20 Cal Roo legal Bullets...(40's)...what are you using...?

[Stix]

Im keen to move on up to 40 gr bullets for the 204...

The 32gr Zmax im using are starting to piss me off with exit wounds that leave holes in furs i want to keep & get my left boot covered in blood when skinning out, & they are not roo legal either (im pretty sure 204 is min legal cal for Roos on destruction permit but require 40's).

So im about to run out of a batch of powder & thought a new bullet might be the go with the powder change.

Im also hoping they'll be a little better in the wind than the 32's which seem to go awal when granny sneezes...


So what are you fellow 204 luv lusting folk (or other 20 cal users) using in the heavier end of bullets...?...The cheaper end the better of course cos im a poor stooge...
Im keen to hear from anyone who has experience with these little bullets....whether being a 204 user or not...on all aspects including how they work on fur like cats & foxes with regard to how frangible/exit wounds etc., & maybe even velocities you drive them at if you know.


Also, as a side note...whilst id imagine no ranger or copper would pull my projectiles & weigh them, do 39 gr bullets class as 40's for roos...? Surely they do...! !!
(i dont shoot roos as a rule, however i am listed on a few permits so if i come across them i like to do the right thing... )

[Bruiser64]

I use 40 grain Hornady Vmaxs in my 204. You are spot on, 40 grain pills in 204 are the minimum that are allowed for roo shooting. I have no experience using the 32 grainers, so can’t offer a comment there. I can confirm the 40 grain pills are absolutely devastating when head shooting Roos. The Roos will just drop on the spot if I do my part.

I don’t think the 40 grainers will help your exit wound issue though. The make a pretty substantial exit wound on the foxes I have shot. As far as cost is concerned, I paid $100 delivered for a box of 250 in the last couple of weeks. So they are a bit dearer than the 32 grain Zmaxs . I am using ADI Benchmark . I don’t have a chronograph so I don’t know what the velocity is. The load I am using is very effective in my view.

[deye243]

...

[deye243]

Im keen to move on up to 40 gr bullets for the 204...

The 32gr Zmax im using are starting to piss me off with exit wounds that leave holes in furs i want to keep & get my left boot covered in blood when skinning out, & they are not roo legal either (im pretty sure 204 is min legal cal for Roos on destruction permit but require 40's).

So im about to run out of a batch of powder & thought a new bullet might be the go with the powder change.

Im also hoping they'll be a little better in the wind than the 32's which seem to go awal when granny sneezes...


So what are you fellow 204 luv lusting folk (or other 20 cal users) using in the heavier end of bullets...?...The cheaper end the better of course cos im a poor stooge...
Im keen to hear from anyone who has experience with these little bullets....whether being a 204 user or not...on all aspects including how they work on fur like cats & foxes with regard to how frangible/exit wounds etc., & maybe even velocities you drive them at if you know.


Also, as a side note...whilst id imagine no ranger or copper would pull my projectiles & weigh them, do 39 gr bullets class as 40's for roos...? Surely they do...! !!
(i dont shoot roos as a rule, however i am listed on a few permits so if i come across them i like to do the right thing... )

Actually I removed my comment for obveus reasons

[Stix]

I use 40 grain Hornady Vmaxs in my 204. You are spot on, 40 grain pills in 204 are the minimum that are allowed for roo shooting. I have no experience using the 32 grainers, so can’t offer a comment there. I can confirm the 40 grain pills are absolutely devastating when head shooting Roos. The Roos will just drop on the spot if I do my part.

I don’t think the 40 grainers will help your exit wound issue though. The make a pretty substantial exit wound on the foxes I have shot. As far as cost is concerned, I paid $100 delivered for a box of 250 in the last couple of weeks. So they are a bit dearer than the 32 grain Zmaxs . I am using ADI Benchmark . I don’t have a chronograph so I don’t know what the velocity is. The load I am using is very effective in my view.

Thanks Bruiser...

And which Benchmark powder are you using mate...?

