New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 11:06 am

Reason I assumed was because with some brass, you notice irregularities in wall thickness, in base thickness - from brass to brass.
This can result in a case becoming compressed with some loads and have large spaces with others.
You reload so You’d know thatctgis can and will increase speed-change point of impact, sometimes by inches.

Then there is the issue of longevity - with irregularities as mentioned above, reloaders might only obtain 2-3 reloads from some thin wall cases, calling into scrutiny the purchase price vs another more consistent brass provider...

Then there is tolerance accuracy on all brass...I bought some 223 Remington brass once that was all a fraction over trim to length size, meaning extra work from the off...

And so on...
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2019, 12:27 pm

flutch wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:You dont reload then...?



All the time, why try and make that misnomer?

My rifles clover leaf all day every day, I don't go to even half the pedantic steps others do, honestly can't see why they bother....


Well flutch, that’s great that you’re getting that sort of accuracy and performance out of your rifles without being overly pedantic. Some fellas rifles might not be as good as yours and need the extra work to give their best. Some folks try to attain the best they can just cause they want to. What rifles are you loading for mate ? You mentioned 223 and 270. What loads are you using ? And what brands of brass ?

:thumbsup:
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by flutch » 30 May 2019, 1:18 pm

bigrich wrote:
flutch wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:You dont reload then...?



All the time, why try and make that misnomer?

My rifles clover leaf all day every day, I don't go to even half the pedantic steps others do, honestly can't see why they bother....


Well flutch, that’s great that you’re getting that sort of accuracy and performance out of your rifles without being overly pedantic. Some fellas rifles might not be as good as yours and need the extra work to give their best. Some folks try to attain the best they can just cause they want to. What rifles are you loading for mate ? You mentioned 223 and 270. What loads are you using ? And what brands of brass ?

:thumbsup:



A combo of different brass, mostly Winchester Hornady and ppu, have consistent results across all of those for the 223, all my 270 brass is both ppu and Winchester (I was able to buy ppu for south of $20 a pack) all were factory rounds before, I trim and anneal every few reloads, and full size each reload, use a thrower and don't trickle.

223 I am loading with 25gn 2206h and Nosler Varmageddons 55gn

270 I am reloading 45gn 2208 with 130gn Hornady SST projies,

Both are loaded using CCI primers.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 2:27 pm

Must be high end rifles ?
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2019, 2:53 pm

Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by flutch » 30 May 2019, 2:57 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Must be high end rifles ?


From what I've read higher end stuff tends to be fussy as hell, my 270 is a Remington 783 glass bedded to a Boyd stock, and my 223 is a varmint howa pillar bedded to a thumbhole stock
Guns:
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Lanber U/O 12 gauge
Adler B220PG 12 gauge
Ruger 22lr
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Howa 223
Weatherby 300 Winmag

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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by flutch » 30 May 2019, 3:00 pm

bigrich wrote:Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers



Hey it's an old lee thrower, must be a Tuesday build as has no signs of mondayitis or Friday fails,

I anneal using the age old heat till it almost burns my finger and throw it in the tray of water technique, seems to work just fine, Bunnings gas torch.
Guns:
Rossi S/S 410
Lanber U/O 12 gauge
Adler B220PG 12 gauge
Ruger 22lr
Remington 270 win
Howa 223
Weatherby 300 Winmag

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G5 Prime Defy
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 3:38 pm

flutch wrote:
bigrich wrote:Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers



Hey it's an old lee thrower, must be a Tuesday build as has no signs of mondayitis or Friday fails,

I anneal using the age old heat till it almost burns my finger and throw it in the tray of water technique, seems to work just fine, Bunnings gas torch.


Sounds like you've got very lucky with both your rifles and your reloading gear...
Ive tried three powder throwers and they all work 75% of time - so now I only trickle via an auto hornady unit, i dont trust them for any developmental loads. A friend paid an extortionate amount of money for some kick arse job out of the US and even that screws up with stick powders like AR2209.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 3:51 pm

flutch wrote:Some people must have some fussy as f*** rifles, my 223 and 270 both shoot just fine with a whole plethora of different factory ammo and brass, honestly for the life of me don't understand what 99% of the drama is about, use what you can buy


My problem with the Winnie stuff is it appears to be annealed poorly, or not annealed at all. It makes it much more difficult to work with than it should be, particularly when sizing it into different cartridges. Once it's been prepped it's not bad, but the prepping is more work that it should be.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 3:53 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I bought some 223 Remington brass once that was all a fraction over trim to length size, meaning extra work from the off...


I greatly prefer it to be over-length, so I can prep the batch all to the same length.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 3:57 pm

bigrich wrote:Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers


I use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, and I have been staunchly opposed to not weighing every charge :-) But I tried it to get through a big batch of milsurp loads and it impressed the hell out of me.

