Does seating a projectile change brass?

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Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 18 Apr 2019, 7:42 pm

This is weird and a little baffling.

Originally had issues chambering re loads so amended the full length die and made it deeper. The rifle clearly has very tight tolerances.

So - resized the brass and test chambered, no issues.
Then prime, powder and seat bullet - won’t chamber...
Pull bullet, powder - brass won’t chamber.
Run brass through FL die again - and it chambers...
Does seating a bullet change the neck?? Any other ideas here??
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by bladeracer » 18 Apr 2019, 8:03 pm

TassieTiger wrote:This is weird and a little baffling.

Originally had issues chambering re loads so amended the full length die and made it deeper. The rifle clearly has very tight tolerances.

So - resized the brass and test chambered, no issues.
Then prime, powder and seat bullet - won’t chamber...
Pull bullet, powder - brass won’t chamber.
Run brass through FL die again - and it chambers...
Does seating a bullet change the neck?? Any other ideas here??


Yes, seating the bullet makes the neck larger. More likely a problem with over-size cast bullets, or if you've necked-down larger brass and might need to turn the necks.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by SCJ429 » 18 Apr 2019, 8:05 pm

Seating the pill does change the neck, it will make it bigger. Say your 30/06 brass is 332 after sizing, it should go 338 after seating. You need a few thou clearance to fit into the chamber safely so the fired case should come out at least 341. I doubt your factory chamber is that tight.

Do you think it is not chambering because of the neck, shoulder or case wall?
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 18 Apr 2019, 8:55 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Seating the pill does change the neck, it will make it bigger. Say your 30/06 brass is 332 after sizing, it should go 338 after seating. You need a few thou clearance to fit into the chamber safely so the fired case should come out at least 341. I doubt your factory chamber is that tight.

Do you think it is not chambering because of the neck, shoulder or case wall?


Good question.
At first I thought it was case length, thus my reasoning to pull and retest.
All my 06 brass is ex factory rounds, so I’d doubt its neck thickness.
I think it’s shoulder but I cannot understand how seating a projectile would change shoulder...

I cannot convey how pissed I was - finally getting a couple hours away, to find 30 out of 50 round wouldn’t chamber, despite chambering the brass prior to seating the projectiles. Lesson in here somewhere...but FAAARRRRKKKKKK!!!!!!!

I’d made 4 rounds each from 54gns to 60gns - 0.5 every group...48 rounds.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Stix » 18 Apr 2019, 9:27 pm

So having checked the bullet diameter etc is correct for cartridge...and you can see daylight when having a gander down the barrel ensuring its clear...

the case with pulled bullet...dropped in ejection port of the rifle to chamber...muzzle down & rifle vertical giving a vibratory "shake" letting case 'fall' into chamber...does the bolt close...?
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Bills Shed » 18 Apr 2019, 9:48 pm

TT,
this is a stab in the dark but did you anneal the brass and if so how far down the case did you go. My reasoning is that if the brass is soft .....ish, when you seat the projectile the shoulder can be squashed a little,especially if seating flat base projectiles into unchanfered necks. Some times it takes a bit of pressure to get the projectile started into the neck and that pressure can collapse the shoulder very slightly with the end result being that the shoulder is a few thou larger in diameter and so the case will not chamber full. Just a guess but I have done it with smaller thinner cases when forming cases to smaller calls.
Measure one that chambers , at the shoulder, and one that will not, or, remove the seating die from the press, remove the seating stem out of the seating die , turn it over and place a non chambering round in the die (finger pressure only) and note how far it goes into the die and then do the same with a round that does chamber. Is there a difference? Remember this is just a guess.

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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by JimTom » 18 Apr 2019, 10:02 pm

Mate are you crimping the projectiles or just seating them? I had some projectiles with cannelure that I thought I would experiment with and crimp with my Redding dies. These would not chamber as the brass ended up with a small roll at the case mouth due to my incorrect die setup perhaps.
I don’t bother crimping, I just seat the projectiles now and have never had another issue.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Stix » 18 Apr 2019, 10:12 pm

I like Bills checking cases in the die idea...
Good stuff...!
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by trekin » 19 Apr 2019, 4:51 am

Have you measured the diameter of the projectiles yet?
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Strikey » 19 Apr 2019, 5:16 am

trekin wrote:Have you measured the diameter of the projectiles yet?



A few years ago now but seen a bloke having problems opening the bolt on a Rem 700, his powder charge wasn't excessive and it turned out he was using 303 projectiles in a 308. I'm wondering if that's the issue TT is having??
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 Apr 2019, 6:17 am

Stix wrote:So having checked the bullet diameter etc is correct for cartridge...and you can see daylight when having a gander down the barrel ensuring its clear...

the case with pulled bullet...dropped in ejection port of the rifle to chamber...muzzle down & rifle vertical giving a vibratory "shake" letting case 'fall' into chamber...does the bolt close...?