[Stix]

Actually I removed my comment for obveus reasons

...errrr...

...nope...

...the obveus-ality escapes me...

You'll have to spell it out for me...

[SCJ429]

I use 39 grain Blitz Kings, you need to head shoot things as they are very damaging. Also used the Vmax which are also excellent. 40 grain projectiles are flat shooting and Buck the wind very well.

[bladeracer]

Will depend on twist rate, some rifles won't shoot the 40gn poly-tips, but like the 39gn HP due to them being shorter.
I'd order a sample pack of 40gn VMax's from ProjectileWarehouse and try them out. If they stabilise then they're a great bullet.
But I think the only way you'll stop pelt damage is reduced velocity, the velocity makes the .204 explosive with any bullet.
If you're spotlighting you'll probably want the velocity though.

[bigfellascott]

Try some 26gn Varmint grenades from barnes, they might be better if you want fur that's not badly damaged (not sure if I've tried any on foxes yet (I generally just use the 39gn sierras.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/varmint-grenade/

[Bruiser64]

I use 40 grain Hornady Vmaxs in my 204. You are spot on, 40 grain pills in 204 are the minimum that are allowed for roo shooting. I have no experience using the 32 grainers, so can’t offer a comment there. I can confirm the 40 grain pills are absolutely devastating when head shooting Roos. The Roos will just drop on the spot if I do my part.

I don’t think the 40 grainers will help your exit wound issue though. The make a pretty substantial exit wound on the foxes I have shot. As far as cost is concerned, I paid $100 delivered for a box of 250 in the last couple of weeks. So they are a bit dearer than the 32 grain Zmaxs . I am using ADI Benchmark . I don’t have a chronograph so I don’t know what the velocity is. The load I am using is very effective in my view.

Thanks Bruiser...

And which Benchmark powder are you using mate...?

Sorry, I forgot to say it is Benchmark 2. Looking at the ADI chart it seemed to be provide a good Balance between case pressure and velocity. It would be handy to know the velocity, but not possible at present. Getting a chronograph is on my “things to buy” list. But it won’t happen for a while.

[bladeracer]

Try some 26gn Varmint grenades from barnes, they might be better if you want fur that's not badly damaged (not sure if I've tried any on foxes yet (I generally just use the 39gn sierras.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/varmint-grenade/

I like the 24gn NTX, but that doesn't help him when he wants to use a 40gn bullet

[SCJ429]

Speer make a 39 grain TNT, I would like to give them a go. They are also very frangable and will knock foxes around.

[bladeracer]

Speer make a 39 grain TNT, I would like to give them a go. They are also very frangable and will knock foxes around.

The TNT and Blitzking 39's both shoot well for me.

[Stix]

I use 39 grain Blitz Kings, you need to head shoot things as they are very damaging. Also used the Vmax which are also excellent. 40 grain projectiles are flat shooting and Buck the wind very well.

Thats good to know...thanks SCJ...Im hoping they'll do me justice in my poor wind reading ability out beyond 250 yds--that little 32 doesnt seem to go where i want it to if its a little blustery...

Will depend on twist rate, some rifles won't shoot the 40gn poly-tips, but like the 39gn HP due to them being shorter.
I'd order a sample pack of 40gn VMax's from ProjectileWarehouse and try them out. If they stabilise then they're a great bullet.
But I think the only way you'll stop pelt damage is reduced velocity, the velocity makes the .204 explosive with any bullet.
If you're spotlighting you'll probably want the velocity though.

I actually have a box of Hdy Vmax 40's i got when i got the rifle--ill do a test with them for sure, but still wanted to hear what y'all use...

As for reducing damage by reducing velocity--my load is pretty mild already--its only 28gr of 08 pushing at (from memory) 3650-ish...dont want to go lower than that for my main load.

Ive mentioned before, but the first batch of 32 Zmax's i used were great--not one exit wound on a fox or cat that was hit at center of chest mass from any direction--& the entire chest cavity was a jellified blood clot with absolutely NO visial signs of individusl organs ...


