STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 06 Feb 2019, 2:06 pm

So customer service manager has finally got my steyr rifle to their gun smith for testing with some interesting results. This is what the gun smith wrote back to Winchester:


“The Rifle has been fitted with a Meopta scope , bore solvent used to remove fouling and test fired.
100 m using Super X 180 g , 2.5 “ group x 3 shots .
100 m group using Super X 150 g , under 1 “ 3 shots
It’s shooting very well with the 150 g ,
Unfortunately I can’t change how it shoots with heavier pills.”

So the question now is - is the rifle meeting advertised claims?

My argument is that the “general” base projectile weight for the 06 is the 180gn projectile (I have a 260 that groups 140’s 1/2 Moa) so clearly didn’t purchase to shoot 150’s...so if it’s shooting 2.5inxh groups via 3 shots with 180’s - with a lead sled via accredited gun smith - then its a long way away from meeting advertised claims.
Thoughts or advice??

Update - customer service manager has advised he is putting in advice to Steyr direct that rifle is under performing - he said they are usually very fast and good RE any issues. So we shall play the wait game again...
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 07 Feb 2019, 8:38 am

it really isn't doing what you want it to or expected is it Tassie :unknown:

there smith did very basic test's to the rifle and could not get it to shoot the 180's, he is no precision guru though (I do know who he is)
the problem will be the barrel twist rate, the 30-06 should have a 1 in 10" twist to shoot up to 220 grain bullets
there may have been a mix up with the barrel used at the factory, some different makers use a 1 in 12" twist for there 308 barrels for up to 170"s
I couldn't find what the Steyr barrels twist rates are :unknown:
but anyway you want to shoot the 180's and it wont so really what do you want to do about it Tassie

I would also like to ad that IMHO you will not get good results shooting a kicker like a 30-06 in a lead sled, very agricultural thinking :wtf:
and that the “general” base projectile weight for the 06 is the 180gn projectile is totally wrong, the 300wm was made to shoot the 180's efficiently
the ballistics of a 30-06 shooting 180 grain projectiles is shocking,
it's something you would use at close range to thump the sh!t out of a big animal hoping to stop it in its tracks

here is part of the history written about the 30-06 from ballistic studies web site showing what it was made to shoot :thumbsup:

"In 1905, Germany adopted a light 154 grain bullet for the 8x57 at an extremely high velocity of 2890fps. The U.S, keen to embrace new technologies, immediately set about upgrading the .30-03 cartridge. A more aerodynamic 150 grain pointed projectile was created and along with this, the .30-03 case was shortened by .07 of an inch (1.8mm) to optimize the new bullet design. This was the birth of the .30 US cartridge of 1906 known today as the .30-06. The Springfield rifle maintained its original designation as the 1903 Springfield. The .30-06 remained the principle military cartridge of the US for 50 years

After the change to the .30 Ball 150 grain bullet, all military 1903 Springfield rifles were recalled, the barrels cut back by one thread turn and were re-chambered for the modified cartridge. Barrel length of the final rifle configuration was 24”. Velocity of the 150 grain .30 Ball was 2700fps, recorded at 78ft (le Boulenge Chronograph) True muzzle velocity would have been 2780fps."

the above is a small history for the millitary rifle, yours is a hunting rifle

it really is your call Tassie, Steyr need to come back with what is a reasonable expectation for the twist rate on your 30-06 rifle
so what range of projectile weights do they expect the rifle to shoot
good luck with it anyway :drinks:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Feb 2019, 10:48 am

marksman wrote:and that the “general” base projectile weight for the 06 is the 180gn projectile is totally wrong, the 300wm was made to shoot the 180's efficiently
the ballistics of a 30-06 shooting 180 grain projectiles is shocking,
it's something you would use at close range to thump the sh!t out of a big animal hoping to stop it in its tracks

:drinks:


I am not sure why you say the ballistics using a 180 grain pill is shocking. You can move this projectile easily at or above 2800 fps which is respectable.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 07 Feb 2019, 11:20 am

marksman wrote:it really isn't doing what you want it to or expected is it Tassie :unknown:

there smith did very basic test's to the rifle and could not get it to shoot the 180's, he is no precision guru though (I do know who he is)
the problem will be the barrel twist rate, the 30-06 should have a 1 in 10" twist to shoot up to 220 grain bullets
there may have been a mix up with the barrel used at the factory, some different makers use a 1 in 12" twist for there 308 barrels for up to 170"s
I couldn't find what the Steyr barrels twist rates are :unknown:
but anyway you want to shoot the 180's and it wont so really what do you want to do about it Tassie

