STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 09 Feb 2019, 6:18 pm

Tassie, what do they claim this particular model of rifle is capable of? is it MOA or something along those lines?
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Feb 2019, 7:50 pm

Just treat it like a Remington there Tassie. Once you replace the barrel and trigger, square up the action and bed it. You will have a good shooting rifle, no lawyers required. Come down to the range with me tomorrow and you can use my $1,000 Tikka to shoot some 1/4 inch groups to help you relax.
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Re: Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 09 Feb 2019, 8:29 pm

TassieTiger wrote:100 yards is about 91 metres from memory - so yes - your correct, I am shooting in excess of the manufactures claims - about 10% longer.

I hear what your saying bladeR - but from what I’ve been told, it’s likely that you’d find yourself with a $600 bill and a returned rifle - with no amendments.
My advice is that the steyr factory would have shot this rifle before leaving factory with high spec premium ammunition and recorded a Moa group. If I return the rifle - The Moa card recorded against this serial no will be pulled, details replicated exactly and as long as those results are within 20% of original - they’ve met their obligations and you’ve now got a large bill. They allow a 20% change - due to possible damage in post/transit (I know right - crazy) also need to Keep in mind - their premium ammunition for an 06 could be from 110gns on upwards - to 230gns and precision weighted, precision loads, temp controlled barrel, etc etc etc.
A Moa claim on a rifle is almost impossible to disprove (unless it’s mentally bent or something).

It’s an interesting situation - again, I need to stress - I am not unhappy with the rifle, I know it will shoot, I need to work out the parameters it likes.

How many people are out there that buy a new gun that has an advertised accuracy rating confirmed by a fancy magazine write up marksman with years of experience- that they then try and emulate and can’t get near...I bet there are thousands...



here is why Tassie does not need proof of steyr moa guarantee scott :drinks:
the seller said there was one
Last edited by marksman on 09 Feb 2019, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 09 Feb 2019, 8:46 pm

from what you have said about buying the rifle and stipulating that you wanted a 30-06 light carry rifle to your friendly lgs that will shoot 180's as you already have a very good 260 that will shoot 140's the product does not fit the description asked for and will not do what you asked for, you now have it on record that a gunsmith cannot get it to do what you bought it for Tassie, so that comes under ACCC "repair, replace,refund" major problem
I'm certain you will get your money back :drinks:

http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consum ... ace-refund
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Feb 2019, 9:02 pm

I think MM posted this up a while back - go to 3min 30 and listen to the blurb...we guarantee steyrs blah blah...we stand behind our firearms 100% blah blah...you will not find a more accurate out of the box rifle against a STEYR...blah blah.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dsoLYo4xG14

MM is also correct re Aust law. The legal point stating, “does the rifle meet the reasonable expectations of the consumer”.

The local gun shop told me that ALL rifles at this price point come with Moa guarantees now, they simply have too, or no one would buy their products because everyone wants a “shooter” and no one is going to risk not competing without an accuracy claim.

Made sense to me at the time.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Bills Shed » 09 Feb 2019, 9:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Thanks GB.
I’m not sure how it will turn out but lessons in life are never free. :-)

What amazes me - like really sits me on my bottom - is they steyr comment that they don’t test fire all their rifles as it costs money...that’s a problem in more ways than one. It’s almost a blatant lucky dip and there are bloody well safety concerns!


Test-firing would be different to testing for accuracy. Test-firing would be done into a backstop without any sights mounted.
But I would expect any factory to have a bench setup with a scope that they can fix each rifle into for accuracy testing, without having to mount sights on the rifle. They have no need to hit a target, they just want group size and pattern.


I would be surprised if they even test for accuracy. If the firearm passes all its function, safety, and gauging tests the firearm is ready to go. Back when I was a gun plumber we would inspect and repair dozens of rifles a day. If we test fired all of them it would take us months to do a armoury. You can assemble a rifle and deam it ready to go without firing it. ( how many gun smiths fire the rifles they repair / build?) You can test fire it without testing for accuracy, and accuracy is a term that is open to interpretation and is only as good as the shooter. It is all in the detail.
If you make enough noise you may get your money back but most of what you have said Tassie is hearsay in relation to what you told your LGS. Maybe their customer service may accomodate your desires and change the rifle but I think you are pushing the Dunny bucket up hill.

