Bullet seated too deep ???

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Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 18 May 2019, 7:22 pm

Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube by the ‘6.5 Guys’, who are a couple of enthusiasts so not considered authoritative I guess. They indicated at the 43.48 (minute) mark that if loading/seating (to Saami specification length, but should that make a difference here?) ‘… make sure that the heel of the bullet is not going below the neck-shoulder junction …’. Now unless I have misinterpreted ‘heel’ to mean the bottom of the bullet/projectile, I have definitely exceeded this as they are seated near the bottom of the shoulder [shoulder-case junction] (see image, top cartridge is my reloaded round with the same Berger VLD Target projectile used above for indication of depth, bottom cartridge is a Federal 140gr Soft Point 6.5 Creedmoor factory round, unrelated but just for comparison of how much difference b/w case bottom to tip length differences there are for different projectiles). Are Saami specification bullets a lot shorter than Berger bullets, thus what the 6.5 Guys have indicated here is in fact correct?

So, do I have anything to worry about here? These bullets are seated to be 0.020 of the lands, 2.2510 inches ogive, thus their seating depth.
6.5 guys (youtube) -
S5 - 07 - A Look At Our Reloading Practices
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4QwlN8bfI
Attachments
Berger Reloading Cartridge - Bullet seating depth 18.05.2019 - Copy 2.jpg
Top Cartridge is reloaded one, bottom is Federal Factory Cartridge
Berger Reloading Cartridge - Bullet seating depth 18.05.2019 - Copy 2.jpg (925.83 KiB) Viewed 1724 times
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by bigfellascott » 18 May 2019, 7:49 pm

Looks alright to me. :unknown:
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by TassieTiger » 18 May 2019, 7:58 pm

Does the bullet you have loaded, fit in your magazine ?
Have you test chambered the reloads ?
Sami specs are general size only ( my understand - the saami stipulated sizes will chamber and shoot in “any” rifle of the nominated chambering size, so have to be a lot shorter as a result) - you can load longer as long as your not jamming the projectile into the rifling when chambering.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 18 May 2019, 8:03 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Looks alright to me. :unknown:


Hi bigfelascott,

That's what I was thinking as have double checked all measurements so a bit stumped at what the 6.5 guys are saying.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 18 May 2019, 8:15 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Does the bullet you have loaded, fit in your magazine ?
Have you test chambered the reloads ?
Sami specs are general size only ( my understand - the saami stipulated sizes will chamber and shoot in “any” rifle of the nominated chambering size, so have to be a lot shorter as a result) - you can load longer as long as your not jamming the projectile into the rifling when chambering.


Hi TassieTiger,

Had tried a bullet in my magazine & it apprears to JUST fit (around 2mm of the wall), though maybe that is not ideal when it comes to operating with a mag. That is not a problem for the moment though (if doesn't fit the magazine) as will single load if I have to for fly shoot etc, but will make up loads for the magazine at a latter time if I need to shoot at a more rapid pace.

Have test chambered a reload appears to be fine.

Main thing is what I have done here fine?

The NOT seating below the neck is puzzling to me, even for Saami spec bullets as suggested by these 6.5 guys
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by TassieTiger » 18 May 2019, 8:28 pm

You haven’t done anything wrong that I can see - and 2mm clearance is fine in the mag. I’ve a 260 and load that so tip actually just drags with some BT’s.
Maybe I’m mis reading something but it sounds to me like they are saying not to seat the projectile deep below, into and passed the shoulder, which would result in a too short bullet, not too long.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 18 May 2019, 8:41 pm

TassieTiger,

I don't know enough about reloading so can only speculate but they indicate the neck-shoulder junction (top of shoulder area) & not the shoulder-case junction (bottom shoulder area). My thoughts were perhaps they were thinking about reduced case capacity seating too low & therefore potential pressure issues with powder loadings. They did mention something about 'donut' issues related to this seating (neck thickness & concentricity issue?) but can't make out the connection, and as indicated know next to nothing about reloading.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 18 May 2019, 10:26 pm

When you seat deeply you make your case effectively smaller and raise pressures. When you seat longer you have more case capacity and potentially more speed. Of course many bullets perform better with less jump, the bullet is presented to the lands straighter. The best option is to have the bullet jammed, the bullet is supported by the lands, pressure is high and you have plenty of case to cram powder into.