I would also like to ad that IMHO you will not get good results shooting a kicker like a 30-06 in a lead sled, very agricultural thinking :wtf:
and that the “general” base projectile weight for the 06 is the 180gn projectile is totally wrong, the 300wm was made to shoot the 180's efficiently
the ballistics of a 30-06 shooting 180 grain projectiles is shocking,
it's something you would use at close range to thump the sh!t out of a big animal hoping to stop it in its tracks

here is part of the history written about the 30-06 from ballistic studies web site showing what it was made to shoot :thumbsup:

"In 1905, Germany adopted a light 154 grain bullet for the 8x57 at an extremely high velocity of 2890fps. The U.S, keen to embrace new technologies, immediately set about upgrading the .30-03 cartridge. A more aerodynamic 150 grain pointed projectile was created and along with this, the .30-03 case was shortened by .07 of an inch (1.8mm) to optimize the new bullet design. This was the birth of the .30 US cartridge of 1906 known today as the .30-06. The Springfield rifle maintained its original designation as the 1903 Springfield. The .30-06 remained the principle military cartridge of the US for 50 years

After the change to the .30 Ball 150 grain bullet, all military 1903 Springfield rifles were recalled, the barrels cut back by one thread turn and were re-chambered for the modified cartridge. Barrel length of the final rifle configuration was 24”. Velocity of the 150 grain .30 Ball was 2700fps, recorded at 78ft (le Boulenge Chronograph) True muzzle velocity would have been 2780fps."

the above is a small history for the millitary rifle, yours is a hunting rifle

it really is your call Tassie, Steyr need to come back with what is a reasonable expectation for the twist rate on your 30-06 rifle
so what range of projectile weights do they expect the rifle to shoot
good luck with it anyway :drinks:


Appreciate the advice and of course - your right.
As a relatively new shooter, you take advice on face value.
My LGS sold me a wonderful 260 that shoots fantastic - 120’s and 140’s.
When I went in there next to buy - I explained I wanted a light weight carry 06 that would shoot sub Moa with what I deemed to be heavier projectiles. They new I already had steyr and tikka - and they offered the 06 pro hunter as an option, as this would apparently do what I wanted.
Every person I’ve spoken with who owns an 06 says the same thing to me at least, if your not shooting 180’s at least, then you might as well have bought a 308 - because the extra charge is wasted...I don’t know the steadfast truth on this but it looks like an accurate statement from with the books I have.
A 2.5 inch group at 100 yards means I would be limiting any distance hunting with a 30/06 to...well...100 yards for fear of an unethical shot!

To do...? if steyr cannot give me a rifle that shoots as advertised, then I’d like a refund / or fix and I’ll buy a rifle like M18 or tikka that will.

I’ve just heard back from Steyr and I’m quite bamboozled by their response. I’m seeking clarification before I post up the exact details of their letter - but if I understand it correctly, steyr apparently do not test and do NOT wanrrant any accuracy claims on ANY rifles that are under a certain dollar value ($1500) being referred to as a budget rifle. I hope I have this incorrect - if this was true then there are certainly a number of implications and why even take the rifle back for testing...and as you yourself showed me MM - their online videos certainly contradict this...
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Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
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Howa 300 win mag.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Feb 2019, 11:53 am

All is not lost if they give you back your rifle. You can work with your gunsmith to sort out the trigger, bed it, check the condition of the barrel and crown. The barrel may need some lapping or dramatic fire lapping. Then do some load testing with some know performing bullets, I would try Berger Target or Sierra Match Kings.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 07 Feb 2019, 12:54 pm

TassieTiger wrote:So customer service manager has finally got my steyr rifle to their gun smith for testing with some interesting results. This is what the gun smith wrote back to Winchester:


“The Rifle has been fitted with a Meopta scope , bore solvent used to remove fouling and test fired.
100 m using Super X 180 g , 2.5 “ group x 3 shots .
100 m group using Super X 150 g , under 1 “ 3 shots
It’s shooting very well with the 150 g ,
Unfortunately I can’t change how it shoots with heavier pills.”

So the question now is - is the rifle meeting advertised claims?