The projectiles are 168 zmax .30. The seated fine. It’s def something to do with cases.

The bolt won’t close on 30 out of 50.
Of the 20 that would close, some were tight and some were perfect. I fired all the ones that allowed bolt closure - no primers indicated any high pressure issues.

Friend thinks might be worth while, tossing all the old 06 brass and starting again with new stuff - it’s clear this new sauer is tight as fark compared to steyr.
Last edited by TassieTiger on 19 Apr 2019, 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 Apr 2019, 6:19 am

Bills Shed wrote:TT,
this is a stab in the dark but did you anneal the brass and if so how far down the case did you go. My reasoning is that if the brass is soft .....ish, when you seat the projectile the shoulder can be squashed a little,especially if seating flat base projectiles into unchanfered necks. Some times it takes a bit of pressure to get the projectile started into the neck and that pressure can collapse the shoulder very slightly with the end result being that the shoulder is a few thou larger in diameter and so the case will not chamber full. Just a guess but I have done it with smaller thinner cases when forming cases to smaller calls.
Measure one that chambers , at the shoulder, and one that will not, or, remove the seating die from the press, remove the seating stem out of the seating die , turn it over and place a non chambering round in the die (finger pressure only) and note how far it goes into the die and then do the same with a round that does chamber. Is there a difference? Remember this is just a guess.

Bill


No annealing - but now you mention it, I did have different pressures required for bullet seating. Hmmm.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 Apr 2019, 6:21 am

JimTom wrote:Mate are you crimping the projectiles or just seating them? I had some projectiles with cannelure that I thought I would experiment with and crimp with my Redding dies. These would not chamber as the brass ended up with a small roll at the case mouth due to my incorrect die setup perhaps.
I don’t bother crimping, I just seat the projectiles now and have never had another issue.


Definitely not crimping.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by trekin » 19 Apr 2019, 7:57 am

TassieTiger wrote:
Stix wrote:So having checked the bullet diameter etc is correct for cartridge...and you can see daylight when having a gander down the barrel ensuring its clear...

the case with pulled bullet...dropped in ejection port of the rifle to chamber...muzzle down & rifle vertical giving a vibratory "shake" letting case 'fall' into chamber...does the bolt close...?


The projectiles are 168 zmax .30. The seated fine. It’s def something to do with cases.

The bolt won’t close on 30 out of 50.
Of the 20 that would close, some were tight and some were perfect. I fired all the ones that allowed bolt closure - no primers indicated any high pressure issues.

Friend thinks might be worth while, tossing all the old 06 brass and starting again with new stuff - it’s clear this new sauer is tight as fark compared to steyr.

But have you actually measured the projectiles yet? It is not unknown for problems with the factorie's QC, even at the ratios, good to bad/box, you are speaking of.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by straightshooter » 19 Apr 2019, 8:01 am

At first glance it seems neck thickness may be the problem. Are you sure the projectiles measure .308.
The only way to resolve your problem is with careful measurement and observation.
A lucky dip of suggestions is unlikely to help.
Did you adhere strictly to a published recipe using your specific projectile?
First thing is to look up SAAMI drawings of chamber and cartridge dimensions and compare with your rounds.
Second is to observe any fresh marks left on the rounds that chamber with difficulty or don't chamber.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Stix » 19 Apr 2019, 8:20 am

With all due respect Straightshooter....I dont think peoples responses here are any more a "lucky dip of suggestions" than yours...

In one way or another i see everyone is suggesting to check measurements/dimensions of cases & bullets.

And using a "published recipe" wouldnt appear to have anything to do with not being able to chamber the cartridges...i doubt he has doubled a published charge & stuffed it in with a ram rod.

Sorry...no angst...just saying... :) :drinks:
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 19 Apr 2019, 8:29 am

trekin wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:
Stix wrote:So having checked the bullet diameter etc is correct for cartridge...and you can see daylight when having a gander down the barrel ensuring its clear...

the case with pulled bullet...dropped in ejection port of the rifle to chamber...muzzle down & rifle vertical giving a vibratory "shake" letting case 'fall' into chamber...does the bolt close...?


The projectiles are 168 zmax .30. The seated fine. It’s def something to do with cases.

The bolt won’t close on 30 out of 50.
Of the 20 that would close, some were tight and some were perfect. I fired all the ones that allowed bolt closure - no primers indicated any high pressure issues.

Friend thinks might be worth while, tossing all the old 06 brass and starting again with new stuff - it’s clear this new sauer is tight as fark compared to steyr.

But have you actually measured the projectiles yet? It is not unknown for problems with the factorie's QC, even at the ratios, good to bad/box, you are speaking of.


