Help needed for 308 subsonic load

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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by SCJ429 » 27 Jun 2019, 7:49 pm

I can see that Hornady offer loaded ammunition for the 300 using 208 Amax but list it as target use. They also have a Sub X line for hunting using a 190 grain projectile. I don't know if the projectiles are available for reloaders. If it was it might be what the OP is after.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 7:52 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I can see that Hornady offer loaded ammunition for the 300 using 208 Amax but list it as target use. They also have a Sub X line for hunting using a 190 grain projectile. I don't know if the projectiles are available for reloaders. If it was it might be what the OP is after.


My suggestion is soft cast lead bullets for subsonic hunting loads.
This would be an excellent start I think.
http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds/rifle/30-calibre/309-225gc-double-cavity
225gn of pure lead at 1000fps is going to hit pretty hard.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by in2anity » 27 Jun 2019, 8:01 pm

Hopefully blr243 is watching this - he has real world hunting experience with some of those expensive 220gr 300blk pills. I gather subsonic expansion isn’t quite what it’s cracked up to be...
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 27 Jun 2019, 9:18 pm

bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:supersonic with cast not gonna work well. was choosing from 151 cast or 220 rn for subsonic. but if i'm gonna run at 1050 ish subsonic why don't i choose 220? same speed but much heavier projectile.
i am from New Zealand, trying to build the rifle for small to medium games? i have no idea if i could do big game with this rifle.


My preference for subsonic is a pure lead bullet as heavy as you can stabilise. An 8"-twist will stabilise just about any .308" bullet you can make.
For supersonic I would use a jacketed bullet designed to deal with the size of your target. A .308 would certainly deal with big game.


if using a heavy pure lead cast, what do u reckon soft cast or hard cast? i assume soft cast will expand really well, but would it leave lead foiling on rifling?

will definitely use sierra 2180 as supersonic now(bought it already :crazy: ). did some calculation: ideal twist for 220GR would be 1:10 ish. but 1:8 should be totally fine. more research to do now. hope i dont blow something up 8-)
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by in2anity » 27 Jun 2019, 9:25 pm

lmlalong wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:supersonic with cast not gonna work well. was choosing from 151 cast or 220 rn for subsonic. but if i'm gonna run at 1050 ish subsonic why don't i choose 220? same speed but much heavier projectile.
i am from New Zealand, trying to build the rifle for small to medium games? i have no idea if i could do big game with this rifle.


My preference for subsonic is a pure lead bullet as heavy as you can stabilise. An 8"-twist will stabilise just about any .308" bullet you can make.
For supersonic I would use a jacketed bullet designed to deal with the size of your target. A .308 would certainly deal with big game.


if using a heavy pure lead cast, what do u reckon soft cast or hard cast? i assume soft cast will expand really well, but would it leave lead foiling on rifling?

will definitely use sierra 2180 as supersonic now(bought it already :crazy: ). did some calculation: ideal twist for 220GR would be 1:10 ish. but 1:8 should be totally fine. more research to do now. hope i dont blow something up 8-)

For hunting, give the hard cast a miss. Hard cast are alloys however (not 100% lead, as suggested by BR) The hard alloys poke holes and isn’t very humane (from personal experience).
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 27 Jun 2019, 9:31 pm

bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:could i say its best to subsonic the 151 hp cast? which might expand at subsonic speed. and supersonic the jacket 220?
i have tried some factory 150-160gr ammo, unfortunately there were alot muzzle flash(unburnt powder) due to 16" short barrel length.


As long as the cast bullet is soft and not "hard cast" then it will function fine at subsonic velocities.
Try using faster powders in your short barrel to burn most of it before the bullet exits the muzzle, Trailboss for the subsonic loads.


what powder would u suggest to use on supersonic?
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by Blr243 » 27 Jun 2019, 10:06 pm