My argument is that the “general” base projectile weight for the 06 is the 180gn projectile (I have a 260 that groups 140’s 1/2 Moa) so clearly didn’t purchase to shoot 150’s...so if it’s shooting 2.5inxh groups via 3 shots with 180’s - with a lead sled via accredited gun smith - then its a long way away from meeting advertised claims.
Thoughts or advice??

Update - customer service manager has advised he is putting in advice to Steyr direct that rifle is under performing - he said they are usually very fast and good RE any issues. So we shall play the wait game again...


Have you measured the twist rate? Although I would expect a much larger spread than 2.5" if it were the twist rate causing instability.
I tried to make some sense of their website but I can't find any specification of twist rate. I tried Google but couldn't find anybody that had actually measure the twist rate. It's generally listed as 10"-twist.

I've read that people shooting monolithic's step down a level over what they would be using in a jacketed-lead bullet, so a 150gn mono should give you similar terminal performance to a 180gn jacketed bullet? But the 150gn mono is probably just as long as the 180gn anyway, which won't help if it is a twist rate problem. A 10"-twist barrel should stabilise bullets heavier than 180gn without any problems. I agree with what has been said, the .30-06 is optimal for 150gn bullets, but it should still shoot heavier bullets with good accuracy.

I would try some different heavier bullets to see if something does group okay. As far as I can tell the Winchester Super-X looks like a blunt flat-base soft-nose bullet, so it'd already be on the short side for 180gn bullets.

What contour is the barrel, maybe it gets a bit of a whip happening with heavier bullets?
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 07 Feb 2019, 5:12 pm

very disappointing :thumbsdown: good work by the salesman, false advertising and you get a lucky dip rifle
I would still look further into it as you have told the LGS what you wanted and were under the impression that what you were buying was capable
at least now you have a gunsmiths report that says he could not get the 180's to shoot
you only bought the rifle because you wanted to shoot heavier bullets because you already have a 260 that shoots 140's very well

if all else fails you can try to tweak the rifle and reload but it may still be fruitless as it may not shoot 180's to your satisfaction ever :unknown:

what your mates have said about shooting the 180 grain bullets, the 30-06 and the 308 is not really true the 30-06 is a step up in velocity and energy with the same bullet being used but if you really want to shoot the 180's effectively get a 300wm or 300wsm
I would lean more toward the 300wsm because of oal issues with the 300wm being made in long action instead of magnum action
anyway Tassie I hope it all works out for you :drinks:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by grandadbushy » 07 Feb 2019, 6:01 pm

G'day Tassie mate haven't you had some drama with this rifle so here goes mate if it was me I would ask myself ,'' would I be happy with this rifle now after all this
trouble'' ? It's obviously not what you were wanting by not shooting 180gr up, They sold you a rifle that was supposed to do so and you have proof from a GS that it
doesn't ,I can see where you are coming from you don't want a big thumper you want a 30-06 that shoots 180gr up so I would ask the gun shop that sold you the rifle
to exchange it to something more closer to what you want and asked for , if that fails then see if they will trade it on another rifle even a thumper 300 if you wish
even if you have to add a little cash to get another brand then if that fails I would be seeking legal advice and tell them so
If all is correct on what you told them when you purchased the rifle about wanting to shoot heavy projectiles then I feel as though they may have unloaded the rifle onto you Sellers should not make those mistakes and if it was the rifle, then they should do all they can to remedy the issue but they don't seem to want to which leads me to
think of an unload
Mate hope it all ends well for you I do think the Gun shop will come up with something that will benefit both parties although you may have to add a little cash and get another brand of rifle I would just to be on the safe side and i'd get a 1-9 twist if its 30-06
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigrich » 07 Feb 2019, 7:59 pm

sad to hear the results taz . others have already given good advice , i myself lean towards GDB advice and get another rifle, as that rifle in your mind will be tainted from now on . i have a mate with a 308 steyr that is silly accurate, i had a sako 308 that didn't shoot 150's well at all, but would make one hole with 165's . it can be a lucky dip even with a "qaulity" brand . any manufactured product has the potential to be a dud due to human error or just plain dumb luck during the manufactering process . i hope you can get a good result to your satisfaction in the long run taz

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Feb 2019, 3:41 am

All good advice - thank you.

It has almost been something of an experiment to see how the companies involved - respond to a situation like this.

