different per load, I could feel it as I was seating some bullets - some would almost fall in and others were a little extra...which didn’t overly concern me.

I guess my question now - if you bought a hunting rifle, brand new and grabbed some middle of the road counter ammo, went out and tried to zero your scope but couldn’t get better than 2-3 inch groups, would you return said rifle or it is what it is? There must be a LOT of hunters who don’t reload and based on my groupings - they’d be missing a shed load...
Yes - the 83.60 groupings look like getting better and there is now more development needed (up in charge I suspect based on advice) but how many ppl would not be happy / would be happy with this performance? (Assuming of course I am not a half wit and can pull a trigger now and again lol)
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by sungazer » 13 Dec 2018, 8:43 pm

The distance and wobble is not in jest. Many very experienced balatisticians will advise that 140 yrds is the best distance to test your loads. I could give you references in Bryan litz book and others but cant be arsed.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 8:50 pm

A friend runs a shooting course at the range, only 10% of hunters can shoot the required one inch group at 100. They would not be using a 30-06, usually considerably smaller and easier to shoot.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 8:57 pm

Here’s another pic - Warmed up with my .260, but it has much more powerful scope 6.5-20.
The 06 shoots a M8 6 x fixed.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:01 pm

sungazer wrote:The distance and wobble is not in jest. Many very experienced balatisticians will advise that 140 yrds is the best distance to test your loads. I could give you references in Bryan litz book and others but cant be arsed.


Never heard of a wobbly bullet that straightens. Isn’t that like saying accuracy was crap at 200 but came right at 300...I’d assume the 140 yard accuracy test would be recommended because of variables maybe. But, regardless - I didn’t shorted my test length.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:03 pm

SCJ429 wrote:A friend runs a shooting course at the range, only 10% of hunters can shoot the required one inch group at 100. They would not be using a 30-06, usually considerably smaller and easier to shoot.

Kind of makes something of a mockery of Manufactures Moa claims...I would have thought obtaining decent accuracy(inch at a hundred) before going hunting would be mandatory...perhaps not is seems...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Dec 2018, 9:24 pm

The Bryn Litz article is Epicyclic Swerve, my understanding from reading the article was that he could no produce better MOA groups at longer distances due to the damping of the pitch and yaw of the bullet. I may have to re- read the article.

A manufactures claim may be valid if their skilled operator can produce the results with ammunition suited to the rifle. It appears that 90% of hunters cannot pick suitable ammunition or have the skills to get the job done. Shooting well is difficult, it takes a lot of practice. I learn something new all the time.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 9:37 pm

You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose. :unknown:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by sungazer » 13 Dec 2018, 9:45 pm

I helped do some load development with a very skilled shooter on the weekend. We were using two chronos the Ohler a standard in the industry perfectly set up and a magneto speed. Turned out there was a pretty constant difference so either result was acceptable.
He shot quite a few loads 3 of each in 0.2 gn steps. He plotted the MV increase against load and had a linear line to a point say of 20fps per 0.2 grn then reached a point where the again linear line changed to 10 fps per 0.2 grn.

He is a excellent shooter however the groupings which were shot on individual target so the group and the horizontal step could be seen. Well the result was not a conclusive elevation against MV nor where the evident Nodes.

We have concluded it is about achieving the MV that you are after for that particular bullet there is a sweet spot in MV and BC. Then adjust seating depth to achieve a good group.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:52 pm

bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose. :unknown:


Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:55 pm

sungazer wrote:I helped do some load development with a very skilled shooter on the weekend. We were using two chronos the Ohler a standard in the industry perfectly set up and a magneto speed. Turned out there was a pretty constant difference so either result was acceptable.
He shot quite a few loads 3 of each in 0.2 gn steps. He plotted the MV increase against load and had a linear line to a point say of 20fps per 0.2 grn then reached a point where the again linear line changed to 10 fps per 0.2 grn.

He is a excellent shooter however the groupings which were shot on individual target so the group and the horizontal step could be seen. Well the result was not a conclusive elevation against MV nor where the evident Nodes.

We have concluded it is about achieving the MV that you are after for that particular bullet there is a sweet spot in MV and BC. Then adjust seating depth to achieve a good group.