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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 09 Feb 2019, 10:01 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I think MM posted this up a while back - go to 3min 30 and listen to the blurb...we guarantee steyrs blah blah...we stand behind our firearms 100% blah blah...you will not find a more accurate out of the box rifle against a STEYR...blah blah.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dsoLYo4xG14

MM is also correct re Aust law. The legal point stating, “does the rifle meet the reasonable expectations of the consumer”.

The local gun shop told me that ALL rifles at this price point come with Moa guarantees now, they simply have too, or no one would buy their products because everyone wants a “shooter” and no one is going to risk not competing without an accuracy claim.

Made sense to me at the time.


I'd save that Video on a stick if you can, they certainly can't wriggle out of it now after all mate clearly states several times that they Gtee MOA or buy it back, so sell it back to em! :D
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bigfellascott » 09 Feb 2019, 10:04 pm

Bills Shed wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Thanks GB.
I’m not sure how it will turn out but lessons in life are never free. :-)

What amazes me - like really sits me on my bottom - is they steyr comment that they don’t test fire all their rifles as it costs money...that’s a problem in more ways than one. It’s almost a blatant lucky dip and there are bloody well safety concerns!


Test-firing would be different to testing for accuracy. Test-firing would be done into a backstop without any sights mounted.
But I would expect any factory to have a bench setup with a scope that they can fix each rifle into for accuracy testing, without having to mount sights on the rifle. They have no need to hit a target, they just want group size and pattern.


I would be surprised if they even test for accuracy. If the firearm passes all its function, safety, and gauging tests the firearm is ready to go. Back when I was a gun plumber we would inspect and repair dozens of rifles a day. If we test fired all of them it would take us months to do a armoury. You can assemble a rifle and deam it ready to go without firing it. ( how many gun smiths fire the rifles they repair / build?) You can test fire it without testing for accuracy, and accuracy is a term that is open to interpretation and is only as good as the shooter. It is all in the detail.
If you make enough noise you may get your money back but most of what you have said Tassie is hearsay in relation to what you told your LGS. Maybe their customer service may accomodate your desires and change the rifle but I think you are pushing the Dunny bucket up hill.

Bill


Clearly you haven't watched the video link Tassie just posted earlier, their rep says they are all g'teed to shoot or they will buy it back, you can't get a more iron clad gtee than that hey. :drinks:
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 09 Feb 2019, 10:53 pm

Bills Shed wrote:I would be surprised if they even test for accuracy. If the firearm passes all its function, safety, and gauging tests the firearm is ready to go. Back when I was a gun plumber we would inspect and repair dozens of rifles a day. If we test fired all of them it would take us months to do a armoury. You can assemble a rifle and deam it ready to go without firing it. ( how many gun smiths fire the rifles they repair / build?) You can test fire it without testing for accuracy, and accuracy is a term that is open to interpretation and is only as good as the shooter. It is all in the detail.
If you make enough noise you may get your money back but most of what you have said Tassie is hearsay in relation to what you told your LGS. Maybe their customer service may accomodate your desires and change the rifle but I think you are pushing the Dunny bucket up hill.

Bill


Assembling a rifle from parts is different from machining one from scratch. I don't imagine anybody is going to put a brand new firearm into the market without test firing it. If it did fail and injure or kill somebody I think they could kiss their business goodbye if they hadn't done basic safety testing.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Bills Shed » 10 Feb 2019, 6:56 am

Yep I watched it. Talk is cheap. It is all in the detail of what is actually in writing. Let's see how it pans out.
As to test firing to ensure it is safe, just means it was serviceable when it left the factory. It proves little. A rifle is not a complex piece of machinery. There are only 2 or 3 close tolerance requirements. Even then we are still talking a .001-.002. This is easy for modern machining. I am not surprised in the least that they do not test fire every rifle.. I am not trying to start a storm of words here just stating that modern production methods means that there are checks along the way so that the final product is ready to go without ,opening the packet, so to speak, to make sure that it is correct.
We all eat food, not every packet of food is opened and sampled to ensure it is safe. Quality control and inline checks ensure it is safe to use.
Again let see how it pans out. Customer relations is very important but expectations and reality can often differ.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Ziad » 10 Feb 2019, 7:42 am

I just wanted to point out a couple things. The video was taken at the shot show in the US. It would be very easy for Winchester Australia to say their rifles are different and thus the guarantee doesn't apply.