I just spent months of time and money doing very extensive research on how to get humane results with sub sonic 300 blk At $ 1.20 per projectile 220 grain noslers are supposed to expand at 1050 FPS.... all the copper stuff that is also soposed to work is impossible to get a hold of Australia or otherwise. One American company quoted me 7500 dollars to send me 200 copper expanding projectiles I wanted to go down this route because I was trying not to deafen my sniffer dog...I shoot close to him and he just about has a mental breakdown next to my 243. .. he was not phased at all on the last hunt when I used 300 blk subs ...but this ammo is a wounding combination on pigs and should be outlawed one this size game ...I have no doubt that with fast 125 grainers the 300 blk can perform nicely on pigs . I am selling this rifle. I have bought a 450 bushmaster and intend useing hollow point 300 grain xtp s that are designed to expand at pistol velocity......the new rifle / ammo choice also gives me 35 per cent more energy to do the job than what the 300 blk subs were giving me .......imagine a marble sized lead ball hitting a brick wall at 3000 FPS. Of course it’s going to expand or fragment. Now image a hard cast lead marble that is thrown by hand at the same wall.... you might get a tiny flat spot on one side of it .....and a much softer lead marble also thrown by hand will probably show a flat spot on one side ..... the point I’m trying to make is that at subsonic velocities bullet performance is extremely dependent on the softness of the lead and the design of the projectile ... so just grabbing a 220 grain Sierra round nose is bugger all improvement over a Fmj .....and it’s just not fair to the game we pursue
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by mickb » 27 Jun 2019, 10:36 pm

bladeracer wrote:This gives a pretty good list of some jacketed subsonic 300BLK bullets - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ultimate-300-aac-blackout-ammo-test/99395 and this is an old article, there are a lot more bullets available now.



We have to be honest about the 300blk subsonic choices though. Some are match bullets, not expanding, not all are available in Australia, and looking at reviews for some of them ( nosler and the 208 grain amax) they are not getting great expansion reports in the field.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 27 Jun 2019, 10:36 pm

Blr243 wrote:I just spent months of time and money doing very extensive research on how to get humane results with sub sonic 300 blk At $ 1.20 per projectile 220 grain noslers are supposed to expand at 1050 FPS.... all the copper stuff that is also soposed to work is impossible to get a hold of Australia or otherwise. One American company quoted me 7500 dollars to send me 200 copper expanding projectiles I wanted to go down this route because I was trying not to deafen my sniffer dog...I shoot close to him and he just about has a mental breakdown next to my 243. .. he was not phased at all on the last hunt when I used 300 blk subs ...but this ammo is a wounding combination on pigs and should be outlawed one this size game ...I have no doubt that with fast 125 grainers the 300 blk can perform nicely on pigs . I am selling this rifle. I have bought a 450 bushmaster and intend useing hollow point 300 grain xtp s that are designed to expand at pistol velocity......the new rifle / ammo choice also gives me 35 per cent more energy to do the job than what the 300 blk subs were giving me .......imagine a marble sized lead ball hitting a brick wall at 3000 FPS. Of course it’s going to expand or fragment. Now image a hard cast lead marble that is thrown by hand at the same wall.... you might get a tiny flat spot on one side of it .....and a much softer lead marble also thrown by hand will probably show a flat spot on one side ..... the point I’m trying to make is that at subsonic velocities bullet performance is extremely dependent on the softness of the lead and the design of the projectile ... so just grabbing a 220 grain Sierra round nose is bugger all improvement over a Fmj .....and it’s just not fair to the game we pursue


my first intention was the Nosler 220GR as their website stated it works from 1000fps to 2500fps. but someone stated that projectile just tumble all the way at subsonic speed and Sierra 2180 are way cheaper(at NZ Nosler 220GR are 1.32NZD per round, and Sierra 2180 are 0.79NZD per round).
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by mickb » 27 Jun 2019, 10:43 pm

There a more than a few negative reports on the noslers accuracy as well, several regards keyholing
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 11:05 pm

in2anity wrote:For hunting, give the hard cast a miss. Hard cast are alloys however (not 100% lead, as suggested by BR) The hard alloys poke holes and isn’t very humane (from personal experience).


I think I was pretty clear on using pure lead rather than hard-cast, so I can't see how you managed to read my suggesting otherwise. I shoot pure lead 182gn in 8x57mm.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 11:06 pm

lmlalong wrote:if using a heavy pure lead cast, what do u reckon soft cast or hard cast? i assume soft cast will expand really well, but would it leave lead foiling on rifling?

will definitely use sierra 2180 as supersonic now(bought it already :crazy: ). did some calculation: ideal twist for 220GR would be 1:10 ish. but 1:8 should be totally fine. more research to do now. hope i dont blow something up 8-)


At subsonic velocities, pure lead won't cause leading.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 11:08 pm

lmlalong wrote:what powder would u suggest to use on supersonic?


