Procedure for brand new brass

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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 13 Jan 2019, 8:23 pm

SCJ...

I have Norma in 7-08 that i have shelved for the moment....however i removed a reasonable amount from those flasholes

But i run 2x100 batches (well 4x50 actislly) of norma for the extend-a-rabbit as i now like to calll it--the 204....which i removed a good amount of brass from also...

I also heard nosler brass is fully prepped norma brass scj.

I actually found very little difference in the brass i removed from the 204 norma cases as compared with remington brass in 22-250... :unknown:

Hey can i ask you & marksman--this mandrel caper--how does it differ from neck sizing with the normal redding neck die, & why do that instead of neck sizing...???

I have a mandrel in .22 & 7mm that i purchased for meck turning, but ive shelved all the gear until i get myself a custom chamber thats worth the effort of turning.

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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 3:35 pm

Stix the mandrels I use are 21st century and K&M, the K&M I use with the neck turner, they are the exact size of the projectile to smooth and round out the necks, as has been said some new cases come a bit tighter than needed causing bent/crooked necks when the projectile is seated and the expander buttons can vary greatly in size's so you may get the same problem with neck tension being tighter than needed
its also a very good idea to inside champfer the necks for smooth bullet seating
IMHO if a bullet seats smoothly it will exit smoothly, it's what I think is important anyway :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 14 Jan 2019, 3:54 pm

So marksman, does that mean for neck sizing you use the mandrel instead...?

Sorry if im asking annoying & stupid questions or missing somthing, im just trying to ascertain when you would use a mandrel vs neck die & why...?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 5:44 pm

The reason I use the mandrel for new cases is because they have too much tension and you are trying to reduce it. The mandrel also smooths out any small dents. The new cases are very grabby so I would use some graphite powder to help lube the bullet. I would not use a mandrel after this but neck size with bushing dies or collet dies. I try not to use a die with an expander button. The buttons seem to pull the neck crocked and you end up with runout.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 6:26 pm

Stix wrote:So marksman, does that mean for neck sizing you use the mandrel instead...?

Sorry if im asking annoying & stupid questions or missing somthing, im just trying to ascertain when you would use a mandrel vs neck die & why...?


on the new cases yes I would prefer to use the mandrel but if you dont have a mandrel I would neck size with a die that has an expander button so you round off the necks, push deformities to the outside of the neck and make them all consistent
if you have more neck tension than needed you can bend the neck when seating a projectile, you see this when checking that your cases have no runout on a runout gauge before seating the bullet then after seating you may see runout caused by seating the bullet with more tension than is needed but also as SCJ429 said if using a die with an expander button you can pull the neck crooked so its better to use a bushing die or collet die to neck size, but if you only have the expander button die do not use the lock ring to lock the die in place, that is why these dies are called wobble dies
if you use a runout gauge you can check how much runout you get if any at all, the purpose of checking is to find where your necks are getting the runout
I hope this explains it for you :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 7:25 pm

If you were using a die with an expander button, would you full length size the brass or run it through just enough for the button to travel through the neck?
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 14 Jan 2019, 9:48 pm

Thanks guys...
Yes that explains it...

So, i do have problems with neck tension...big problems & i know it.

The reason i neck size new brass is for the same reasons you guys say, but i haven't thought about using the mandrel i have, from now on i will (i have the K&M ones).

Ive been told not to leave the lock ring loose on the neck die, but,... i do it anyway, because it seems obvious to me that it will bend the neck...so im glad you guys have told me im doing the right thing there... :thumbsup:

I know i have excessive neck tension on my 22 expander ball that was in my neck die (Redding 22-250)--its so bad i used to absolutely destroy projectiles if i had to pull them (using the grip-n-pull) to the point they cant be used for even plinking trailboss loads again... :crazy:
So i swapped it out for the one in the FL die, & although its not as bad, i still get the feeling there is excessive tension on some necks, however i can pull the bullets easy enough without great deformation now ive changed them out (i basically only use that one shaft & ball now between the Neck & FL die, although i hardly ever FL size).
.
The thing i dont get, is that ive measured the expander balls & they are both the same, & i lube all necks with graphite so i dont know why i get such bad tension/& different tension in the necks between the different balls. :unknown:

Keep in mind, i dont have a run-out gauge for measuring such, nor do i have a ball micrometer to measure neck thickness (i have the gear for turning but dont neck turn) so i dont bother measuring neck tension as such--but i can feel it when i seat--i dont care what anyone says, i can feel the different tension clear as day, & sometimes (rarely) but sometimes i can feel it while neck sizing--although that is hard, because as you say & the thing i dont like about these neck dies is they are so grabby...sometimes i even visually check a case for decent lube & the ball still grabs bad...ggrrrr.. :unknown: .!!