I know that that what Howa and OSA say about their rifles. In US all are moa guarentee but here no claims are made esp regarding the cheaper ones (the acp, hcr etc. Are moa guarantee though)

But going back to the main, the gunshop has made a claim and advertised you wrongly, so under ACCC you likely can get your money back as is not fit for purpose.

Goodluck
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Feb 2019, 9:19 am

I wish I could post up the letter my lawyer helped with...maybe later.

The point being missed here by a couple of ppl, is that our very own ACL protects the consumer.
It’s the consumers “reasonable” expectation that is the defining line.

I’ve been through many ACL claims for myself and others - it’s a brilliant price of legislative law that holds companies to account. If you don’t use it - more fool you.

Let’s assume that there is no Moa guarantee, that the shot show video counts for nought, that the local gun shop denies ever saying anything or even knowing me after buying 4 new firearms from them, etc...

The ACL arbitrator will ask the question aligned with the law - Is it unreasonable, that Tassie bought a brand new $1500 rifle in 30/06 caliber, expecting it to shoot 180gn projectiles into or around Moa at 100 yards?

That will be the bottom line question as to whether Winchester has breached acl.
Then evidence discovery will be weighed...is $1500 a budget rifle? What do other $1500 rifles offer in the form of accuracy guarantees? Is the 180gn outside of reasonable expectations? Is there fa risk evidence that the gunsmith did manage to shoot the rifle properly - or is it heresay? How many other complaints might exist? How have steyr handled the situation? How have Winchester responded thus far? Is a repair appropriate? The rifle is sold as a hunting rifle - Is the outcome of 180gns shooting 2.5 inches per 100y, in a caliber capable of long distance shooting, allow for ethical outcomes - is 12.5 inches of variance ethical at 450 yards?

These are the types of questions that the arbitration will ask - always with the overarching question “consumers expectation” in the back ground. The fact steyr have said what they have said will count heavily against them.

Someone has to hold these larger companies accountable from time to time - I know a few ppl have found themselves in a similar situation to me with other rifles but have simply not known how to proceed So their rifle lives as a safe queen and the manufacturer ceo takes another holiday lol.

...if it doesn’t work out - I’ll sell it or rebarrel it or what ever as previously suggested. But in my mind, it’s a $1500 gun that is not performing as expected nor advertised and that’s now proven...so glad it wasn’t my shooting lol.
Given Winchester has advised they were sending rifle back without repair, replace, refund - knowing fully aware that there is an issue, a positive outcome in my favour will now see them liable for my legal fees, application fees, test ammunition costs, etc...
I really wish I could post letter my lawyer helped with lol...

Now - whilst I’m dealing with this one - can someone else please take on Colgate re Their whiter teeth in 7 days claims...By my calc, I should be diverting freaking aeroplanes just by smiling lol
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by Bills Shed » 10 Feb 2019, 9:33 am

You have put a lot of effort into this. I wish you well. Please keep us posted.

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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by marksman » 10 Feb 2019, 11:05 am

the guy in the Utube vid is Scott O'brien CEO of Steyr Arms, he's not just an American salesman :lol:

but even without Steyr CEO Scott O'bien's Utube Steyr rifle guarantee the consumer protection guarantee will work out because it doesn’t do what you asked for, it does not meet the specific purpose you asked for so it is unfit for purpose, a major problem
repair, replace or refund

good on you Tassie for not backing down on this as so many would have, which is the way the system is setup so that people will give up :drinks:
I'm sure the lgs would have bought the rifle back off you for less than you paid to sell you another :shock:
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 10 Feb 2019, 8:40 pm

marksman wrote:the guy in the Utube vid is Scott O'brien CEO of Steyr Arms, he's not just an American salesman :lol:

but even without Steyr CEO Scott O'bien's Utube Steyr rifle guarantee the consumer protection guarantee will work out because it doesn’t do what you asked for, it does not meet the specific purpose you asked for so it is unfit for purpose, a major problem
repair, replace or refund

good on you Tassie for not backing down on this as so many would have, which is the way the system is setup so that people will give up :drinks:
I'm sure the lgs would have bought the rifle back off you for less than you paid to sell you another :shock:


I'd be sending him an email as well, including a link to this thread, if I were him and seeing what we're seeing here, I'd be on the phone to Winchester Australia ASAP.

