Reloading cases for a mosin nagant

[Dirtdart89]

I'm new to the reloading scene, can someone help me out with tips to make my mosin nagant more accurate and recommend powders, projectiles etc?

[yoshie]

What bullets are you using?

[Dirtdart89]

None yet, the nagant is my first rifle and I'm not too keen on using the corrosive stuff as I'd like to keep it as mint as possible. And I will be taking it on some long trips where it might go a few days without proper cleaning.

[Chronos]

"so you've decided to reload"

LOL, that's probably how lot's of those reloading books and vids start, you're first step may be too buy a good reloading manual and start goggleing

your first steps will be to start collecting components,

cases-you can buy new brass however most reloaders start out with brass cases they have collected from their own factory loads
bullets-this can depend on what kind of shooting you want to do, target, hunting etc then choose an appropriate weight and construction
primers and powder-this is where your reloading manual comes in, primers are easy, finding the best powder takes experience, follow advice that others can offer

now you need some hardware, some basic measuring gear, a press, reloading dies, powder handling gear, thrower, scales etc

then how accurate your rifle shoots comes down to you. experimentation (within safe limits) is the key to finding a good load for your rifle

be safe and have fun

Chronos

PS: heres a link to a page i found when i first started reloading

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/09/how-to- ... mmunition/

[Dirtdart89]

Cheers, looks like a pretty informative page, suppose I have a fair bit of research into prices, brands and parts ahead of me.

Then I gotta figure out what I want to expand my collection. Haha but I suppose that would be an entirely different thread.

[5Tom]

I got some good information for you as I own a 1943 91/30 and reload.

There are a number of things that can be done to improve the accuracy of a Mosin Nagant
When I first bought my Mosin, I got some surplus Bulgerian ammo and some Highland commercial ammo. Accuracy at 50m was non-existent and I honestly thought I had wasted my money. It was approximately the size of a large dinner plate at 50m. After doing a lot of reading and research into bettering the accuracy of this rifle, my first step was to check the bore condition (which was excellent in my case) and slug it.

The reason mosin nagant owners should slug the barrel is because the general bore size of these rifles vary between .3105 to .315. Shooting projectiles that don't fit the bore size can lead to inaccuracy. Get yourself a lead sinker that is slightly oversize to your bore and from the muzzle end, tap it down the bore. You'll need to get some wooden dowel to help push it through the entire length of the barrel and out of the action.
Once you recover the lead slug, measure the outside diameter and that size will be the projectile diameter you'll need to shoot. My 91/30 slugged a .314 bore and I have shot .312 and .311 projectiles with better accuracy.

Secondly - Check your muzzle. My muzzle was well worn from a cleaning rod and I needed to remove about 1/2 inch of the muzzle until I got good rifling the entire length with a clean crown. I sent my Mosin to a gunsmith for this fix. Since I was keeping the front sights, I was lucky I didn't need to remove more than I needed.

Take the rifle to the range again and test accuracy for any improvement using commercial rounds. For me, I had little gain, but any gain is a good gain.

My next step was looking at Free-Floating the barrel since the mosin has a very long, thin barrel, which is more susceptible to barrel harmonics. I took the action out of the stock and began to sand back the barrel channel until I could slide a business card all the way to the receiver. Most people will use paper for this test but I wanted something a little thicker for my own preference.

During my reseach in accurizing the Mosin Nagant, the book called "Sport Shooting" by A.A Jurijev was commonly brought up in other forums because there are very helpful tips and modifications that help trigger pull and bedding. The illistrations in the book (although all text is Russian) show roughly where the important nodes are barrel bedding tips.

Another simple tip for accuracy is to add cork. Visit this website http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu63.htm
I have done this and noticed increased accuracy yet again. For a 50m target, my groups went from a dinner plate to about 3-5 inch groups. Although at this stage, I should note I had already been handloading custom rounds with a Hornady 174gr Round Nose pill with 2209 powder.

After more range testing, I had found a recipe of 47gr of AR2209 and Hornady 147gr Spitzer .312 pills showing much improvement and groups shrank down again to 2inch at 50m. Accuracy out to 100m was about 3 to 5inch on average.

