Bullet seated too deep ???

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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 20 May 2019, 9:33 am

SCJ429 wrote:if they do form a donut, why don't they inside ream the neck?


very good point, I use the K&M neck turner with the end fluted donut cutter

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/product ... g-kit.html

IMHO this is the best I have seen, you can use the neck turner without neck turning to only cut out the do-nut,
I have used the neck reamers made by wilson as well for comparison

once set up this is as easy as it can be :drinks:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhcpwPuMh2o
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:33 am

Strikey wrote:
cirles wrote:Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube by the ‘6.5 Guys’, who are a couple of enthusiasts so not considered authoritative I guess. They indicated at the 43.48 (minute) mark that if loading/seating (to Saami specification length, but should that make a difference here?) ‘… make sure that the heel of the bullet is not going below the neck-shoulder junction …’. Now unless I have misinterpreted ‘heel’ to mean the bottom of the bullet/projectile, I have definitely exceeded this as they are seated near the bottom of the shoulder [shoulder-case junction] (see image, top cartridge is my reloaded round with the same Berger VLD Target projectile used above for indication of depth, bottom cartridge is a Federal 140gr Soft Point 6.5 Creedmoor factory round, unrelated but just for comparison of how much difference b/w case bottom to tip length differences there are for different projectiles). Are Saami specification bullets a lot shorter than Berger bullets, thus what the 6.5 Guys have indicated here is in fact correct?

So, do I have anything to worry about here? These bullets are seated to be 0.020 of the lands, 2.2510 inches ogive, thus their seating depth.
6.5 guys (youtube) -
S5 - 07 - A Look At Our Reloading Practices
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY4QwlN8bfI




Buy yourself a Hornady OAL gauge and a modified case to suit, takes all the guesswork out of it :thumbsup:


Hi Strikey,

Should have mentioned, but yes have done this. Measurement to Lands was 2.2715 inches Case Base to Ogive (CBTO) & seated 0.020 less at 2.2515 to stay away from Lands (scares me at the moment to 'jam' a load). Can then go from here to develop a load for this bullet.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:48 am

To marksman,

Thanks for clearing that up & confirming what I thought your were talking about here, plus the suggestion for checking for a potential donut problem .
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 11:58 am

SCJ429 wrote:I am not sure that many guys neck turn too short, most including me, neck turn too far into the shoulder and can go close to cutting the neck off. When necking up, like forming 30 BR cases, you form a donut by including the thicker shoulder to form the neck. You can either neck turn and use a inside mandrel to remove it or neck turn only and keep pushing the donut to the outside.

The thinking was that long necked cases like the 222 were required for accuracy. This has proved not the case and very little neck is required. A case like the BRX will shoot as well as a straight BR even though it has a shorter neck. As long as the pill is supported and straight you can shoot well. My take anyway.


Thanks for the input & ways the donut issue can be taken care of. Glad I won't be necking up any cases as this seems the most likely way to have that sort of problem. There is definitely different thoughts here on seating depth but that's all par for the course in this reloading business I guess, just like many other subjects :D
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Oldbloke » 20 May 2019, 12:19 pm

cirles wrote:Hi Guys,

New to reloading so 1st batch. Have loaded 50, 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr ammo (Lapua cases, Berger VLD Target projectiles). Watched a video on youtube


IMHO this thread, although very informative has become way too technical for a newby.

All he needs to know is how to measure the distance the bullet is of the lands & the when it is touching.
(COAL) And

I used a cleaning rod initially but was never convinced it was very accurate. I found these instructions a while back & found they work well.

I do 5 or 6 and come up with an average but have difficulty seeing the marks left on the projectile. A candle will leave soot on the projectile & may be better than a marker. To improve this accuracy make or buy a bullet comparator. In another thread i sjow how i mafe one. Sugest you srsrch DIY comparator.

There are several ways to measure the seating depth of your bullet for your rifle. The most accurate way is through the use of a specialized seating depth tool. Another way to measure seating depth only requires a fired case, a bullet, a marker, and a set of calipers. The ogive or curved part of the bullet is the part that first
makes contact with the lands, so measuring with a bullet and fired case will only give you a measurement that is useful for bullets of the same shape.

Different bullets and bullets of different weights will have different ogive shapes, so keep this in mind when measuring and using your seating depth. If you change bullets, you will need to re-measure your seating depth with the new bullet.