I look at it this way.
I paid $1500 for a rifle that isn't suitable, and they're giving me the run around.
I could cut it up with an angle grinder and I'm out $1500 - that's worst case. It's cost me a lot more than that just crashing a motorcycle at times, and I can't blame anybody but myself when that happens.
I could keep it and sink a lot more time and money into making it perform as I require of it, cost to me, a lot, and I might have a really nice rifle at the end of it, but one that is still only worth the price of a secondhand stock rifle.
I could keep it and use it for the tasks it is suitable for, and buy myself another rifle, cost to me is I have more rifles ;-)
I could sell it on to somebody that will love it, and buy myself a different rifle, cost to me maybe a few hundred bucks, and the problem no longer exists.
Or I could engage a lawyer and spend countless hours and dollars pursuing something that may never be resolved satisfactorily, hours and dollars that I would much rather spend on shooting. The lawyer will make more out of this than anybody else will, probably more than the rifle cost, but certainly more than either the dealer or the importer made on the sale.

I have one life, and I already burned up a bunch of hours trying to get this rifle to do what I want of it. Do I want to burn up a bunch more of my life dealing with people that have zero regard for me as a customer anyway? Would it a better use of my hours educating others to avoid dealing with these companies instead?

I understand that the company wants consumers like me, that don't think their company is worth five-cents of my time or effort to push them to give proper service and product So I applaud anybody putting their effort into keeping companies on their toes.
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Feb 2019, 9:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:
marksman wrote:the guy in the Utube vid is Scott O'brien CEO of Steyr Arms, he's not just an American salesman :lol:

but even without Steyr CEO Scott O'bien's Utube Steyr rifle guarantee the consumer protection guarantee will work out because it doesn’t do what you asked for, it does not meet the specific purpose you asked for so it is unfit for purpose, a major problem
repair, replace or refund

good on you Tassie for not backing down on this as so many would have, which is the way the system is setup so that people will give up :drinks:
I'm sure the lgs would have bought the rifle back off you for less than you paid to sell you another :shock:


I'd be sending him an email as well, including a link to this thread, if I were him and seeing what we're seeing here, I'd be on the phone to Winchester Australia ASAP.

I look at it this way.
I paid $1500 for a rifle that isn't suitable, and they're giving me the run around.
I could cut it up with an angle grinder and I'm out $1500 - that's worst case. It's cost me a lot more than that just crashing a motorcycle at times, and I can't blame anybody but myself when that happens.
I could keep it and sink a lot more time and money into making it perform as I require of it, cost to me, a lot, and I might have a really nice rifle at the end of it, but one that is still only worth the price of a secondhand stock rifle.
I could keep it and use it for the tasks it is suitable for, and buy myself another rifle, cost to me is I have more rifles ;-)
I could sell it on to somebody that will love it, and buy myself a different rifle, cost to me maybe a few hundred bucks, and the problem no longer exists.
Or I could engage a lawyer and spend countless hours and dollars pursuing something that may never be resolved satisfactorily, hours and dollars that I would much rather spend on shooting. The lawyer will make more out of this than anybody else will, probably more than the rifle cost, but certainly more than either the dealer or the importer made on the sale.

I have one life, and I already burned up a bunch of hours trying to get this rifle to do what I want of it. Do I want to burn up a bunch more of my life dealing with people that have zero regard for me as a customer anyway? Would it a better use of my hours educating others to avoid dealing with these companies instead?

I understand that the company wants consumers like me, that don't think their company is worth five-cents of my time or effort to push them to give proper service and product So I applaud anybody putting their effort into keeping companies on their toes.


The lawyer is making very little - when he’s related by marriage :-) The hours I spend on it are to me - most definitely educational (just look at what the more knowledgeable have contributed within this thread) and it’s very much worthy of my time because, at least in my humble opinion - big companies taking advantage of ppl is why we are in the poo with banks, in the poo with telcos, in the poo with big pharma, why we have insane speeding laws, etc etc etc etc - rightly / wrongly, I see it as a strike against what our fore fathers fought for.