Of course this all goes out the window if you have to load to a magizene lenght, then you have to choose a bullet with a ogive design that tolerates jump.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by TassieTiger » 18 May 2019, 10:32 pm

SC - can you not introduce pressure spikes via jamming into lands as well?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 18 May 2019, 10:41 pm

Yes you will raise pressures by jamming the bullet into the lands. This is not usually a dangerous spike in pressure unless you are on the ragged edge with a load where the bullet is jumped to some degree. Work up you load with a jammed bullet as you would as a matter of course.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Oldbloke » 19 May 2019, 12:16 pm

You should know how far you are off the lands. Suggest you measure it. From what ive read, 40 thou to 15 thou seems to be the area. 20 thou works for me.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 19 May 2019, 6:49 pm

the idea of what they are talking about is to miss the do-nut area in the neck and get the most out of your reloads,
more powder, more velocity less pressure
to be able to load like this you need a long throated chamber like you have, if you have do-nuts either remove the do-nut or throw the case
just understand that every rifle is a rule unto itself, you shouldn't be looking at what some other guy said/did, do it yourself
my advise firstly is to forget sammi, if you want sammi buy factory loads
secondly that length you are using is ok but only just, when the throat increases in length I would advise to load to the base of the neck for less runout
you should IMHO have your bullet seated at least a caliber into the neck
it may be beneficial if you read the article on the effects of cartridge over all length COAL by Brian Litz

https://bergerbullets.com/effects-of-ca ... to-part-1/

https://bergerbullets.com/effects-of-ca ... to-part-2/

I shoot the 140gr bergers in my 6.5x284 and can confirm that they are a brilliant bullet :drinks:
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 19 May 2019, 8:08 pm

How are they getting a donut if they are not necking up the case? And if they do form a donut, why don't they inside ream the neck?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 19 May 2019, 10:08 pm

marksman wrote:the idea of what they are talking about is to miss the do-nut area in the neck and get the most out of your reloads,
more powder, more velocity less pressure
to be able to load like this you need a long throated chamber like you have, if you have do-nuts either remove the do-nut or throw the case
just understand that every rifle is a rule unto itself, you shouldn't be looking at what some other guy said/did, do it yourself
my advise firstly is to forget sammi, if you want sammi buy factory loads
secondly that length you are using is ok but only just, when the throat increases in length I would advise to load to the base of the neck for less runout
you should IMHO have your bullet seated at least a caliber into the neck
it may be beneficial if you read the article on the effects of cartridge over all length COAL by Brian Litz

https://bergerbullets.com/effects-of-ca ... to-part-1/

https://bergerbullets.com/effects-of-ca ... to-part-2/

I shoot the 140gr bergers in my 6.5x284 and can confirm that they are a brilliant bullet :drinks:


Hi marksman,

Can you please explain more about ‘…secondly that length you are using is ok but only just, when the throat increases in length I would advise to load to the base of the neck for less runout’ - I do not quite understand what you mean. Did you mean ‘re seat’ longer/deeper in depth (thus the ‘less runout’ [bullet centralized] reference) when you said ‘load’, or did you mean load up powder to the base of the neck?

My bullet is seated (not including the boat tail area, just the bearing surface) approx. 2 ½ to 3mm from the bottom of the neck (neck-shoulder junction), the cartridge width (.264) is just 1 mm above the bottom of the neck, therefore I am about 1 ½ to 2 mm shallow for what you recommend as a minimum (have read about that rule of thumb before). Was it from eyeing the image that you indicated ‘… secondly that length you are using is ok, but only just,…’ ?

I believe I understand the 'donut' thing now, shoulder cartridge material gets pushed into the neck area causing a thickening of the area that can have detrimental effects on bullet seating tension consistency & potentially cause dangerous pressure spike problems. Would you then not feel this when seating a bullet (feels considerably harder to press), unless of course they were all affected by it :o. Is there an easy way to see this on a case?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 19 May 2019, 10:18 pm

SCJ429 wrote:How are they getting a donut if they are not necking up the case? And if they do form a donut, why don't they inside ream the neck?


