Annoying...

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Annoying...

Post by Rod_outbak » 18 Jan 2019, 9:05 pm

NEVER assume when reloading!

[I thought I'd learned that by now.....sigh.]

I discovered today, that Hornady .224 55gn Z-Max projectiles DEFINITELY AREN'T the same projectile as a 55gn V-Max!

The Z-Max has a cannelure, for one thing.

But more importantly:-

When I measure them using a bullet comparator (Forster brand that locks onto my calipers), I find the Z-Max projectiles are just about exactly 0.010" longer than the V-Max!
I checked 5 Z-Max's and 4 V-Max's, and the 2 groups are pretty much exactly 0.010" different in length.

So, they might fly the same, they might perform very similar, but if you are running them through the same dies, dont expect them to be inter-changeable.

There are an awful lot of online forums who assure each other they are the same bullet(just a different coloured tip as a marketing gimmick!).
They are very similar, but they arent the same.

I think it's time to measure up exact seating depths for some of these loads I'm doing, and stop relying on others...

Cheers,

Rod.
---------------------
Sharing the extreme love with cats in Outback QLD
Rod_outbak
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 541
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by bigrich » 18 Jan 2019, 9:53 pm

how different are they in construction and terminal performance rod ? just wondering about the difference and use of them in the paddock

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
bigrich
Major
Major
 
Posts: 1712
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 10:12 pm

Good tip Rod... :thumbsup:
I also learned the hard way once...

My education came from load testing 7mm Nos 120 BT's...
When i loaded the second test ito confirm the results of the first test, i transitioned from one box to another...
I didnt know what was wrong when the second test was all over the place... :unknown: ...the results of the first test were really solid so i was dumfounded...

So i did the test again, & when seating them i noticed i had to change the seater die but just figured i must have changed it to put it back in the box or something... :unknown:

So the results of the 3rd test were solid this time also, except at different powder charges.... :unknown:

Thankfully i kept 2 untouched projectiles from the first box & decided only then that i should check them as everything else seemed ok...

One batch was .015" shorter than the other, yet .025" longer in the ogive...

So i had effectively shot 3 load tests with 2 different bullets at 4 different seating depths... :crazy:

I now measure 10 bullets from EVERY SINGLE BOX now regardless even if same batch number before seating, & i seat them so the ogive measurement is same... :thumbsup:
:drinks:
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1969
South Australia

Re: Annoying...

Post by Rod_outbak » 18 Jan 2019, 10:20 pm

bigrich,

As far as knock-down, ballistics etc, I'd guess they would be close enough in the paddock to not matter.
I certainly havent seen them perform any differently; both seem to pokk furry animals with extreme prejudice..

It's that using the same seating depth for both, might lead you to loading up rounds that wont chamber; as I found out today...

A couple of forums showed me both projectiles cut in half. The Z-max projectile looks to be a bit thicker in the wall, but hard to suggest by how much.

NOTE: this is the .224cal 55gn Z-Max & 55gn V-Max. The 165gn (.308) Z-Max is (I believe) an A-Max projectile re-tipped, and from what I can see, they look to be the same.
(But I havent YET measured them properly to check; either!)
---------------------
Sharing the extreme love with cats in Outback QLD
Rod_outbak
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 541
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by Stix » 18 Jan 2019, 10:33 pm

bigrich wrote:how different are they in construction and terminal performance rod ? just wondering about the difference and use of them in the paddock

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


Het Rich & Rod...im not answering for Rod here...but the 20 cal 32gr Zmax i use in the 204 differ DRAMATICALLY in performance between batches.

1st batch was perfect for foxes--every single fox the chest cavity was turned to jelly at all ranges & i only ever had ONE fox take ONE step before falling over--that was a 250 yd front on chest shot--..all others fell immediately. (spotlighting out to 250yds)...

The second batch, unless i hit the leading leg before the chest, i get exit wounds...so much so that ive had the little 32 gr pill completely blow the shoulder off a fox on exit at 260 yds (pretty sure i posted that one somewhere)
They still kill, the majority of foxes now take a step or 2 before going down, & i see their head lift up for up to 5 seconds before expiring....this never happened with first batch.

Every cat & fox ive clean hit the chest of with the 2nd & 3rd batch (the same batch number) show exit wounds on the fur & leak blood everywhere & all over boots when skinning out....no matter the range.

I dont know a great deal about bullet construction, but i figured these results would be from a thicker jacket, but an old school F class shooter & avid hunter tells me its the copper base that is much thicker... ( :unknown: )

Ive also had different dimensional data from 22 cal 50gr Zmax, but unable to tell the difference in terminal performance of them in the paddock cos they just blow big holes in everything up to fox size which is all ive ever shot with them...
:drinks:
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1969
South Australia

Re: Annoying...

Post by bigpete » 19 Jan 2019, 7:41 am

I thought they were for shooting zombies anyway.....
bigpete
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 1225
South Australia

Re: Annoying...

Post by Rod_outbak » 19 Jan 2019, 8:03 am

Stix,

My annoyance is that people were asking Hornady at the time about what the .224 Z-Max pills were, and Hornady were telling them that the Z-Max was simply a V-Max with a different coloured tip.

Thats obviously a load of codswallop; the 2 projectiles couldnt have come from the same forming die, and the construction is different.