The lgs won’t see any more of my money due to their - complete lack of interest once they had my initial money.
Winchester cust service guy - appears to be caught in the middle and appears to be doing what he can to smooth things over...but - they are the wholesaler so, they by default, are involved.
Steyr - here is the real disappointment.

Given that tikka, Mauser and similar offer accuracy guarantees for the same or even less $$$ - who now would buy a steyr and take the risk knowing, that they will not support their products?
If I don’t hear back soon I’ll post up their full / actual response to me - it’s quite amazing to think a $1500 and under rifle is considered by them to be...well crap really - they do ZERO testing and have ZERO guarantee because in their opinion it’s a budget rifle. It might be a budget rifle - but surely, they’d be compelled to advise consumers that their heavily advertised MOA guarantee either does not apply or is conditional guarantee...Crazy for what I thought was a “premium” company....

I’m currently away with work but when I get back next week, I’ll be lodging a consumer affair complaint re aust consumer guarantee laws - my position being the rifle is not fit for the purpose it was sold and false advertising.
I’ll also be starting a thread entitled STEYR advice and just advise new comers of my findings to help alert prospective new buyers to the risks they may face when buying a budget steyr.
Heck, I may even send Steyrs response to SSAA and see if they might publish a letter to help educate new buyers - I’m sure I’m not the only one who has purchased a rifle that hasn’t performed and then thought...okay...now what?

I’m treating this like a challenge now...let see how we go. Lol.

I’d like to just add in here - a big thanks to everyone who has this far supported me in this process. Whether I succeed in making any in roads is yet to be determined but hopefully, my pathway might help educate / add to other peoples knowledge along the way.
Cheers.
Tikka .260 (custom)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 28’
Sauer 30-06
Howa 300 win mag.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigrich » 08 Feb 2019, 4:42 am

Just be careful about what you say and post these days taz with regards to the legal aspects. I would’ve expected a better attitude from steyr as well. I know a lot of people on this forum will probably be hesitant about buying their products now ......
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Feb 2019, 3:58 pm

My take from this and many other treads is that the firearms industry is no different to any other.

Pump out product fast, forget quality control or the customer. Get the $ ASAP. Worry about fhe customer when it gets serious and they go to consumer affairs.

Welcome to capitalism..
Hunt safe, look after the bush & plug more pests. :thumbsup: Better to load on the mild side. :o The greatest invention in the history of man is beer. :drinks: "Often the written message doesn't convey all of the information"
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 08 Feb 2019, 4:06 pm

TassieTiger wrote:All good advice - thank you.

It has almost been something of an experiment to see how the companies involved - respond to a situation like this.

The lgs won’t see any more of my money due to their - complete lack of interest once they had my initial money.
Winchester cust service guy - appears to be caught in the middle and appears to be doing what he can to smooth things over...but - they are the wholesaler so, they by default, are involved.
Steyr - here is the real disappointment.

Given that tikka, Mauser and similar offer accuracy guarantees for the same or even less $$$ - who now would buy a steyr and take the risk knowing, that they will not support their products?
If I don’t hear back soon I’ll post up their full / actual response to me - it’s quite amazing to think a $1500 and under rifle is considered by them to be...well crap really - they do ZERO testing and have ZERO guarantee because in their opinion it’s a budget rifle. It might be a budget rifle - but surely, they’d be compelled to advise consumers that their heavily advertised MOA guarantee either does not apply or is conditional guarantee...Crazy for what I thought was a “premium” company....

I’m currently away with work but when I get back next week, I’ll be lodging a consumer affair complaint re aust consumer guarantee laws - my position being the rifle is not fit for the purpose it was sold and false advertising.
I’ll also be starting a thread entitled STEYR advice and just advise new comers of my findings to help alert prospective new buyers to the risks they may face when buying a budget steyr.
Heck, I may even send Steyrs response to SSAA and see if they might publish a letter to help educate new buyers - I’m sure I’m not the only one who has purchased a rifle that hasn’t performed and then thought...okay...now what?

I’m treating this like a challenge now...let see how we go. Lol.

I’d like to just add in here - a big thanks to everyone who has this far supported me in this process. Whether I succeed in making any in roads is yet to be determined but hopefully, my pathway might help educate / add to other peoples knowledge along the way.
Cheers.


Well that's crap form from Steyr indeed, I would definitely be onto Aust Consumer Affairs about it as it's not some $$ 2 item it's $1500 so there should be some redress especially considering their MOA Gtee which it clearly doesn't achieve so something had to be done to redress the situation surely?