I've never worked out how the stand-in-water-under-a-torch theory works, the torch just blows them over when I've tried it :-) The socket-in-a-drill works better.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 3:57 pm

bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:I bought some 223 Remington brass once that was all a fraction over trim to length size, meaning extra work from the off...


I greatly prefer it to be over-length, so I can prep the batch all to the same length.


I bought some 260 lapua cases a couple of days before I bought the remington 22...was a big difference lol.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2019, 4:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:Sounds like some well sorted loads flutch . What type of thrower are you using. Must be a very accurate thrower. I went back to using Lee powder “dippers” cause depending on the type of powder. I didn’t find mine was consistent enough. What anealing process do you use ? Sit the brass in a tray of water and use a gas torch ? I don’t get into weighing my cases or anything like that. I only trim mine halfway between max and minimum case length. I try to leave plenty of neck for neck tension. This helps with 22 hornet. I get some pretty tight groups the way i’m Doing things, but anealing is the next skill I have to work at . I’m loading for 22 hornet, 222, 6.5x55 and 357 mag in a lever at the moment. Pistol rounds are nice and easy . Cheers


I use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, and I have been staunchly opposed to not weighing every charge :-) But I tried it to get through a big batch of milsurp loads and it impressed the hell out of me.

I've never worked out how the stand-in-water-under-a-torch theory works, the torch just blows them over when I've tried it :-) The socket-in-a-drill works better.


some powders like benchmark 2 and lil gun measure well. but my favorite powder for my 6.5, RE22, is a long stick that doesn't measure well out of my hornady thrower . for my rifles i prefer to weigh each charge , just for my own piece of mind. i've gotten some amazing groups out of my old winchester 222 lately, one hole type stuff . i put it down to being ocd with this sort of thing . now that you mention it blade i remember the socket in a drill method . i'm gunna have to bite the bullet (pun intended :P ) and anneal some 6.5 cases soon. dunno if i'll try annealing hornet brass until i got some more experience , it's so thin it'll probably disolve if i'm not paying attention :lol:

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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by CrackThump » 30 May 2019, 5:35 pm

so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 6:05 pm

CrackThump wrote:so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)


For me, .223Rem brass doesn't need to be long lasting, it's cheap and available everywhere.

But Norma seems to very good, I have .204 brass that's been loaded around twenty times. I also have Hornady brass that's almost as old as the Norma and it's holding up well also.
As I said, my Winchester .223Rem brass bought once-fired is good, I just wouldn't buy their new brass. I got a bunch of Remington and PPU .223Rem that's also good. ADI/OSA also seems to be good stuff but limited in choice. I have kilos of S&B brass in lots of chamberings, and I haven't had any trouble with any of it. S&B is available everywhere for a buck apiece, but also comes up on special. A lot of my pistol-caliber is Starline which I like, plus it's easier to find in the grass than yellow brass. But I got all my Starline from the US.

If you're shooting competition then I think you just have to pay for the good stuff, Lapua, Peterson and such. For everything else I would just get whatever you find at the right price, and if you don't like it try something else.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 6:09 pm

bigrich wrote:some powders like benchmark 2 and lil gun measure well. but my favorite powder for my 6.5, RE22, is a long stick that doesn't measure well out of my hornady thrower . for my rifles i prefer to weigh each charge , just for my own piece of mind. i've gotten some amazing groups out of my old winchester 222 lately, one hole type stuff . i put it down to being ocd with this sort of thing . now that you mention it blade i remember the socket in a drill method . i'm gunna have to bite the bullet (pun intended :P ) and anneal some 6.5 cases soon. dunno if i'll try annealing hornet brass until i got some more experience , it's so thin it'll probably disolve if i'm not paying attention :lol:

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


I really only run AR2206H through the powder measure as that's what I tend to use for bulk loads. Non-milsurp loads of AR2206H I run through the measure, but dump to the pan, then to the scale to confirm, then into the case. All my other powders just get dropped to the pan with a dipper, then trickled up.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 7:21 pm

When I was researching lapua brass prices - I found a few places selling sako brass at about 2/3 price of lapua...one would think they’d have a bit of a reputation to uphold and that it would be better than decent...
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 8:10 pm

TassieTiger wrote:When I was researching lapua brass prices - I found a few places selling sako brass at about 2/3 price of lapua...one would think they’d have a bit of a reputation to uphold and that it would be better than decent...


I got about 50 Tikka cases in a batch of mixed once-fired .223Rem. I figured it's probably rebadged Norma?
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by SCJ429 » 30 May 2019, 8:23 pm

flutch wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Must be high end rifles ?