The 55gn Z-Max pills work really well, and given they still seem to be available in 500-round boxes at ridiculously cheap prices, I'm happy to keep using them until the whole Zombie plague is over...
Just freaking irritating that Hornady have sold millions of these projectiles, and yet dont seem to be giving their consumers the right info.

bigpete; I have a big zombie infestation, and at ~$135 per 500 projectiles, I'm happy to label ANYTHING a freaking zombie...
---------------------
Sharing the extreme love with cats in Outback QLD
Rod_outbak
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 541
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by Blr243 » 19 Jan 2019, 12:42 pm

Good post. A reminder to us all to be cautious And pay attention to detail
Blr243
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 130
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jan 2019, 12:58 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:
bigpete; I have a big zombie infestation, and at ~$135 per 500 projectiles, I'm happy to label ANYTHING a freaking zombie...


$135??? They must have gone up. I was paying $99 per 500. I have quite a few boxes left, might measure some and report back.
SCJ429
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 815
New South Wales

Re: Annoying...

Post by marksman » 19 Jan 2019, 1:20 pm

thats a real bast@rd Rod
I use the 55gr zmax myself but haven't tried the vmax
I have used vmax 17 cal 20gr and the zmax equivalent is the same going by oal and not resetting the seating die :unknown:
User avatar
marksman
Major
Major
 
Posts: 1677
Victoria

Re: Annoying...

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jan 2019, 1:20 pm

I measure Vmax 55 grain at 0.808 to 0.810 and ZMax at 0.812 to 0.817. Could it be that the ZMax is a solution for Vmax seconds which are too long for Vmax. You add a cannulur and a green tip and price them to sell. Any plastic tipped bullet with only five thou variation should shoot OK, I have been very happy with them priced at less than 20 cents per bullet.
SCJ429
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 815
New South Wales

Re: Annoying...

Post by Jäger » 19 Jan 2019, 1:24 pm

Rod_outbak wrote:Stix,

My annoyance is that people were asking Hornady at the time about what the .224 Z-Max pills were, and Hornady were telling them that the Z-Max was simply a V-Max with a different coloured tip.
Thats obviously a load of codswallop; the 2 projectiles couldnt have come from the same forming die, and the construction is different.



I looked for information about this years ago myself. My recollection may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading on a couple of forums that the Z-Max and Vmax were different, but that the Z-Max and A-Max were the same, bar the different coloured tip.
User avatar
Jäger
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 77
-

Re: Annoying...

Post by marksman » 19 Jan 2019, 6:08 pm

User avatar
marksman
Major
Major
 
Posts: 1677
Victoria

Re: Annoying...

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Jan 2019, 6:45 pm

Well researched clip, thanks for the link Marksman.

I wonder if the cannulur lengthens the jacket when it is pressed in, I assume so.
SCJ429
Second Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
 
Posts: 815
New South Wales

Re: Annoying...

Post by Stix » 19 Jan 2019, 9:44 pm

marksman wrote:look at 4:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYznd88KJ-Y :unknown:


:D Well that was a breath of fresh air to watch, compared to the average punter on youtube dribbling out many "umm's" and "ahrrrs" in between babbling a heap of non-sensical rubbish... :clap: (like i do... :lol: )

As SCJ said, thanks for posting that marksman... :thumbsup:
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1969
South Australia

Re: Annoying...

Post by Jäger » 20 Jan 2019, 4:52 am

marksman wrote:look at 4:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYznd88KJ-Y :unknown:


Interesting.
I think the answer may be that 'it depends' and that the Z-Max could be Vmax or Amax.

It's likely dependent on which projectile you're talking about.
I'm guessing Hornady would, where they could, use existing production runs of existing projectiles and just replace the tip colour.

I'm my case with the 30cal 168gr Z-Max I have, the line they'd choose to make them is the 168gr A-Max.

For other projectiles or calibers, it may be the VMax's.
User avatar
Jäger
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 77
-

Re: Annoying...

Post by Rod_outbak » 20 Jan 2019, 6:55 am

I MIGHT have solved part of the mystery!

Hornady make TWO flavours of 55gn V-Max; one WITH a cannelure, and one WITHOUT!

Cant see how I missed that when looking at the Hornady site yesterday...

Off to the gunroom to see if I have any of the cannelured V-Max pills to measure.

55Gn V-Max WITHOUT Cannelure (100 Box) - 22271
55Gn V-Max Without Cannelure (250 Box) - 22716
55Gn V-Max WITH Cannelure (100 Box) - 22272


I sat down last night, and measured 10 of the Z-Max 55gn projectiles, and then measured 10 of the non-cannelured V-max pills of the same weight.
[And they do all weigh exactly the same on the scales - 55.2gns]
Measured the lengths using a Forster bullet comparator locked onto my calipers; zeroed the calipers before each set.
Definitely seeing a 0.010" difference in length between the Z-Max, and these smooth V-Max's.
I've now compared these projectiles 3 times, and I keep coming up with a 0.010" difference consistently between them.

I'll see if I can find a box of the cannelured V-Max's in my projectile store to compare against.

Another thought, is given it would be ~10 years since I bought most of my V-Max projectiles in this caliber, I wonder if Hornady have tweaked the V-Max's since I bought mine (which might explain why SCJ429 is seeing less of a difference??).
---------------------
Sharing the extreme love with cats in Outback QLD
Rod_outbak
Staff Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 541
Queensland

Re: Annoying...

Post by Blr243 » 20 Jan 2019, 8:19 am

I think when we see proj that is made by the same company / same weight /same diameter but only the colour has changed it’s easy for us to think that if it’s only a colour change so they should be the same But with further examination we see that’s not the case. I’ll bet my dog reloaders all over the planet are making the same mistake
Blr243
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 130
Queensland


Back to top
 
Return to Reloading ammunition