It will depend on the bullet weight you're using - AR2206H or AR2208 would be good choices.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 11:11 pm

mickb wrote:We have to be honest about the 300blk subsonic choices though. Some are match bullets, not expanding, not all are available in Australia, and looking at reviews for some of them ( nosler and the 208 grain amax) they are not getting great expansion reports in the field.


Agreed, that's why my first choice would be pure lead rather than jacketed for subsonic loads.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 27 Jun 2019, 11:13 pm

lmlalong wrote:my first intention was the Nosler 220GR as their website stated it works from 1000fps to 2500fps. but someone stated that projectile just tumble all the way at subsonic speed and Sierra 2180 are way cheaper(at NZ Nosler 220GR are 1.32NZD per round, and Sierra 2180 are 0.79NZD per round).


In the 8"-twist you have though a 220gn bullet should stabilise just fine.
I like Nosler as well, but they're expensive here also.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by in2anity » 28 Jun 2019, 12:51 pm

bladeracer wrote:I think I was pretty clear on using pure lead rather than hard-cast, so I can't see how you managed to read my suggesting otherwise.



lmlalong wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:supersonic with cast not gonna work well. was choosing from 151 cast or 220 rn for subsonic. but if i'm gonna run at 1050 ish subsonic why don't i choose 220? same speed but much heavier projectile.
i am from New Zealand, trying to build the rifle for small to medium games? i have no idea if i could do big game with this rifle.


My preference for subsonic is a pure lead bullet as heavy as you can stabilise. An 8"-twist will stabilise just about any .308" bullet you can make.
For supersonic I would use a jacketed bullet designed to deal with the size of your target. A .308 would certainly deal with big game.


if using a heavy pure lead cast, what do u reckon soft cast or hard cast? i assume soft cast will expand really well, but would it leave lead foiling on rifling?

will definitely use sierra 2180 as supersonic now(bought it already :crazy: ). did some calculation: ideal twist for 220GR would be 1:10 ish. but 1:8 should be totally fine. more research to do now. hope i dont blow something up 8-)
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2019, 12:56 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I think I was pretty clear on using pure lead rather than hard-cast, so I can't see how you managed to read my suggesting otherwise.



lmlalong wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:supersonic with cast not gonna work well. was choosing from 151 cast or 220 rn for subsonic. but if i'm gonna run at 1050 ish subsonic why don't i choose 220? same speed but much heavier projectile.
i am from New Zealand, trying to build the rifle for small to medium games? i have no idea if i could do big game with this rifle.


My preference for subsonic is a pure lead bullet as heavy as you can stabilise. An 8"-twist will stabilise just about any .308" bullet you can make.
For supersonic I would use a jacketed bullet designed to deal with the size of your target. A .308 would certainly deal with big game.


if using a heavy pure lead cast, what do u reckon soft cast or hard cast? i assume soft cast will expand really well, but would it leave lead foiling on rifling?

will definitely use sierra 2180 as supersonic now(bought it already :crazy: ). did some calculation: ideal twist for 220GR would be 1:10 ish. but 1:8 should be totally fine. more research to do now. hope i dont blow something up 8-)


You appear to be quoting the OP? At no point have I said anything like hard-cast bullets being soft or pure lead.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by in2anity » 28 Jun 2019, 1:04 pm

bladeracer wrote:You appear to be quoting the OP? At no point have I said anything like hard-cast bullets being soft or pure lead.

blade i was talking to OP when I was clarifying about hard-cast, not you - I know you were saying pure lead all along. I was never referring to what you wrote. he seemed to have his wires crossed with respect to his understanding of "soft cast" vs "hard cast" at that point. settle down :drinks: .
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2019, 1:12 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:You appear to be quoting the OP? At no point have I said anything like hard-cast bullets being soft or pure lead.

blade i was talking to OP when I was clarifying about hard-cast, not you - I know you were saying pure lead all along. I was never referring to what you wrote. he seemed to have his wires crossed with respect to his understanding of "soft cast" vs "hard cast" at that point. settle down :drinks: .


I'm settled, but sore - I'm shooting 12ga, so much pain for so little effect at the target :-)
I don't like to refer to soft lead bullets as "pure" lead, because pure is a scientific term that may not be achievable in the real world.
I saw Elvis Ammo do a test of "very soft" bullets in 300BLK, except his idea of very soft is 10BHN.

Sheet lead from Bunnings is the most readily available "pure" lead.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by in2anity » 28 Jun 2019, 2:38 pm

lmlalong wrote:what powder would u suggest to use on supersonic?