Good luck :drinks:
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Feb 2019, 9:15 pm

Yes mate, I was going to wait but Winchester are now sending the rifle back with the unresolved complaint so I spoke to a lawyer today.
They are in clear breach of the Aust Consumer Law on various aspects and the lawyer has helped me draft a letter back to Winchester.
They have 3 business days to respond.

Just been re reading STEYR's response after the lawyer pointed something out to me. I dont think the cust service person at winchester understands what he has forwarded on to me - nor the possible ramifications. Here is an ex of what Steyr sent me with some names/detail removed for obvious reasons;

TEXT REMOVED in regards to accuracy claims;
The limits are: 3 rounds in 35mm for all hunting rifles (CL II, SM12,…) and 5 rounds in 25mm for all sporting rifles (SSG’s, PRO VARMINTS,…) with a factory ammunition.
Of course we cannot guarantee perfect accuracy with any factory ammunition – each barrel is different and likes different ammo.. But that is just normal.
TEXT REMOVED
There is no PRO VARMINT in .30-06 – I guess he has one of the Pro Hunters – these are by the way not tested for accuracy – they also don’t come with the warranty card – that is one of the reasons why it can be offered that cheap… (You have to imagine, that we can’t mount a scope on each rifle in the factory and then shoot on 100m with it, taking pictures of the grouping – that costs: time and ammo…)


There are so many issues with their statement above...but we shall now see what 3 days brings and I guess formalized proceedings.
Tas.
Last edited by TassieTiger on 09 Feb 2019, 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tikka .260 (custom)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 28’
Sauer 30-06
Howa 300 win mag.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 09 Feb 2019, 8:13 am

Do they advertise the Pro Hunter with a MOA G'tee? if so WTF is that 35mm Group waffle about? I'm sure you will get your money back mate, I can't see them wanting to waste time and money fighting it if push comes to shove!.

I look forward to hearing how it all goes.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by grandadbushy » 09 Feb 2019, 12:52 pm

Geez Tas it's turned into a proper bush fire mate but you sound as though you are pretty switched on by the way your handling the situation so you'll get it sorted
and i for one will never i mean never buy a '' STEYR '' after reading this post.
Stay the good fight mate and best of luck although i think you already have the case won
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Feb 2019, 1:49 pm

Thanks GB.
I’m not sure how it will turn out but lessons in life are never free. :-)

What amazes me - like really sits me on my bottom - is they steyr comment that they don’t test fire all their rifles as it costs money...that’s a problem in more ways than one. It’s almost a blatant lucky dip and there are bloody well safety concerns!

In reference to accuracy guarantees. According to Consumer laws, it’s very clear;
Products must be of acceptable quality, that is:
safe, lasting, with no faults
look acceptable
do all the things someone would normally expect them to do.

And further states;
Products must also:
match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising
match any demonstration model or sample you asked for
be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing
meet any extra promises made about performance, condition and quality.

So based on the above, this all should be very clear...although I had some tiny reservations about the 150gn v 180gn issue...as could steyr say that the 150’s are that caliber staple...regardless? Would steyr have insisted the rifle was okay if it shot 120’s into a Moa target?

My lawyer called me this morning and said whilst he was doing some data discovery, he was scanning the very latest sporting shooter magazine and found an article referencing the 30/06 - “the .222R is almost identical in profile to the much loved 30-06 in their most common profiles 55gn/180gn...” written by Lionel Swift.

Along with what were my “reasonable expectations” for the rifle, what I told the shop I wanted, what the shop told me / knew about my circumstances/sold me, as well as steyrs advertising claims...they won’t be able to dismiss the 180gn evidence.
It will be interesting...
Tikka .260 (custom)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 28’
Sauer 30-06
Howa 300 win mag.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 09 Feb 2019, 6:11 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Thanks GB.
I’m not sure how it will turn out but lessons in life are never free. :-)

What amazes me - like really sits me on my bottom - is they steyr comment that they don’t test fire all their rifles as it costs money...that’s a problem in more ways than one. It’s almost a blatant lucky dip and there are bloody well safety concerns!


Test-firing would be different to testing for accuracy. Test-firing would be done into a backstop without any sights mounted.
But I would expect any factory to have a bench setup with a scope that they can fix each rifle into for accuracy testing, without having to mount sights on the rifle. They have no need to hit a target, they just want group size and pattern.
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