I should make it a bit clearer - the rounds will push in to chamber, bolt will not close. I’m still learning accurate terminology.

I’ve measured some of the zmax rounds and I fired a few without the rifle exploding.
They are not 100% uniform but very very close - .05mm In difference max.
I actually weighed 50 because I was going to batch them but they were so close I gave up after 10.

I’ll have to get the verniers back out and try and screen shoulder angles.
Sometimes another set of eyes can see something your missing so a friend is going to come over after Easter and check the oal gauge process I’m using etc

The cases are all old now - 3 or 4 reloads...seeing marks is next to impossible as they are a bit scruffy.

I’ll just spend Easter re filling a bottle of ar2209 and end up with a right arm bicep akin to Arnies lol.

Appreciate all responses - might be a lucky dip but it’s food for thought all the same...
Cheers.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by tom604 » 19 Apr 2019, 8:59 am

full length resize-- chambers
put bullet in -- wont chamber
pull bullet-- wont chamber
resize again-- chambers
some bullets seated easy, some harder

i would say neck thickness or that when your seating the bullet its swelling the base of the neck /shoulder area by a poofteenth stopping it short
when you say the tolerances are tight they must be extra (read none) tight
hope you get it sorted :thumbsup:
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Apollo » 19 Apr 2019, 9:24 am

Get a case that won't chamber properly and run a Texta line down each 1/4 from case mouth to base then try to chamber it. Remove carefully and check the case to see if the texta mark has been removed anywhere.

Same can be done by sooting the case.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Gaz52 » 20 Apr 2019, 6:18 am

Hi have you measured the neck diameter of the loaded rounds that failed to chamber? If i recall correctlythe case necks should only expand by around .002 inch when a bullet is seated. If the increase is markedly more it would indicate the inside dimensions are too small , requiring neck turning. Variable brass is a pain in the ass! Imho.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by straightshooter » 20 Apr 2019, 7:05 am

Stix wrote:With all due respect Straightshooter....I dont think peoples responses here are any more a "lucky dip of suggestions" than yours...

In one way or another i see everyone is suggesting to check measurements/dimensions of cases & bullets.

And using a "published recipe" wouldnt appear to have anything to do with not being able to chamber the cartridges...i doubt he has doubled a published charge & stuffed it in with a ram rod.

Sorry...no angst...just saying... :) :drinks:


No need to be apologetic about questioning somebody's statement. It's a sign of intelligence or ignorance depending of course on circumstances.
I should have been a little more concise. By published recipe I am referring to what may be found in, for example, the Hornady reloading manual which amongst other things will specify the COL and max case length that will ensure the round will work satisfactorily and safely in any SAAMI specified chamber. I don't mean something put up by some unknown and unaccountable person on the internet.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by marksman » 20 Apr 2019, 12:39 pm

IMHO I think the actual shoulder is buckling when you seat the bullet making the case too long for headspace
if its hard to seat the bullet it pushes the neck down deforming the shoulder and it wont take much in a fireformed case
you may need a comparator to check www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKeByFvVgY

it is very important IMHO that your bullet seats and releases easily with little pressure to do so, a similar consistency at least
your projectile should only be held by enough grip that you cant pull the bullet with your fingers, 2-3 thou

if you are feeling different pressures to seat a bullet your cases have different neck tension and you need to anneal or replace your cases

that's what I'm thinking anyway :drinks:
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Apollo » 20 Apr 2019, 1:57 pm

Gaz52 wrote:Hi have you measured the neck diameter of the loaded rounds that failed to chamber? If i recall correctlythe case necks should only expand by around .002 inch when a bullet is seated. If the increase is markedly more it would indicate the inside dimensions are too small , requiring neck turning. Variable brass is a pain in the ass! Imho.
Gaz.


I don't think you will find any factory chambered rifle that will require neck turning ever. They simply don't make them that tight a tolerance in fact it's probably the other way around. That is unless the rifle has fired so many rounds that it has built up a carbon ring in the neck part of the chamber so it's not neck turning that's required, it's clean the carbon out of the chamber and that isn't easy if it has built up and hardened.

Even though neck thickness varies between manufacturers, some on the thin side and some thick they will never come close enough to cause problems with a factory chambered rifle.

Custom chambers are quite a different story.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 27 Apr 2019, 8:41 pm

So quick follow up on this.
My local friendly 70 year old ex army sniper mate came over and checked out my processes, measured chamber, etc.
He is stunned at the tight tolerances on the sauer compared to my previous 06’s - and measuring the shoulders vs one that would chamber vs wouldn’t, showed very little.
He did find some minor cracks in some necks on some cases, which I missed - proved some case wall issues within my brass.
So because I had to previously resize some already primed cases, I elevated the deprime pin on the FL die - and I didn’t think it would matter as the neck would still be resized.
He thinks that having the redraw pill, sitting so high within the resizing did process, that some thin walled cases may have been pulled further up into the die, thus giving a slightly different angle - thus not allowing bolt closure...I don’t want to question him, he knows so much more than me and generally, I respect my elders to the nth degree.
Does this sound right??