Hi SCJ429,

I also read somewhere that if neck sizing short(and neck turning short) of the whole neck, this can cause the donut issue as well (fired powder pressure pushing shoulder material into that area?).

Also read somewhere that reaming the inside of the neck can potentially cause inconsistency of the internal diameter (wall thickness) so possibly why some may not recommend doing this.

So much info. to take on, difficult to sort through :(
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 20 May 2019, 8:11 am

I am not sure that many guys neck turn too short, most including me, neck turn too far into the shoulder and can go close to cutting the neck off. When necking up, like forming 30 BR cases, you form a donut by including the thicker shoulder to form the neck. You can either neck turn and use a inside mandrel to remove it or neck turn only and keep pushing the donut to the outside.

The thinking was that long necked cases like the 222 were required for accuracy. This has proved not the case and very little neck is required. A case like the BRX will shoot as well as a straight BR even though it has a shorter neck. As long as the pill is supported and straight you can shoot well. My take anyway.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Strikey » 20 May 2019, 8:28 am

cirles wrote:Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube by the ‘6.5 Guys’, who are a couple of enthusiasts so not considered authoritative I guess. They indicated at the 43.48 (minute) mark that if loading/seating (to Saami specification length, but should that make a difference here?) ‘… make sure that the heel of the bullet is not going below the neck-shoulder junction …’. Now unless I have misinterpreted ‘heel’ to mean the bottom of the bullet/projectile, I have definitely exceeded this as they are seated near the bottom of the shoulder [shoulder-case junction] (see image, top cartridge is my reloaded round with the same Berger VLD Target projectile used above for indication of depth, bottom cartridge is a Federal 140gr Soft Point 6.5 Creedmoor factory round, unrelated but just for comparison of how much difference b/w case bottom to tip length differences there are for different projectiles). Are Saami specification bullets a lot shorter than Berger bullets, thus what the 6.5 Guys have indicated here is in fact correct?

So, do I have anything to worry about here? These bullets are seated to be 0.020 of the lands, 2.2510 inches ogive, thus their seating depth.
6.5 guys (youtube) -
S5 - 07 - A Look At Our Reloading Practices
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4QwlN8bfI


Buy yourself a Hornady OAL gauge and a modified case to suit, takes all the guesswork out of it :thumbsup:
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 20 May 2019, 9:11 am

I will try and explain

"that length you are using is ok but only just"
the bullet is already not seated 1 caliber into the neck,checked by measuring off the puter screen, :thumbsup: the way you have it seated is ok if you are touching the lands but if you are jumping your bullet should always be at least 1 caliber length into the neck for better runout [bullet centralized]

"when the throat increases in length I would advise to load to the base of the neck for less runout "
as you shoot more rounds through the barrel the throat will wear moving the throat forward giving you a bigger jump to the lands, IMO it would not be a good idea to seat your bullet further out of the neck trying to keep a say 20 thou jump so you will be getting way less than a caliber of the bullet seated in the case, you will IMO be better off getting a sweet spot for powder volume with the bullet seated just after the do-nut area in the neck and dealing with jump

"shoulder cartridge material gets pushed into the neck area causing a thickening of the area that can have detrimental effects on bullet seating tension consistency & potentially cause dangerous pressure spike problems. Would you then not feel this when seating a bullet (feels considerably harder to press),"
spot on :thumbsup: , yes you can feel the bump at the base of the neck and with a do-nut you will get high pressure spikes
you can also check for do-nuts by inserting a projectile into the neck of a fired case, if there is a do-nut present the bullet will stop at the neck base junction or be harder to push through that area when your bullet gets there :drinks:

I have a few custom chambers, my 6.5x284 being one of them, I get the reamer made to suit the bullet (chamber leade) at an OAL I want, it's the only way I know of to have the chamber made for what you want, when dealing with someone else's design you have to adapt to what they did with what will work
I think you already have your head around this :drinks:

here is a photo of the OAL sizes of my 6.5x284 with different bullets seated at the neck base junction, this is also where my bullets touch the lands