Starting with a fired case, insert a bullet into the neck with your fingers. The bullet should freely slide into the case with little to no resistance. Next, lightly press the neck of the case against a hard surface to slightly dent the case mouth enough that it will grasp the bullet. Now, color the entire shank of the
bullet with a black felt-tip marker. Insert the base of the bullet into the case just enough that it is held by neck tension. Now, carefully insert the round into the camber of your rifle and close the bolt, but do not pull the trigger. (spme suggest you shoul remove the firing pin, but i dont) As you close the bolt, the bullet will contact the lands and be pushed back into the case.

Open the bolt and carefully withdraw the case and bullet. The bullet may still be in the case, (if it is at this point I measure the overall length with a vernier caliper & repeat a few times) or it may be stuck in the barrel. If it is still in the barrel, remove it by either tapping the butt of the rifle against the bench or the ground, or push the bullet gently out with a cleaning rod. The ink on the bullet will be scraped off to the point at which the bullet wasn’t pushed into the case any further. Re-insert the bullet in the case up to the point where the ink was scraped off and measure the cartridge overall length with your calipers. This is your rifle’s seating depth with that particular bullet. Repeat the procedure several times to get a more accurate average. Now, when you want to load bullets a certain distance off of the lands, simply subtract the desired amount of “jump” from the seating depth to get the desired overall length. For example: Rifle’s

Seating depth = 3.430 Desired “jump” to lands= .015 Load cartridges to an OAL of 3.415
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 12:59 pm

Hi Oldbloke,

Thanks for the very detailed methods explained here for finding Lands measurements, if other newbies follow this thread this is really useful information for a method they should consider.

I did find the measurements needed via using the Hornady OAL gauge. Had real issues in the beginning using this as was getting inconsistent measurements way larger than what I should have. Once I figured out what the cause was (holding the tube against the shoulder of the chamber but inadvertently slightly lifting this when trying to keep the tension there) I was getting consistent measurements within range of what I should have. Big relief that as I thought a person who reckons you can get measurement consistency to 1/2 a thousandths of an inch was exaggerating, but now think that is definitely possible.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 20 May 2019, 5:07 pm

this is very informative
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 20 May 2019, 5:28 pm

marksman wrote:this is very informative
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg


I wonder how light the seating tension is for this (0.020, 0.010 - Less, more)?

Would sizing the case via normal dies make it thin enough for the bolt to just drop as he showed?

Having to remove the ejector from the bolt, is that difficult?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 20 May 2019, 6:19 pm

Not difficult but fiddly and don't lose anything.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by TassieTiger » 23 May 2019, 7:07 pm

I’m not what id call experienced in reloading by any stretch but an old friend of mine who worked in the forces as a sniper is...and I agree with OB here.

When I started, the very basics of reloading were easy...then as I started getting results, I wanted to get better - so I bought a comparator, an OAL, etc and instead of getting better, I opened too many conflicting doors... I started to get completely lost as I moved further away from the basics - so much so, I asked my friend to step in and show me where I had screwed up.

He does NOT suffer fools lightly - so I set up my 06 on a bench, had the dies, cases, OAL gauge, comparator, etc etc all laid out for when he came over...

He walked in - picked up everything except the rifle - placed it all in a draw and said “do not open this for 2 effing years. “

He loaded a dummy bullet a little long on purpose and test chambered it - he then lowered the seating depth .005 each time, continuing to test chamber each time, until the bolt eventually closed without unusual resistance (he handed to me each time to feel the close force)....in the end - he handed me the bullet and said “here - in the field, this bullet will be with in 1-2mm’s of anything anyone can produce by other technical measurements...” after testing a few, I cannot argue with him.

I’m back doing the basics for now. Lesson learned.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Oldbloke » 23 May 2019, 8:26 pm

TassieTiger wrote: he handed me the bullet and said “here - in the field, this bullet will be with in 1-2mm’s of anything anyone can produce by other technical measurements...” after testing a few, I cannot argue with him.

I’m back doing the basics for now. Lesson learned.


More like within 5 thou of an inch. Good enough, for sure.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 23 May 2019, 8:48 pm

I am definitely a believer in the kiss principle :drinks:
as long as you get results :thumbsup:
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by bigfellascott » 23 May 2019, 9:33 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I’m not what id call experienced in reloading by any stretch but an old friend of mine who worked in the forces as a sniper is...and I agree with OB here.

When I started, the very basics of reloading were easy...then as I started getting results, I wanted to get better - so I bought a comparator, an OAL, etc and instead of getting better, I opened too many conflicting doors... I started to get completely lost as I moved further away from the basics - so much so, I asked my friend to step in and show me where I had screwed up.