Anyway - we set everything again, made a dummy case at just under max length for that 168gn projectile and it chambered / closed like butter.
So 100 lap cases on the way...I’ll pull the old cases and save powder and projectiles - start from scratch with some jewel like cases.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by marksman » 27 Apr 2019, 11:17 pm

I am in agreeance with your mate Tassie :thumbsup:
I am older than you to I think :wtf:
how you can stop this from happening is to lube the necks with a graphite type of lube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8p_99I0f4s

I do have and use the one in the vid but also use a cotton bud with some lee lube and get the same effect
if you can get your head around what your mate is telling you you will understand why you should lube the inside of the neck when using a set of sizing dies that have an expander button

you can also use bushing dies or lee collet dies and wont have the problem :drinks:
glad you got a resolve :drinks:
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Apr 2019, 6:44 am

I do use a graphite for expander die - if I forget to do so, it screeches and grated and carry’s on. I case lube on a rolling pad and then dip the neck into graphite powder...
His point is that expander button was set way too high in the die - but I thought that the expander die simply reamed the neck for bullet seating and had nothing to do with shoulder?
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Bills Shed » 28 Apr 2019, 7:31 am

TassieTiger wrote:I do use a graphite for expander die - if I forget to do so, it screeches and grated and carry’s on. I case lube on a rolling pad and then dip the neck into graphite powder...
His point is that expander button was set way too high in the die - but I thought that the expander die simply reamed the neck for bullet seating and had nothing to do with shoulder?


It does not ream the inside of the neck but stretches the brass to the correct size. Ream would infer that you are removing metal.
If you think the case shoulder is being stretched when withdrawing the expander ball, you are doing something wrong. No offence meant. It really sounds like that neck brass is really hard, considering small cracks and screatching when withdrawing the expander ball. New lap brass may solve the issue in the short term but it still work hardens. Brass is brass and no name branding will change that.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Apr 2019, 12:21 pm

Agreed Bill but if I Fark up the lapua brass I’ll punch myself...

I’m still learning the correct terminologies associated with reloading.

When setting up the fl die, it states to set the deprime pin 3-8 lower than the die base. I wound this pin up into the die, so nothing was protruding, in fact the deprime pin (of which the expander ball is attached), was recessed maybe 1/2 inch into the body of the die...it’s this that he is saying was causing the neck angle change.

Anyways - what ever the fug it was...I’ll probably just fondle and stare at the lap cases for a week before doing anything. I can’t really afford to be buying them but...They are pretty. They are beautiful.
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by Member-Deleted » 28 Apr 2019, 12:56 pm

Hey Tassie tiger mate i'm a little slow at learning and I had some gun issues like you when I bought my 7mm mag with the help of a few blokes on here and some learning of my own I sorted it out of sorts I eventually set my FL die up with a fired brass that had a light load so as not to deform or lengthen it too much if any then I set the primer pin remover to 5mm below the die I then found that the brass after FL sizing was hard to remove from the balled sizer on the primer remover I was told to use a dry lube and it's the one that's mentioned on here somewhere mines '' Imperial dry neck lube'' put only the first 10mm of the neck in and give it a couple of twists and you'll have no more sticking also I use ''One Shot'' lube for my brass when i'm sizing don't over do it or you'll get denting in the shoulder of the shell but other than that if the shell is trimmed to proper length all should run smooth i'm probably a little late with this but i'm no expert I keep it as simple as possible mainly for my own sake cheers :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Does seating a projectile change brass?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Apr 2019, 1:01 pm

Hey Tassie tiger mate i'm a little slow at learning and I had some gun issues like you when I bought my 7mm mag with the help of a few blokes on here and some learning of my own I sorted it out of sorts I eventually set my FL die up with a fired brass that had a light load so as not to deform or lengthen it too much if any then I set the primer pin remover to 5mm below the die I then found that the brass after FL sizing was hard to remove from the balled sizer on the primer remover I was told to use a dry lube and it's the one that's mentioned on here somewhere mines '' Imperial dry neck lube'' put only the first 10mm of the neck in and give it a couple of twists and you'll have no more sticking also I use ''One Shot'' lube for my brass when i'm sizing don't over do it or you'll get denting in the shoulder of the shell but other than that if the shell is trimmed to proper length all should run smooth i'm probably a little late with this but i'm no expert I keep it as simple as possible mainly for my own sake cheers :thumbsup: :drinks:


Im hearing you. I think the looser dimensions of the previous steyr 06 i had let me get away with small mistakes where’s this sauer is saying “no asshat, do it properly!”...
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