.2gn steps is another level all together. I wouldn’t even trust my hornady scales to be consistent enough, in a black roof shed with high/low humidity to weigh .2 accurately.
I did test down to .5gn with my 223...
I do think I’ll be buying a chrono in the future...Bug has bitten.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:12 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:You do know it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle? 30mm group would be fine for this rifles intended purpose. :unknown:


Yeah, I know...it’s also a lightweight hunting rifle, this part of my question is, is this acceptable...
I guess I’m wanting to meet manufacturers claims of 1 inch, 3 shot group at 100m and I want to be able to do that reliably.
It may well be that 200gn projectiles are not conducive to being Moa in this rifle...I get that...I’m just testing / seeking knowledge.


So what's the rifle used for ie hunting or target shooting? and yes a 30mm group is more than enough to shoot animals with at normal hunting type ranges.

What are you intending hunting with it?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 11:19 pm

If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!

Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Dec 2018, 7:22 am

Your 30-06 will be able to shoot better than two inch groups, probably better than MOA with the projectiles you are using. Yes factory hunting rifles have the potential. A friends Winchester extreme weather M70 has a light fluted barrel. Shoots factory loads into two inch groups. With some basic load development using SMK it can produce groups in the .4s off a bipod. This is a 7mm Remington Magnum and I have to shoot very slowly so I don't cook the barrel.

I used SMK because I had them lying around in the shed, he doesn't use them for hunting.

Keep at it, you will get there, and it is great practice.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 7:52 am

TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!

Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...



no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo

the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better :thumbsup:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 9:25 am

marksman wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!

Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...



no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo

the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better :thumbsup:


Its amazing what some people are happy with when it comes to accuracy.

Ive seen rifles sighted in with groups in the order of--& im not kidding--6"-8" for goat smashing...& that is off the bench...!!
Imagine a group off the shoulder... :crazy:
Poor goats...!!
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 9:28 am

TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!

Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...


That's about what my Tikka 308 does with the factory ammo I've tested in it, and no it's ordinary but it had killed everything I've pointed it at so far :unknown: but I know it will shoot better than that if I try a few more brands but for me that isn't worth the effort as I reload so will find a combo that will make it shoot fine I'm sure (I honestly think it's the stock it's in at the moment) I have a couple of other options (plastic HACK SPIT or a Lam one) so will experiment with those before I venture down the reload path (everythings there ready for reloads) but I just want to test my theory out first then go from there.

The way I look at all this stuff is I'm happy if the first shot on a cold bore is on the money or close to it as that's all I need generally to get the job done, it's not too often I have to follow up with another shot anyway.

I reckon what you should do is set up a few targets at whatever distance you like and just take a shot at each one with say 5mins between shots and just see how it gos in a more realistic hunting scenario. :drinks:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 9:47 am

marksman wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:If you look at the 3rd photo - 83.60, that group measured 21mm. Good enough for deer and roo as long as it will be consistent.
The issue for me, especially early in, was the 3+ inch spreads from some of the other ammo - in particular some of the factory ammo that is 2-3mm shorter in length was spraying.
I’ve now fired 3 types of factory ammo through this rifle and cannot better 2.5 inch groupings. Hand loading - yes, i’m getting there...I will make it shoot darn the world!!!

Now, if you weren’t a hand loader and bought a brand new (yes - light weight, carry around sporting gun with fluted barrel) rifle for $1400 that was shooting 60-75mm groupings - would you be content? Serious question...



no feckin way would I be happy
even at 30mm it would be gone back to be checked out and fixed
that rifle should be shooting 1/2 moa with factory ammo

the reason for the hunting accuracy proverb is the american hunters that can hit a bucket sized object with there 30-30 are only shooting at 50 yard distances and dont care enough if they spoil meat, having an accurate rifle is very important, 3 shots into a 10 cent piece at 100 is minimum for hunting
one ragged hole is better :thumbsup:


Based on the fact the manufacturers “only” claim Moa “capability” (and that term is important), I don’t think you’d find any retail outlet that would accept your wants here at 1/2 Moa.

I knew what I was buying - I have the same rifle (223) in a heavy barrel, but I wanted a light weight walker, so I knew I’d be giving up some consistency and some accuracy.

I guess it’s a matter of perspective - what is reasonable spread from a hunt load. 6” for goats is disgusting - I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t shoot with ppl that thought it was okay...but then I’d agree that 2 inches would be fine for goats...I’d prefer 1 inch consistency but I’d live with 2.

For the sake of curiosity and obtaining knowledge more so than anything - I’ll email Steyr, send them my 3 pages of load test / data and see what they say.
Cheers for the discussion - Tas.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
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