I like using AR2207/H4198/Reloader 7/IMR4198 for loads in the realms of 1600-1900fps. Doesn't seem quite as position sensitive as AR2206H.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 28 Jun 2019, 2:42 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:You appear to be quoting the OP? At no point have I said anything like hard-cast bullets being soft or pure lead.

blade i was talking to OP when I was clarifying about hard-cast, not you - I know you were saying pure lead all along. I was never referring to what you wrote. he seemed to have his wires crossed with respect to his understanding of "soft cast" vs "hard cast" at that point. settle down :drinks: .


sorry guys my bad.i thought pure lead= soft lead/hard cast.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 28 Jun 2019, 2:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:You appear to be quoting the OP? At no point have I said anything like hard-cast bullets being soft or pure lead.

blade i was talking to OP when I was clarifying about hard-cast, not you - I know you were saying pure lead all along. I was never referring to what you wrote. he seemed to have his wires crossed with respect to his understanding of "soft cast" vs "hard cast" at that point. settle down :drinks: .


I'm settled, but sore - I'm shooting 12ga, so much pain for so little effect at the target :-)
I don't like to refer to soft lead bullets as "pure" lead, because pure is a scientific term that may not be achievable in the real world.
I saw Elvis Ammo do a test of "very soft" bullets in 300BLK, except his idea of very soft is 10BHN.

Sheet lead from Bunnings is the most readily available "pure" lead.


sorry guys my bad.i thought pure lead= soft lead/hard cast.

thank you so so much. there are alot informations i learnt from your replies.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 28 Jun 2019, 3:03 pm

here is what im gonna do after everyone's help:

subsonic: 151 cast(the seller claims:the 151HP soft cast will expand to around .400" at 900fps). Trail Boss(later on will move to a heavier cast )

supersonic: Sierra #2180 220GR jacketed RN. AR2206h/AR2208(later will move to Noslers#30181)
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by Blr243 » 28 Jun 2019, 5:53 pm

I just did some maths based on your 150 weight lead at 1080 feet per second. Be aware that the energy delivered to your game animal is only about 20 per cent more than if you were useing a 22 magnum. You can google ( bullet energy calculator ) and punch in the figures yourself
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2019, 6:00 pm

lmlalong wrote:here is what im gonna do after everyone's help:

subsonic: 151 cast(the seller claims:the 151HP soft cast will expand to around .400" at 900fps). Trail Boss(later on will move to a heavier cast )

supersonic: Sierra #2180 220GR jacketed RN. AR2206h/AR2208(later will move to Noslers#30181)


I'm surprised you can buy commercially-cast soft bullets. Outside of muzzleloaders virtually all cast bullets I've seen are hard-cast. Do they say what Brinell Hardness their bullets are?
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by bladeracer » 28 Jun 2019, 6:08 pm

Blr243 wrote:I just did some maths based on your 150 weight lead at 1080 feet per second. Be aware that the energy delivered to your game animal is only about 20 per cent more than if you were useing a 22 magnum. You can google ( bullet energy calculator ) and punch in the figures yourself


WMR 30gn Vmax making 2200fps has 322ft-lb at the muzzle, 134ft-lb at 100yd and 67ft-lb at 200yd.
A 150gn cast bullet at 1080fps makes 390, 318 and 272ft-lbs at the same distances.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by lmlalong » 28 Jun 2019, 6:18 pm

bladeracer wrote:
lmlalong wrote:here is what im gonna do after everyone's help:

subsonic: 151 cast(the seller claims:the 151HP soft cast will expand to around .400" at 900fps). Trail Boss(later on will move to a heavier cast )

supersonic: Sierra #2180 220GR jacketed RN. AR2206h/AR2208(later will move to Noslers#30181)


I'm surprised you can buy commercially-cast soft bullets. Outside of muzzleloaders virtually all cast bullets I've seen are hard-cast. Do they say what Brinell Hardness their bullets are?


unfortunately he did not supply any information on the hardness reading. but this projectile have a good feedbacks from NZ reloaders community.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Jun 2019, 8:45 pm

bladeracer wrote:
WMR 30gn Vmax making 2200fps has 322ft-lb at the muzzle, 134ft-lb at 100yd and 67ft-lb at 200yd.
A 150gn cast bullet at 1080fps makes 390, 318 and 272ft-lbs at the same distances.