Image
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 20 May 2019, 9:33 am

SCJ429 wrote:if they do form a donut, why don't they inside ream the neck?


very good point, I use the K&M neck turner with the end fluted donut cutter

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/product ... g-kit.html

IMHO this is the best I have seen, you can use the neck turner without neck turning to only cut out the do-nut,
I have used the neck reamers made by wilson as well for comparison

once set up this is as easy as it can be :drinks:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhcpwPuMh2o
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:33 am

Strikey wrote:
cirles wrote:Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube by the ‘6.5 Guys’, who are a couple of enthusiasts so not considered authoritative I guess. They indicated at the 43.48 (minute) mark that if loading/seating (to Saami specification length, but should that make a difference here?) ‘… make sure that the heel of the bullet is not going below the neck-shoulder junction …’. Now unless I have misinterpreted ‘heel’ to mean the bottom of the bullet/projectile, I have definitely exceeded this as they are seated near the bottom of the shoulder [shoulder-case junction] (see image, top cartridge is my reloaded round with the same Berger VLD Target projectile used above for indication of depth, bottom cartridge is a Federal 140gr Soft Point 6.5 Creedmoor factory round, unrelated but just for comparison of how much difference b/w case bottom to tip length differences there are for different projectiles). Are Saami specification bullets a lot shorter than Berger bullets, thus what the 6.5 Guys have indicated here is in fact correct?

So, do I have anything to worry about here? These bullets are seated to be 0.020 of the lands, 2.2510 inches ogive, thus their seating depth.
6.5 guys (youtube) -
S5 - 07 - A Look At Our Reloading Practices
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4QwlN8bfI




Buy yourself a Hornady OAL gauge and a modified case to suit, takes all the guesswork out of it :thumbsup:


Hi Strikey,

Should have mentioned, but yes have done this. Measurement to Lands was 2.2715 inches Case Base to Ogive (CBTO) & seated 0.020 less at 2.2515 to stay away from Lands (scares me at the moment to 'jam' a load). Can then go from here to develop a load for this bullet.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:48 am

To marksman,

Thanks for clearing that up & confirming what I thought your were talking about here, plus the suggestion for checking for a potential donut problem .
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:58 am

SCJ429 wrote:I am not sure that many guys neck turn too short, most including me, neck turn too far into the shoulder and can go close to cutting the neck off. When necking up, like forming 30 BR cases, you form a donut by including the thicker shoulder to form the neck. You can either neck turn and use a inside mandrel to remove it or neck turn only and keep pushing the donut to the outside.

The thinking was that long necked cases like the 222 were required for accuracy. This has proved not the case and very little neck is required. A case like the BRX will shoot as well as a straight BR even though it has a shorter neck. As long as the pill is supported and straight you can shoot well. My take anyway.


Thanks for the input & ways the donut issue can be taken care of. Glad I won't be necking up any cases as this seems the most likely way to have that sort of problem. There is definitely different thoughts here on seating depth but that's all par for the course in this reloading business I guess, just like many other subjects :D
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Oldbloke » 20 May 2019, 12:19 pm

cirles wrote:Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube


IMHO this thread, although very informative has become way too technical for a newby.

All he needs to know is how to measure the distance the bullet is of the lands & the when it is touching.
(COAL) And

I used a cleaning rod initially but was never convinced it was very accurate. I found these instructions a while back & found they work well.

I do 5 or 6 and come up with an average but have difficulty seeing the marks left on the projectile. A candle will leave soot on the projectile & may be better than a marker. To improve this accuracy make or buy a bullet comparator. In another thread i sjow how i mafe one. Sugest you srsrch DIY comparator.

There are several ways to measure the seating depth of your bullet for your rifle. The most accurate way is through the use of a specialized seating depth tool. Another way to measure seating depth only requires a fired case, a bullet, a marker, and a set of calipers. The ogive or curved part of the bullet is the part that first
makes contact with the lands, so measuring with a bullet and fired case will only give you a measurement that is useful for bullets of the same shape.

Different bullets and bullets of different weights will have different ogive shapes, so keep this in mind when measuring and using your seating depth. If you change bullets, you will need to re-measure your seating depth with the new bullet.