By not seeing this through - more and more ppl get screwed over and the company makes more and more outrageous claims about their products and still more ppl get screwed over and so on...
Yep, for sure - I could take a few hundred dollar hit as you suggest, but why should the next bloke not get what he thinks he’s getting either ? or I could turn it to a safe queen and enjoy taking it up the ass....but, I don’t really like it. Hey - each to their own, I don’t judge. :-)

As it stands at present, I’m still shooting all manner of rifles and having fun - IF I had the 06 back I’d be wasting a lot of time / money trying to get it to do something I now know it’s ynlikely to ever do. This thread alone, with 2500 views - will have no doubt put a question mark over some ppl buying a steyr and a HUGE question mark over steyrs after sales service.
If you google steyr accuracy 30/06 - this threadblissfully shows up. :-)

As for your thoughts re this potentially not ever being resolved satisfactorily - I’m obviously confident that won’t be the case - $5 bet with ya ? :-)
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by bladeracer » 10 Feb 2019, 10:06 pm

TassieTiger wrote:The lawyer is making very little - when he’s related by marriage :-) The hours I spend on it are to me - most definitely educational (just look at what the more knowledgeable have contributed within this thread) and it’s very much worthy of my time because, at least in my humble opinion - big companies taking advantage of ppl is why we are in the poo with banks, in the poo with telcos, in the poo with big pharma, why we have insane speeding laws, etc etc etc etc - rightly / wrongly, I see it as a strike against what our fore fathers fought for.

By not seeing this through - more and more ppl get screwed over and the company makes more and more outrageous claims about their products and still more ppl get screwed over and so on...
Yep, for sure - I could take a few hundred dollar hit as you suggest, but why should the next bloke not get what he thinks he’s getting either ? or I could turn it to a safe queen and enjoy taking it up the ass....but, I don’t really like it. Hey - each to their own, I don’t judge. :-)

As it stands at present, I’m still shooting all manner of rifles and having fun - IF I had the 06 back I’d be wasting a lot of time / money trying to get it to do something I now know it’s ynlikely to ever do. This thread alone, with 2500 views - will have no doubt put a question mark over some ppl buying a steyr and a HUGE question mark over steyrs after sales service.
If you google steyr accuracy 30/06 - this threadblissfully shows up. :-)

As for your thoughts re this potentially not ever being resolved satisfactorily - I’m obviously confident that won’t be the case - $5 bet with ya ? :-)


Agreed, businesses these days know they make money regardless of a chunk of their customers being less than impressed with their product/service. I'm not suggesting for one second that you shouldn't pursue this, I'm merely saying that for me, life is too short to waste it on some people/businesses that will never respect me, or any customer, anyway.

I'm sure lots of people own these rifles, are perfectly happy shooting 150gn bullets, and would never even know their rifle has this "defect". I wouldn't personally be devastated with having to do some testing to hopefully get a rifle shooting well, but I would certainly agree that it definitely should not be required with any modern rifle - virtually anything should be capable of MoA at 100m straight out of the box these days. The time I spend trying to develop cast loads for milsurps can be frustrating, but enlightening and educational at the same time.

This thread comes up in second place in my Google search of the string "steyr accuracy 30-06", but as I already have Enoughgun in my browser history I wouldn't expect anything else. You need to run the search on a non-shooter's computer to get a real idea of its worth.

I agree that you should have no problem winning this case, but the legal system is so full of loopholes that nothing can ever be guaranteed. Like you, I'm certainly confident enough that I would not take your $5 bet against it :-)

What do you see as best case scenario? A replacement Steyr rifle that groups MoA with 180gn factory ammo? Or a refund of your $1500?
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Re: STEYR Confused with lack of accuracy 30-06

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Feb 2019, 10:22 pm

Sorry mate, I misinterpreted some of what you’d written. I certainly didn’t want to go down this path either.

If I had not have been specific in my requirements for wanting to shoot 180’s/200’s - and if I didn’t already have a tack driver 260 shooting 140’s, then Id guess 150’s would be okay from an 06...the steyr was sold to me as beingcapable of performing...

That being said - I really haven’t seen anything in regards to these shorter claims either...did the 150’s really shoot Moa? I’ve asked but not yet received proof. Just a very terse note from their gunsmith.

A successful outcome for me? Just for steyr to deliver exactly what I paid for and if they cannot do that - a refund and I’ll buy something else that can produce Moa capability in an 06 with 180gn plus projectiles...if they want to sort me with a varmint rifle for my troubles - I won’t be saying know to that either ;-)

Ps - if I had the ceos email, I’d certainly let him know. I did search it up but couldn’t find it.
Ps2 - I am contemplating writing into a couple of the shooting magazines and presenting a heavily edited story of events to see if they might publish...
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