Well, well. Thats interesting. A 223 has about 950fbs at 100 yards. Soooo, i wonder what they are realistically capable of?
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by wanneroo » 29 Jun 2019, 4:32 am

Blr243 wrote:I just spent months of time and money doing very extensive research on how to get humane results with sub sonic 300 blk At $ 1.20 per projectile 220 grain noslers are supposed to expand at 1050 FPS.... all the copper stuff that is also soposed to work is impossible to get a hold of Australia or otherwise. One American company quoted me 7500 dollars to send me 200 copper expanding projectiles I wanted to go down this route because I was trying not to deafen my sniffer dog...I shoot close to him and he just about has a mental breakdown next to my 243. .. he was not phased at all on the last hunt when I used 300 blk subs ...but this ammo is a wounding combination on pigs and should be outlawed one this size game ...I have no doubt that with fast 125 grainers the 300 blk can perform nicely on pigs . I am selling this rifle. I have bought a 450 bushmaster and intend useing hollow point 300 grain xtp s that are designed to expand at pistol velocity......the new rifle / ammo choice also gives me 35 per cent more energy to do the job than what the 300 blk subs were giving me .......imagine a marble sized lead ball hitting a brick wall at 3000 FPS. Of course it’s going to expand or fragment. Now image a hard cast lead marble that is thrown by hand at the same wall.... you might get a tiny flat spot on one side of it .....and a much softer lead marble also thrown by hand will probably show a flat spot on one side ..... the point I’m trying to make is that at subsonic velocities bullet performance is extremely dependent on the softness of the lead and the design of the projectile ... so just grabbing a 220 grain Sierra round nose is bugger all improvement over a Fmj .....and it’s just not fair to the game we pursue


We have quite the pig infestation down south in the USA and I've not heard of people using subsonic 300 BLK on pigs. Not enough energy for that to take down a pig/hog. Subsonic 308 would render about the same results. If they are using 300 BLK it's supersonic ammo often with suppressors.

450 Bushmaster is probably a better bet. Personally I like 50 Beowulf.
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Re: Help needed for 308 subsonic load

Post by mickb » 01 Jul 2019, 3:46 pm

wanneroo wrote:
Blr243 wrote:I just spent months of time and money doing very extensive research on how to get humane results with sub sonic 300 blk At $ 1.20 per projectile 220 grain noslers are supposed to expand at 1050 FPS.... all the copper stuff that is also soposed to work is impossible to get a hold of Australia or otherwise. One American company quoted me 7500 dollars to send me 200 copper expanding projectiles I wanted to go down this route because I was trying not to deafen my sniffer dog...I shoot close to him and he just about has a mental breakdown next to my 243. .. he was not phased at all on the last hunt when I used 300 blk subs ...but this ammo is a wounding combination on pigs and should be outlawed one this size game ...I have no doubt that with fast 125 grainers the 300 blk can perform nicely on pigs . I am selling this rifle. I have bought a 450 bushmaster and intend useing hollow point 300 grain xtp s that are designed to expand at pistol velocity......the new rifle / ammo choice also gives me 35 per cent more energy to do the job than what the 300 blk subs were giving me .......imagine a marble sized lead ball hitting a brick wall at 3000 FPS. Of course it’s going to expand or fragment. Now image a hard cast lead marble that is thrown by hand at the same wall.... you might get a tiny flat spot on one side of it .....and a much softer lead marble also thrown by hand will probably show a flat spot on one side ..... the point I’m trying to make is that at subsonic velocities bullet performance is extremely dependent on the softness of the lead and the design of the projectile ... so just grabbing a 220 grain Sierra round nose is bugger all improvement over a Fmj .....and it’s just not fair to the game we pursue


We have quite the pig infestation down south in the USA and I've not heard of people using subsonic 300 BLK on pigs. Not enough energy for that to take down a pig/hog. Subsonic 308 would render about the same results. If they are using 300 BLK it's supersonic ammo often with suppressors.

450 Bushmaster is probably a better bet. Personally I like 50 Beowulf.


similar conclusion I came to after looking into subsonics .Unreliable expansion in the long bullet types for the 308 cal or difficult to get the more specialised bullets. On the other hand pistol style bullets get much better reports which would make sense as its an industry designed around low velocities that sorted out subsonic expansion decades ago. Worst case if something doesn't expand at least with a 44 or 45 etc you get some sort of hole in the animal....

Will be interesting to see what can be done with 308 cast loads.
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