The next 2 boxes i have do this with same load...
A cat i dropped last Mon night...
100yds sitting front on--pretty easy shot (although my heart was going like the clappers as i couldnt believe sat for me...!!) & i may have pulled the shot ever so slightly right of centre going by exit wounds, although the entry hole is pretty much centre line.
(Apologies for the gore)

Front on chest entry

2019-02-02 14.32.05.jpg (352.76 KiB) Viewed 5879 times

Here you can see all the exit wounds that pepper the pelt...this didnt happen with the last batch which must have fragmented into much smaller bits...

Multiple exit wounds

2019-02-02 14.32.36.jpg (410.78 KiB) Viewed 5879 times

Less velocity they will pencil through, as they do on bunnies beyond 250 yds...not sure i like that.
& yes spotlighting i definately want the velocity.

So ill try the 40 Vmax & might try the Speer 39's too.
But i might also try those Barnes jobbies you suggest Bigfella...

With any luck a 40 will do the job for all, but if not with any luck ill have 2 diff bullets/loads that only have a slight difference in vertical poi & trajectory, & slip a 40 in for long afternoon bunny sniping & the occasional skippo.

Maybe i was spoilt with the first batch of Zmax's, & now i expect too much... ...dunno...im new to these fast flat inciy beincy bullets...

Thanks guys...ill see how they all go...its all time for me, hopefully i find better solution before MarchApril.

[bladeracer]

Less velocity they will pencil through, as they do on bunnies beyond 250 yds...not sure i like that.
& yes spotlighting i definately want the velocity.

My 2400fps 32gn ZMax loads still explode on foxes. The bullets are designed to function down to 1600fps impact velocity.

[Stix]

Less velocity they will pencil through, as they do on bunnies beyond 250 yds...not sure i like that.
& yes spotlighting i definately want the velocity.

My 2400fps 32gn ZMax loads still explode on foxes. The bullets are designed to function down to 1600fps impact velocity.

Are they exiting the foxes...?
And do you know what sort of drop you get at 250 yds...?

I havnt tried my trailboss load on fur as its not as accurate a load--seems to basically shoot sub inch with most powder charges...i need better for what & how i shoot.

[bladeracer]

Less velocity they will pencil through, as they do on bunnies beyond 250 yds...not sure i like that.
& yes spotlighting i definately want the velocity.

My 2400fps 32gn ZMax loads still explode on foxes. The bullets are designed to function down to 1600fps impact velocity.

Are they exiting the foxes...?
And do you know what sort of drop you get at 250 yds...?

I haven't tried my trailboss load on fur as its not as accurate a load--seems to basically shoot sub inch with most powder charges...i need better for what & how i shoot.

It's not a 250yd hunting load, but a 200yd zero would put it about 90mm high at 110 and 150mm low at 250. 200yds would be okay, but I would increase the velocity to maybe 2600fps to ensure expansion at 250yds. It's certainly accurate enough for foxes and rabbits to 200m. Are you saying that your full-power 32gn loads are not expanding on rabbits at 250yds? With TB loads I shot a fox at about 40m into the chest as he walked toward me and opened his belly from neck to nutsack. Another I shot in the spine as he sat facing away from me at about 70m and pretty much opened him up the same way. I think the damage is hydraulic rather than mechanical.

The bullets tear the foxes up so I'm guessing the fragments are probably leaving the body, although they're probably not large and not going very far or very fast at that point. I don't spotlight so I can work with a trajectory, but most of my shots are well under 200m.

[Stix]

Less velocity they will pencil through, as they do on bunnies beyond 250 yds...not sure i like that.
& yes spotlighting i definately want the velocity.

My 2400fps 32gn ZMax loads still explode on foxes. The bullets are designed to function down to 1600fps impact velocity.

Are they exiting the foxes...?
And do you know what sort of drop you get at 250 yds...?