He does NOT suffer fools lightly - so I set up my 06 on a bench, had the dies, cases, OAL gauge, comparator, etc etc all laid out for when he came over...

He walked in - picked up everything except the rifle - placed it all in a draw and said “do not open this for 2 effing years. “

He loaded a dummy bullet a little long on purpose and test chambered it - he then lowered the seating depth .005 each time, continuing to test chamber each time, until the bolt eventually closed without unusual resistance (he handed to me each time to feel the close force)....in the end - he handed me the bullet and said “here - in the field, this bullet will be with in 1-2mm’s of anything anyone can produce by other technical measurements...” after testing a few, I cannot argue with him.

I’m back doing the basics for now. Lesson learned.


That's the method I use too, I've never used all this new wiz bang crap (designed to take ya money IMHO) you really don't need it unless you are an anal retentive or a paper murderer with OCD or into trying to shoot tiny little groups and to better them each outing. For general paper punching or hunting keep it simple I say, well unless you suffer OCD then get stuck into it :D
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 24 May 2019, 3:07 pm

Hey I am a paper puncher...but absolutely love the 6br its like a laser. I use the method above to find my lands
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 24 May 2019, 6:22 pm

The 6mmBR is a pretty handy hunting cartridge as well. Loading can be as complicated as you want to make it. Don't want to neck turn? Then use a no turn reamer.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 26 May 2019, 5:25 pm

Group 1 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg
1st grouping
Group 1 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg (611.76 KiB) Viewed 691 times
Like the experience you described here Tassie Tiger regarding your friend from the forces, the KISS principle sounds good.

RESULTS from shooting & odd measurements (100 meters) -

Had made up 50 brand new cases & my CBTO measurements for the 1st 20 cases had a range of 3 ½ thousandths b/w them, not what I had hoped for as made sure all case necks were lubricated. So still having issues with getting consistent sizing here, and considering people are talking of keeping bullets as low as 2 thousandths of the lands, that is not really cutting it. The last 30 cases loaded had a variation of 6 thousandths, which came from I think me having to empty the cases of loaded powder because I had forgotten to camfer the neck of those cases so this may have wiped away the dry lube (Mica) in the neck when I finally loaded (again) & seated them.

Images show some of the groupings (x5 each) , and they were all around this. The drawn circles with cross pattern are approx. 1 & 2/32 of an inch, I drew a sharpie felt pen around a 10 cent coin. Used ADI AR2209 powder, 38 grain [mid range], 140gr Berger VLD Target bullets, Lapua Cases Brand new. So now have once fired cases.

Used 2 different primers (25 each - CCI Magnum Small Rifle Primers No. 450 & Federal Premium Match Small Rifle GM250M). Funny thing is the CCI primed cases did not appear to have increased the shoulder length of the cases, but the Federal primed cases grew by 3 thousandths on average (more power generated?).

Another unexpected result was all case lengths are now shorter in length than when brand new, expansion to fit rifle chamber shortened all cases?
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Group 9 Bullets - Copy.jpg
9th grouping
Group 9 Bullets - Copy.jpg (842.72 KiB) Viewed 691 times
Group 5 Bullets - Copy.jpg
5th grouping
Group 5 Bullets - Copy.jpg (728.29 KiB) Viewed 691 times
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by marksman » 26 May 2019, 8:48 pm

circles you are getting a heap of horizontal
please dont be offended if I say I think you may be the problem
have a look at this utube vid I think will help you shrink your groups :thumbsup: :drinks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeJ8rRUSXc

be aware that a heavy trigger can cause horizontal as well as other things :drinks:
also a smaller target is better, aim small shoot small :thumbsup:
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 26 May 2019, 10:27 pm

Are they all the same powder charge but using different primers?

Why did you decide to use different primers for this load test?

Don't test more than one change at a time.

You look like you are having fun, keep it up.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 26 May 2019, 11:00 pm

marksman wrote:circles you are getting a heap of horizontal
please dont be offended if I say I think you may be the problem
have a look at this utube vid I think will help you shrink your groups :thumbsup: :drinks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeJ8rRUSXc

be aware that a heavy trigger can cause horizontal as well as other things :drinks:
also a smaller target is better, aim small shoot small :thumbsup:


Hi marksman,

No offense at all taken, & yes I think that I am the problem with the groups. Definitely getting horizontal shooting so any suggestions are welcome & will look at the video you have posted.