I set the neck die so that i can see the ring of graphite sit right at the shoulder--so with a graphite lubed neck, once run through the die it pushes the graphite down the outside--i set the dies so this ring of graphite is basically at the junction of neck & shoulder...i figure that covers all bases-a shallow seated & a deep seated bullet, while not (hopefully :unknown: ) not deforming the shoulder enough to create obscure tension in the adjacent neck. :unknown:

So Is this right...? :unknown:

Or better still, should i just buy a different type of die...?
My mind & understanding tells me bushing dies would be the go, but are they worth it for factory chambers...? i figured not, hence why ive shelved & not used all the neck turning gear...

Should i try the lee collet dies ?(i have no idea how they work but have gathered from posts on here they may the cheap groovy thing to use... :unknown: )

Anyway, thanks agian for the explanation guys...it is appreciated.. :drinks: .sorry if ive waffled on a bit, im just trying to give as much info as i can...

(im so frustrated lately, ive 2x 22-250's i cant get to shoot...if i had service when i was away shooting last week i would have sold my brand new Sako 22-250 varmint for a grand--tensioned & checked everything up, no wind, first 2 shots same hole... :clap: :thumbsup: took it straight out in a paddock & blew one bunny in half at 250 yds (i executed a good shot but thats a big miss :unknown: ) then missed the next 5 completely... :wtf: ...next morning tried it on paper again & it was spraying 3 inches or more at 150 yds FFS... :unknown: i wanted to kill & disfigure this inanimate object... :evil: )
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2019, 10:58 pm

Lots of interesting things you note in your post, you say you can feel extra neck tension when you seat the bullet, that is great, most people don't notice this. Put that case aside, it will ruin you group. The biggest contributor to poor accuracy in loading is in consistant neck tension. When it comes to the amount, the least you can get away with is the best option. Obviously with hunting rounds you need a bit more because they get knocked around a little more.

As Marksman said the reason to measure runout through the the resizing process is to identify what is causing it. They come out of your chamber straight. That way you can change or eliminate this process that caused the runout. Collet dies work well because they are easy on the brass and you can adjust the neck tension. You need to be gentle with these dies and there are some good instructions online regarding their use.

Try just putting just a bit of tension onto a 22/250 case without resizing it. I reloaded some cases for a 22/250 12 times only resizing 1/3 of the neck. It shot really well but started to get hard to chamber. I used a small body die to push the shoulder back and then continued to only neck size until I had loose primer pockets. Not a single split neck and only trimmed the brass once over around 20 firings. Stick with it, the mucking around is half the fun when you stop pulling you hair out. I nearly threw my chrono away on the weekend after firing 20 shots from a big bore and only recording three of them. Sore shoulder and not much data to show for it.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 14 Jan 2019, 11:17 pm

if your not neck turning I would recommend the lee collet die
but if you start turning necks it has to be a bushing die

honestly Stix I would go the collet die, I hope this may help :drinks:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... llet-dies/
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 11:48 am

If one already has a standard FL die, is it worth buying just the collet die on its own, or in a set...?
It seems they have 2 sets available...
A 2 die set with collet & seater...
& a 4 die set with collet, seater, FL & crimp die...
Is it also worth getting the crimp die to experiment with...?
Or just collet die alone...?

(They done have collet die alone in stock--damit...!!)
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by bigfellascott » 18 Jan 2019, 11:55 am

Blr243 wrote:Hi. If purchasing unfired brand new brass is it a good idea to run it through a sizing die first or can I just prime Charge and seat ?


Stuff and shoot! :thumbsup:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by marksman » 18 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

Stix wrote:If one already has a standard FL die, is it worth buying just the collet die on its own, or in a set...?
It seems they have 2 sets available...
A 2 die set with collet & seater...
& a 4 die set with collet, seater, FL & crimp die...
Is it also worth getting the crimp die to experiment with...?
Or just collet die alone...?

(They done have collet die alone in stock--damit...!!)