I haven't tried my trailboss load on fur as its not as accurate a load--seems to basically shoot sub inch with most powder charges...i need better for what & how i shoot.

It's not a 250yd hunting load, but a 200yd zero would put it about 90mm high at 110 and 150mm low at 250. 200yds would be okay, but I would increase the velocity to maybe 2600fps to ensure expansion at 250yds. It's certainly accurate enough for foxes and rabbits to 200m. Are you saying that your full-power 32gn loads are not expanding on rabbits at 250yds? With TB loads I shot a fox at about 40m into the chest as he walked toward me and opened his belly from neck to nutsack. Another I shot in the spine as he sat facing away from me at about 70m and pretty much opened him up the same way. I think the damage is hydraulic rather than mechanical.

The bullets tear the foxes up so I'm guessing the fragments are probably leaving the body, although they're probably not large and not going very far or very fast at that point. I don't spotlight so I can work with a trajectory, but most of my shots are well under 200m.

I wouldnt try my reduced load at 250--its only an inch group so not accurate enough even if i could work with the rainbow effect...mind you im aiming to hit heads of rabbits so i dont want to blow noses off.

Firstly I shouldnt suggest my full load is full power...i had another node up around 3800-3900fps but figured the 3600fps is enough & it seemed slightly more accurate on paper, & had better chrono numbers of not even in the teens for ES & single figure SD.

But to your question, my load seems to be pencilling through bunnies at 250....
My PB of 351 yds pencilled thru hi in the neck & it bled out.
Not sure if you remember me posting this, but it was a two'fer, just under 250yds...
The pic is taken from the direction of the shot. It looked to me the bullet partially opened going through the neck of first & penciled through the neck of the second.

One shot (A smidge under) 250 yds

2018-11-27 21.38.19.jpg (468.11 KiB) Viewed 5805 times

To compare, i also had a similar shot at 100 yds which took the top of the first bunnies head off & the fragments shotgunned the one behind which kicked itself in circles & down the hole before i got to nut him... ( )

So they may be expanding at 250, but they are not fragmenting into many bits at the range.

At 190 yds they still fully fragment & leave a flap of skin for the head.

My guess is that if yours are ripping foxes open either front or back on, & from the carbie all the way to exhaust that they are not fragmenting--rather opening up & ripping a big hole through.

What batch number are yours Blade...?

[bigfellascott]

Maybe some 35gn Bergers might be worth a try?

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/product ... rmint.html

[marksman]

the olden day fox shooters used to slow the projectile down to stop the blow outs
but if you are head shooting with a solid projectile it shouldn't matter

[bladeracer]

I wouldnt try my reduced load at 250--its only an inch group so not accurate enough even if i could work with the rainbow effect...mind you im aiming to hit heads of rabbits so i dont want to blow noses off.

Firstly I shouldnt suggest my full load is full power...i had another node up around 3800-3900fps but figured the 3600fps is enough & it seemed slightly more accurate on paper, & had better chrono numbers of not even in the teens for ES & single figure SD.

But to your question, my load seems to be pencilling through bunnies at 250....
My PB of 351 yds pencilled thru hi in the neck & it bled out.
Not sure if you remember me posting this, but it was a two'fer, just under 250yds...
The pic is taken from the direction of the shot. It looked to me the bullet partially opened going through the neck of first & penciled through the neck of the second.

2018-11-27 21.38.19.jpg

To compare, i also had a similar shot at 100 yds which took the top of the first bunnies head off & the fragments shotgunned the one behind which kicked itself in circles & down the hole before i got to nut him... ( )

So they may be expanding at 250, but they are not fragmenting into many bits at the range.

At 190 yds they still fully fragment & leave a flap of skin for the head.

My guess is that if yours are ripping foxes open either front or back on, & from the carbie all the way to exhaust that they are not fragmenting--rather opening up & ripping a big hole through.

What batch number are yours Blade...?