I find that I am not comfortable when it comes to operating the rifle on a bench (friend just starting says the same thing, he prefers shooting prone). I shoot from a bipod that has spiked feet (came as standard) so use a strip of rubber matting I place on the bench top & put my bipod on top of that. I then use my left hand under the pistol grip handle to help adjust height (do not use a bag or anything at the rear & do not wish to) while trying to hold the stock end hard into my shoulder (which I think may be wrong). Another problem I am running into is suffering from pins & needles in my right dodgy arm, result of neck issues that rose again 2-3 months ago, & that may be a game changer in ending this little game. Will have to see how that plays out next time.

Really enjoying this otherwise, the setting up & actually loading rounds that did not blow up the rifle :D
Last edited by cirles on 26 May 2019, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 26 May 2019, 11:13 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Are they all the same powder charge but using different primers?

Why did you decide to use different primers for this load test?

Don't test more than one change at a time.

You look like you are having fun, keep it up.


Hi SCJ429,

All powder charges exactly the same, but yes 2 different primers. Wanted to see if primers could make a difference regarding accuracy & don/t really see anything significant here. The puzzle is the growth/length increase of the shoulders on the Federal primer cases but not apparently on the CCI primer cases, which suggests to me that more power was generated by the Federal primers. But that did not seem to have much bearing on the accuracy at this 100 meters. Certainly my next load test, I will stick with the Federal primers because they seem to fire form the cases better.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 26 May 2019, 11:46 pm

Previous images were for the CCI primers, these 3 are for the Federal primers.
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Group 10 Bullets -1.jpg
Group 10 Bullets -1.jpg (565.72 KiB) Viewed 402 times
Group 6 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg
Group 6 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg (636.33 KiB) Viewed 402 times
Group 2 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg
Group 2 Bullets - Copy 1.jpg (521.84 KiB) Viewed 402 times
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 27 May 2019, 10:13 am

Stick with whatever primer you like but find a load that is sitting in a node that shoots. Then if you want to change primers you can do this testing. The new primer may give you extra speed and push you out of the node. You then throttle back the charge to get you back into the node and see if the primers have decreased your standard deviation. Do you have a chronograph?
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 27 May 2019, 10:24 am

Shooting prone off a bipod takes a little technique but can be extremely accurate. You see F class shooters using bipods on skids so that the rifle recoils straight back. If you put too much input into the rifle it may bounce off the ground sending your rounds left and right, up and down. Loading up the bipod by pushing it with your shoulder against spiked feet may be doing this. Try rubber feet and gentle pressure from your shoulder.

Marksman posted a vid that showed some excellent tips including trigger control. I find I am better with my thumb placed along the side of the stock, just above my trigger finger. Placing my thumb up behind the action tends to make me shoot left. If I am struggling I go to pinching the trigger with my thumb at the rear of the trigger guard.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by SCJ429 » 27 May 2019, 10:32 am

Don't use your left hand under the pistol grip, if you want to shoot without a rear bag use you left hand under the the stock below your face. There are also small tac bags you could consider, they are held in you hand and you squeeze them to get the desired height. These are used by PRC shooters in all sorts of difficult shooting positions.
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Re: Bullet seated too deep ???

Post by cirles » 27 May 2019, 12:16 pm

SCJ429,

Big thanks for all the tips here, genuinely appreciated that (as is all the input from everyone).

I do not have a chronograph so trying to find the node for the rifle is going to have to be based on group size alone I guess.

Regarding the bipod feet, will be getting at some stage feet used for bench type shooting, just did not at the time because of cost. I have no experience regarding how much 'bounce' is acceptable when shooting the Tikka TAC, but what I was shooting seemed to have plenty of it, so most likely me loading up too much (thinking to minimize movement of rifle) or my jury rigged rubber mat solution. Probably going to have to wait till I start the fly shooting & have someone observe how I actually shoot.

marksman suggested video was really good. Unfortunately the Tikka is a pistol grip rifle (needed that for the dodgy right arm (has very little wrist movement because of a destroyed elbow, which is where the majority of your wrist movement comes from), but contained some really useful info. on other aspects to focus on & evaluate movement issues from your positioning.

Thanks for the tip on the left hand positioning. The Tikka has a tactical style stock so placing a hand there is going to be uncomfortable to say the least, if not impossible, but your suggestion of the small tac bag sounds great, & something I will definitely explore (my thinking regarding use of the rifle is a portable, minimalist setup for where ever I would use it).
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