Starting with a fired case, insert a bullet into the neck with your fingers. The bullet should freely slide into the case with little to no resistance. Next, lightly press the neck of the case against a hard surface to slightly dent the case mouth enough that it will grasp the bullet. Now, color the entire shank of the
bullet with a black felt-tip marker. Insert the base of the bullet into the case just enough that it is held by neck tension. Now, carefully insert the round into the camber of your rifle and close the bolt, but do not pull the trigger. (spme suggest you shoul remove the firing pin, but i dont) As you close the bolt, the bullet will contact the lands and be pushed back into the case.

Open the bolt and carefully withdraw the case and bullet. The bullet may still be in the case, (if it is at this point I measure the overall length with a vernier caliper & repeat a few times) or it may be stuck in the barrel. If it is still in the barrel, remove it by either tapping the butt of the rifle against the bench or the ground, or push the bullet gently out with a cleaning rod. The ink on the bullet will be scraped off to the point at which the bullet wasn’t pushed into the case any further. Re-insert the bullet in the case up to the point where the ink was scraped off and measure the cartridge overall length with your calipers. This is your rifle’s seating depth with that particular bullet. Repeat the procedure several times to get a more accurate average. Now, when you want to load bullets a certain distance off of the lands, simply subtract the desired amount of “jump” from the seating depth to get the desired overall length. For example: Rifle’s

Seating depth = 3.430 Desired “jump” to lands= .015 Load cartridges to an OAL of 3.415
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 12:59 pm

Hi Oldbloke,

Thanks for the very detailed methods explained here for finding Lands measurements, if other newbies follow this thread this is really useful information for a method they should consider.

I did find the measurements needed via using the Hornady OAL gauge. Had real issues in the beginning using this as was getting inconsistent measurements way larger than what I should have. Once I figured out what the cause was (holding the tube against the shoulder of the chamber but inadvertently slightly lifting this when trying to keep the tension there) I was getting consistent measurements within range of what I should have. Big relief that as I thought a person who reckons you can get measurement consistency to 1/2 a thousandths of an inch was exaggerating, but now think that is definitely possible.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 20 May 2019, 5:07 pm

this is very informative
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 5:28 pm

marksman wrote:this is very informative
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg


I wonder how light the seating tension is for this (0.020, 0.010 - Less, more)?

Would sizing the case via normal dies make it thin enough for the bolt to just drop as he showed?

Having to remove the ejector from the bolt, is that difficult?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 20 May 2019, 6:19 pm

Not difficult but fiddly and don't lose anything.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by TassieTiger » 23 May 2019, 7:07 pm

I’m not what id call experienced in reloading by any stretch but an old friend of mine who worked in the forces as a sniper is...and I agree with OB here.

When I started, the very basics of reloading were easy...then as I started getting results, I wanted to get better - so I bought a comparator, an OAL, etc and instead of getting better, I opened too many conflicting doors... I started to get completely lost as I moved further away from the basics - so much so, I asked my friend to step in and show me where I had screwed up.

He does NOT suffer fools lightly - so I set up my 06 on a bench, had the dies, cases, OAL gauge, comparator, etc etc all laid out for when he came over...

He walked in - picked up everything except the rifle - placed it all in a draw and said “do not open this for 2 effing years. “

He loaded a dummy bullet a little long on purpose and test chambered it - he then lowered the seating depth .005 each time, continuing to test chamber each time, until the bolt eventually closed without unusual resistance (he handed to me each time to feel the close force)....in the end - he handed me the bullet and said “here - in the field, this bullet will be with in 1-2mm’s of anything anyone can produce by other technical measurements...” after testing a few, I cannot argue with him.

I’m back doing the basics for now. Lesson learned.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Oldbloke » 23 May 2019, 8:26 pm

TassieTiger wrote: he handed me the bullet and said “here - in the field, this bullet will be with in 1-2mm’s of anything anyone can produce by other technical measurements...” after testing a few, I cannot argue with him.

I’m back doing the basics for now. Lesson learned.


More like within 5 thou of an inch. Good enough, for sure.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 23 May 2019, 8:48 pm

I am definitely a believer in the kiss principle :drinks:
as long as you get results :thumbsup:
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