I would still call a 3600fps 32gn load "full power" rather than a reduced load. I would think even a nose hit at 2500fps should ensure a clean kill. Maybe the second rabbit was only hit by a fragment? I assume you didn't recover the bullet? I still have one of those pelts in my freezer, the one I hit in the chest front-on. Their skins are not being peppered with shrapnel, just bursting open along the belly seam

No idea about batch numbers, when I get bullets they go into my rack of plastic storage boxes for tidy stacking. I keep all my boxes though so I could dig through them for the ZMax boxes if you want. Mine are from probably three or four boxes bought over a few years so not from a single batch.

We're finally seeing enough rabbits back here that I have been thinking of taking some for a feed. I was going to use the .22LR as the range is only about 80m max, but I'll try with the 2400fps .204 ZMax loads and see how they fare. I'm shooting down into a valley from up high so I should also be able to recover the bullets. I just need to wait until the neighbour doesn't have his horses on this side of his property. I find horses to be totally neurotic so I avoid shooting anywhere near them.

[bladeracer]

the olden day fox shooters used to slow the projectile down to stop the blow outs
but if you are head shooting with a solid projectile it shouldn't matter

I've chest-shot rabbits with 139gn FMJ 6.5x55mm and they fell over dead on the spot with a neat hole through them. Bit like me being speared with a telegraph pole I think.

[Stix]

the olden day fox shooters used to slow the projectile down to stop the blow outs
but if you are head shooting with a solid projectile it shouldn't matter

Well i wont be head shooting with solids...im nowhere near good enough for that...!!
If every fox sat within 220yds no problem... but they dont.

[Stix]

I wouldnt try my reduced load at 250--its only an inch group so not accurate enough even if i could work with the rainbow effect...mind you im aiming to hit heads of rabbits so i dont want to blow noses off.

Firstly I shouldnt suggest my full load is full power...i had another node up around 3800-3900fps but figured the 3600fps is enough & it seemed slightly more accurate on paper, & had better chrono numbers of not even in the teens for ES & single figure SD.

But to your question, my load seems to be pencilling through bunnies at 250....
My PB of 351 yds pencilled thru hi in the neck & it bled out.
Not sure if you remember me posting this, but it was a two'fer, just under 250yds...
The pic is taken from the direction of the shot. It looked to me the bullet partially opened going through the neck of first & penciled through the neck of the second.

2018-11-27 21.38.19.jpg

To compare, i also had a similar shot at 100 yds which took the top of the first bunnies head off & the fragments shotgunned the one behind which kicked itself in circles & down the hole before i got to nut him... ( )

So they may be expanding at 250, but they are not fragmenting into many bits at the range.

At 190 yds they still fully fragment & leave a flap of skin for the head.

My guess is that if yours are ripping foxes open either front or back on, & from the carbie all the way to exhaust that they are not fragmenting--rather opening up & ripping a big hole through.

What batch number are yours Blade...?

I would still call a 3600fps 32gn load "full power" rather than a reduced load. Yes i do actually...one or 2 people have told me its going way too slow though...
I would think even a nose hit at 2500fps should ensure a clean kill.my experience is if you hit them through the central part of the sinus area with a full power load they drop...but i literally mean shoot off a jaw or nose--as in clip them--they will die, eventually...not something im gonna try with my load at 200...
Maybe the second rabbit was only hit by a fragment? I assume you mean the 250 yd 2 for 1 shot...?,Maybe, yes, but...when that bullet hits a bunny the bunny within 200 the bunny dissolves--if the bullet fully fragmented the first one would not have had a head attached--it would have been 10 metres away--instead it had what id call high power .22lr shot damage to the neck, so my guess is the bullet didnt fragment--but maybe it did partially
I assume you didn't recover the bullet? Nope--the shot was in the very last throws of daylight, i was shooting at a blurry silhouette so by the time i got out to the bunny it was dark...i know where i shot it though--the bullet would have landed in a sand bank if anyone is keen on a scientific dig...
The property i get my bunnies on is quite large, so it may take me a good 30 mins to collect the bunnies i shoot at distance & drop the guts then another 10 mins to move on to the next patch, then another 20 mins to wait for them to come out again...so as interesting as it would be to recover bullets, i dont have time--ill educate myself on bullet expansion based on the carcass damage...
I still have one of those pelts in my freezer, the one I hit in the chest front-on. Their skins are not being peppered with shrapnel, just bursting open along the belly seamI could well be wrong Blade, but my experience with them tells me that has not fragmented, atleast not fully...my guess is the bullet in your fox has expanded & dragged a ragged hole through it....but only my guess mate--clearly im no expert, hence why im here asking what im asking