Sticking with this load as a default load for all testing and hunting, I decided to start looking at my trigger because the length of pull and weight of pull was a little too much for my liking. A greater weight and trigger travel can pull the Point of Aim to the side just as your pulling the trigger, which also results in inaccuracy. Taking the advice from the "Sports Shooting" book from A.A. Jurijev, I took apart my trigger assembly and began to add a very small bend in the sear spring. This lowers the sear to release the firing pin for a more crisp release. I also added a trigger return spring to remove the slack in the trigger.

*The above modification is highly dangerous and must take every precaution to check your firearm for absolute safety. Modifying your trigger mechanism to adjust your sear engagement can cause the firing pin to be released under a small bump. Please get a gunsmith to do this for you if you are not competent to do this yourself, otherwise leave the trigger alone*

In case you hadn't noticed yet, I wanted to keep my mosin in the most original way possible so the modifications I've done were kept to the WW2 era.

All this work to get my rifle shooting its best was all coming together and now my rifle has a lighter trigger pull, was able to place groups at 100m 3-4inchs. Increasingly getting better with any small changes to handloads.

My case preparation involved keeping the same case manufactures in the same string of shots, I only resize the necks using the Hornady 7.62x54r neck sizer die with the .310 (I think) neck sizer ball, Cases were trimmed to correct length, all cases deburred, each round was seated at exactly 3.000 inch for Cartridge overall Length and CCI LR200 primers.

Mosin nagant rifles love long projectiles. Since I was using a 147gr Spitzer, I thought I would try the Sierra 180gr Pro-Hunters projectiles and at my last range session, proved to be a real winner. I tested five different powder charges ranging from 50.5gr to 52.5gr of AR2209 powder. I was amazed that now my 91/30 with plain iron sights can shoot sub MOA if I do my part.

This is one of the targets at 100m. There is two groups in this picture. The first group was a group of 4 shots that is very tightly clustered together next to the number 5. The 4th shot went though an existing hole. The 5 shot vertical string is a little weird but I think that was me due to just finishing lunch with a greasy grip and a little exited.

[5Tom]

That was one of 5 targets, each target had similar results with the accuracy increasing and decreasing depending on the charge. I still have to go and do further testing to confirm that my target charge is between 51gr and 51.5gr of AR2209.

I had also took a shot at the 300m gong and the 500m gong and hitting them first shot. I did have to aim a 6 o'clock hold during testing and hitting the gongs. I am just absolutely amazed at what these 70 year old rifles can do.

As far as surplus ammo goes, it will be ok to shoot as long as they are cleaned after the shooting session. If you are able to boil hot water while your out on your hunting trip, pour a full pot of boiling water down the receiver. The receiver and barrel should get very, very hot and will desolve any salts left behind from the surplus ammo. Just wipe the barrel down to dry afterwards.

For cases, buy some Seller & Belot or highland ammo for the cases. I have a mix of S&B, PPU and nny and they have had a number of reloads through them without any trouble.

If you need any more help or info, let me know.

[Dirtdart89]

That's a fair whack of info to digest, cheers I'll check the link in the morning. Might have to wait a little while before I have the time to do any modifications though. I'll get back to you if I need any other pointers. Cheers again.

[GPostal]

Hey 5Tom - Great info there.
Ive just received my 91/30 ex Laurence GS import.
I will be hand loading once the dies arrive-
have you tried any of the lighter rounds for accuracy ?
Have you tested accuracy by firing the rifle with the bayonet attached ?
cheers
Jason

[Dirtdart89]

Accuracy with the bayonet always diminishes with every rifle. Can't be helped unless you zero it with the bayonet attached. I recently spoke to a guy that said the sights are designed for 149 grain pills that the Russians used at the time. I haven't looked into whether that is true or not but I figure the ballistics of a round might come into effect there.

[5Tom]

I haven't tested nor shot the Nagant with the bayo attached so I can't tell you my experience for that, however the Point of Impact does shift as I heard most rifles were sighted with the bayo on. Others suggest otherwise but I have seen videos on youtube where they say the POI is closer to POA with the bayo attached.