I usually buy the 4 die set but if I already had a fld I would think about going the other way
also I do believe in using the crimp die (a light crimp) for cases that I use the collet die, especially if there is a big jump to the lands for the projectile
when crimping I do it so you can only just see the crimp
I also believe that when not neck turning to use a lee collet die, a wilson seater and a light crimp for very consistent reloads, for runout under 1 thou
it's what I have found works anyway and I've bought a heap of sh!t over the years to try and get the most out of my reloads
it will always still come down to (famous last words) bullets, barrels and bumnuts :drinks:
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 3:22 pm

marksman wrote:
Stix wrote:If one already has a standard FL die, is it worth buying just the collet die on its own, or in a set...?
It seems they have 2 sets available...
A 2 die set with collet & seater...
& a 4 die set with collet, seater, FL & crimp die...
Is it also worth getting the crimp die to experiment with...?
Or just collet die alone...?

(They done have collet die alone in stock--damit...!!)


I usually buy the 4 die set but if I already had a fld I would think about going the other way
also I do believe in using the crimp die (a light crimp) for cases that I use the collet die, especially if there is a big jump to the lands for the projectile
when crimping I do it so you can only just see the crimp
I also believe that when not neck turning to use a lee collet die, a wilson seater and a light crimp for very consistent reloads, for runout under 1 thou
it's what I have found works anyway and I've bought a heap of sh!t over the years to try and get the most out of my reloads
it will always still come down to (famous last words) bullets, barrels and bumnuts :drinks:


Thanks marksman...
Now to decide... $100 for the 4 die set & get it in a week...
Or $65 for the collet & crimp die & wait a month for them to come in the country...

I already have redding 3 die set & Forster micro seater...
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 18 Jan 2019, 6:00 pm

You don't need anything apart from the collet die, you have no need for the others. Use the Forster die for seating. Measure a loaded round and use the collet die to size the neck two thou smaller. If you have not neck turned your brass you may find some cases do not have enough tension to hold the pill.

You can use these cases to set up the neck turning lathe, give them the slightest touch and then turn the rest so they are all the same thickness.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 7:18 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You don't need anything apart from the collet die, you have no need for the others. Use the Forster die for seating. Measure a loaded round and use the collet die to size the neck two thou smaller. If you have not neck turned your brass you may find some cases do not have enough tension to hold the pill.

You can use these cases to set up the neck turning lathe, give them the slightest touch and then turn the rest so they are all the same thickness.


Thanks SCJ.
With regard to some of these cases that may not have enough tension to hold the bullet...
Is this literal...? (For example will i be able to pull the bullet with fingers...?)
Or will it just not have enough tension to give any decent pressure...?
(I guess ill find out when i get it).

I am tempted however to get the crimp die...ive never used one before, & at just $25 its a cheap price to pay to experiment with once i get the collet die sorted & working correctly.

(Suppose i should check online to see if i can get them cheaper... :unknown: )
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by bigfellascott » 18 Jan 2019, 7:57 pm

Stix wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:You don't need anything apart from the collet die, you have no need for the others. Use the Forster die for seating. Measure a loaded round and use the collet die to size the neck two thou smaller. If you have not neck turned your brass you may find some cases do not have enough tension to hold the pill.

You can use these cases to set up the neck turning lathe, give them the slightest touch and then turn the rest so they are all the same thickness.


Thanks SCJ.
With regard to some of these cases that may not have enough tension to hold the bullet...
Is this literal...? (For example will i be able to pull the bullet with fingers...?)
Or will it just not have enough tension to give any decent pressure...?
(I guess ill find out when i get it).

I am tempted however to get the crimp die...ive never used one before, & at just $25 its a cheap price to pay to experiment with once i get the collet die sorted & working correctly.

(Suppose i should check online to see if i can get them cheaper... :unknown: )


Literal - sometimes there’s not enough tension to hold the pill in position resulting in the pill being easy to bump back into the case.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by SCJ429 » 18 Jan 2019, 8:14 pm

That is correct, the pill will fall into the case because the case is thinner than the others. You need to neck turn to the thinnest case. Then adjust the collect die to put two thou less than a loaded now neck turned case.
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Re: Procedure for brand new brass

Post by NAHMINT II » 20 Jan 2019, 5:49 pm

LAPUA and NORMA as stated above is without a doubt, #1 brass... us poor old buggers on pension shoot what we can afford.....I debur flash hole,campher inside and outside of neck after full length resizing.....then check o.a.l........we have critters that bite back here on the island....wolves,mountain lion and big bears....
we can hunt bear in spring and fall,but lots of us hunt wolves and the big cats for 10 months a year..... ammo feeding properly is not something one wants to worry about,. unless I am hunting with someone,i leave the semi automatic rifles at home....again,no worrying about FAILURE to feed.
cheers glenno / NAHMINT II
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