No idea about batch numbers, when I get bullets they go into my rack of plastic storage boxes for tidy stacking. I keep all my boxes though so I could dig through them for the ZMax boxes if you want.Nope...not worth it...if you did have the 2 batch numbers i have (which is highly likely) i was going to suggest you load a few & keep them for foxes/cats & see the difference for yourself...& maybe even swap some for the older batch... Mine are from probably three or four boxes bought over a few years so not from a single batch.

We're finally seeing enough rabbits back here that I have been thinking of taking some for a feed. I was going to use the .22LR as the range is only about 80m max, but I'll try with the 2400fps .204 ZMax loads and see how they fare. I rekon they will be pretty effective at that range...last weekend for the the first time, i managed to pop a few with a 22-250 using the 50 Zmax burning Trailboss..I never thought id reduce the load of the 22-250, but it was a bloody hoot shooting them --those Hornet owners must have the best time busting bunnies I so want one...!! .I havnt got a velocity to tell you for the 22-250 Trailboss loads, but the closest shots were aonly a mere 80 yds, & the furthest 120 odd yds, & even the 120 yd ones obviously had severly disfigured heads & stilll gave an audible "pop" that i could hear in a 7-10 mph cross wind from 4.30 with ear muffs on shooting down an incline...so 80 yds with that little 32 will do more damage i imagine I'm shooting down into a valley from up high so I should also be able to recover the bullets.Given what i said above, i doubt youll recover much if anything of those bullets...unless you can push the range out more... but id be keen to see if you did...!! I just need to wait until the neighbour doesn't have his horses on this side of his property. I find horses to be totally neurotic so I avoid shooting anywhere near them.Yes agreed--they can be unpredictable flighty monsters sometimes...Mate if you want to see neurotic animals, go & watch a flock of Marino's who have never seen Emu's, when there is a flock of hungry & thirsty Emus in their paddock... i have a video that is as funny as it is disturbing what those stupid Emu's get up to...!!!

Keen to hear about & hopefully see your bunny busting results Blade...

[bladeracer]

Yes agreed--they can be unpredictable flighty monsters sometimes...Mate if you want to see neurotic animals, go & watch a flock of Marino's who have never seen Emu's, when there is a flock of hungry & thirsty Emus in their paddock... i have a video that is as funny as it is disturbing what those stupid Emu's get up to...!!! [/color]

Keen to hear about & hopefully see your bunny busting results Blade... [/quote]

Yes, nobody wants to cripple any animal if it can possibly be avoided.

If I can shoot some around 50-60 yards with the 2400fps load, the terminal velocity would be similar to your 3600fps load at 300 yards. It would probably be more useful if I could video the impact, but I'm not set up for that. Having shot foxes at point-blank range with full-power .204, is why I prefer a reduced load for close work. Like you, I do find it great fun shooting reduced loads

With full-power .204 loads I rarely recover anything more than the ballistic tip, but the reduced loads will usually leave some jacket fragments.

Our cows came from another region and apparently had never seen 'roos. We had them here for a few months before we moved them to the other block...where there are a lot of 'roos. They were only there a few hours before we got a call that they'd jumped the fence and were now in a neighbour's yard! It seems a mob of 'roos came through and the silly girls freaked out