From what I've read higher end stuff tends to be fussy as hell, my 270 is a Remington 783 glass bedded to a Boyd stock, and my 223 is a varmint howa pillar bedded to a thumbhole stock


You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by TassieTiger » 30 May 2019, 8:23 pm

Was it noticeably better that the rem?
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by SCJ429 » 30 May 2019, 8:32 pm

CrackThump wrote:so what IS a good new brass to buy .? without going top end like Lapua etc.?

good, cheap, long lasting brass (for .223)


Sako don't make the brass I believe, I have not been able to confirm this but it may be Norma or RWS. It appears to be quite good in my rifle.

I also like OSA or ADI brass which works very well after a little prep.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2019, 8:32 pm

i was getting "white box" tikka branded ammo a while ago and it shot really well in a 22-250 . sako have their own branded ammo. i shot some target load stuff out of my 6.5 chinwester and swede mausers and it was quite good . i figure either norma or lapua make this stuff for tikka and sako, probably to their specs. have you guys seen what genuine weatherby ammo sells for ? ;) on rebels site, 30-378 weatherby with 165 barnes tsx , 20 rounds for $278 :o :wtf: :crazy:

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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 8:47 pm

SCJ429 wrote:You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.


Some people can do some amazing things sometimes, which can be damned annoying for people like me that aren't so talented :-)

I had a discussion a while back with a guy on Youtube. Shooting fifty-yard groups of .22LR and referring to them as sub-MoA, despite them being obviously about 30mm groups (bullet holes show their own scale quite well). He was adamant that the app he was using confirms they are sub-MoA. Some people just aren't very bright. He also shot a group at 200yds of .4MoA, but didn't have a photo of it, so I asked him if the 200yd group was smaller than his 50yd groups...no response. Unfortunately, modern kids will accept as gospel whatever an electronic device tells them, rather than simply measure it with a stick and prove their technology to be wrong. .22LR is particularly easy to estimate as a cartridge happens to be exactly one-inch in length :-)
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 30 May 2019, 9:16 pm

I haven't seen the new "winchester" brass however ive been so badly burnt by Winchester products id be reluctant to tuch the stuff.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by duncan61 » 30 May 2019, 9:17 pm

What is Minute of angle I am guessing it is a line 0 seconds 1 minute 0 degrees of centre
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by duncan61 » 30 May 2019, 9:20 pm

Its O.K. I googled it
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bladeracer » 30 May 2019, 9:22 pm

duncan61 wrote:What is Minute of angle I am guessing it is a line 0 seconds 1 minute 0 degrees of centre


It's a cone one-sixtieth of one-degree extending out from you forever. 29mm wide at 100m, 58mm wide at 200m, 290mm at 1000m, and so on.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by duncan61 » 30 May 2019, 9:26 pm

Thanks blade.I get where flutch is coming from and mostly agree.There is a fair bit of over thinking in making your own but their our toys and if we wish to play we will
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by flutch » 31 May 2019, 1:52 am

SCJ429 wrote:
flutch wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Must be high end rifles ?


From what I've read higher end stuff tends to be fussy as hell, my 270 is a Remington 783 glass bedded to a Boyd stock, and my 223 is a varmint howa pillar bedded to a thumbhole stock


You have done very well indeed if you can shoot five shot groups where each bullet hole is touching the others all day at 100 metres with a Remington 783 and in 270 which has not got the reputation for being the most inherently accurate case. Just imagine what you could do with a decent barrel in 6mm BR on your rifle, some Lapua brass and some care and attention to your reloading practices.

For the rest of us, getting the best brass we can is the foundation for getting an accurate load together.



The BS about 270win being innaccurate is hogwash, the bullets have a great BC and plenty of punch means flat shooting, the same could be said for any 80+ year old cartridge yet I'm sure people would get their knickers in a twist if I started picking on other old cartridges, truth is until recently it was only a lack of high BC or Target grade rounds that gave that false reputation, I would pit 270win against most things happily, hell people actually think 308win is amazing for accuracy, which is isn't by default, it's all a matter of what you actually know and looking at it objectively heck after all its a 6.8mm projectile, not unlike 6.5 really.
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Re: New Winchester brass...yes or no...?

Post by bigrich » 31 May 2019, 4:53 am

The least fussy cartridge I own is 222 . On my old barrel my first batch of loads with 40 gn vmax revealed a load that consistently made one neat hole. With the new 1-12 twist barrel it does that with 60 grain vmax now. The laws of physics haven’t changed and some of the older cartridges were designed well straight up . The fussiest cartridge I shoot is the 22 hornet. But with attention to detail it can shoot very consistently and accurately. The one cartridge I would like to get into is 7x57 Mauser. With modern projectiles it can outdo the creedmore ,to a point . But as I already have the 6.5 Swede it would be doubling up a bit in my view.
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