I've only shot the Hornady 147gr .312 pill and the Sierra 180gr .311 pill. A lot of my time shooting the Nagant was using the 147gr pills because after some research, I was convinced that was the correct weight for my rifle (given time and model of manufacture) but accuracy was about 2.5 inches at 100 at best. I've only shot the Sierra 180's once with great results (as pictured above) so I would try shooting them first and see how your rifle likes it. Remember to slug that bore to be sure of the diameter of bullet you need.

I believe the main differences between the 147gr and 174+gr rounds is that the Nagants, Carbines, PU Nagants and the LMG all shared the same cartridge so the 147's (light ball) were more dedicated for the LMG's and possibly carbines, while the 174+ (heavy ball) were for the rifles. Either heavy ball or light ball could be used in any firearm.

My rifle shoots quite high so expect to use the 6 o'clock hold unless you adjust the front sight post by raising it. With my 180gr load, I have shot the 300m and 500m gongs at belmont with the correct 300m and 500m rear sight setting. I will eventually purchase an adjustable front sight post, although it won't be true to the rifle.

[GPostal]

interesting...........
I slugged my bore - came out at .311 which is same as bullet diam as the Sierra Match Kings I use for my Lithgow .303 (174g)
Ill start with those and work up to heavier bullets.
ill be using ppu brass and federal primers.
I was planning to head up to the Seaham range on Saturday to try some factory Highland 180g for my first shoot.
I had read that some 91/30 owners said their rifles shot tighter groups with bayonets attached and thought it was to do with barrel harmonics /nodes etc, like using a barrel tuner.

[5Tom]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to match the bullet diameter exactly to the bore, as I've always understood that it's safer to go .001 or .002 under size to allow the bullet to slide a little more and perhaps reduce internal barrel pressure and heat (friction). Maybe it can contribute more towards barrel wear, I'm not sure.

I personally would use .310 pills, but maybe someone a little more cluey might chime in on that topic.

[defau]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to match the bullet diameter exactly to the bore, as I've always understood that it's safer to go .001 or .002 under size to allow the bullet to slide a little more and perhaps reduce internal barrel pressure and heat (friction). Maybe it can contribute more towards barrel wear, I'm not sure.

Don't quote me on this - definitely not stating it as a fact. But I was under the impression bullets where typically .001 larger than the barrel or thereabouts?

For a firm fit for burning powder or whatever.

e.g. when reloading for your .223 aren't the bullets packaged as .224?

I measured some .243 pills with calipers ages ago (just mucking about) and found them to be .001 over too?

If I'm wrong tell me...

[5Tom]

For copper jacketed bullets, the bullet diameter must be smaller than the groove diameter. The bore diameter is the distance between the lands of the rifling. The copper jacket engages the distance between the lands and grooves, which may only be .002 to .004 inch wide.

I know with cast bullets, they are typically oversize.

Go to http://www.7.62x54r.net and have a look at some of the illustrations about bore, groove and bullet diameter. Very good site for Mosins.

[Arth]

When I first started shooting I tried to drop/place a bullet down the muzzle of my first rifle. I assumed the bullet would be the "right" size and should basically slide down the barrel.

I was wrong obviously

A bit of a freak out at the time to learn I'd been firing this thing with such snug bullets. To a novice it almost seemed like it shouldn't move through the barrel.

My paranoia was half expecting it to go *boom* the next time I fired it

[Dirtdart89]

Hahaha my brother made the same mistake when we were kids haha he has been scared of guns ever since. But that just meant more fun for me.

[Swarm]

Amazing what a little pressure will do, hey Arth/Dirt

[Dirtdart89]

Haha yeah science never ceases to amaze!

[Dirtdart89]

So I have been doing work on my mosin... Never ceases to amaze how much cosmoline is in these things. And I'm thinking of redoing the varnish as it has been pretty banged up since 39 haha. My questions here are what varnish does everyone think suits them best? As I can't really decide... A deep red would probably be my choice... And since I don't want to remove any of the wear and tear (read character) how would I go about removing the little varnish that remains? Sanding being my obvious first guess. Are there other options?

[5Tom]

I haven't looked into the varnish, my 91/30 has wear where my ear-muffs rub on the stock and other little dings and knocks. I'd personally go with the deep red as well or as close to the Era possible.

You might need to use sandpaper by hand if you want to keep the markings on the stock, I'd guess that using some paint stripper or a sanding machine might eat too much of the wood away. Guess only.