Converting Brass

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: Converting Brass

Post by in2anity » 11 Jul 2019, 11:49 am

Ok thanks for the feedback JT :drinks:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 24 Aug 2019, 8:50 am

SCJ429 wrote:Give it a go JT, it is good fun and you learn a lot about drawing brass. Even if they all end up in the bin.


Have converted a few .222 cases into 300AAC. I did lose a few when sizing up, seem to have it sorted out now though. Expander die works a treat. Neck wall thickness is ok, and dummy round seemed to chamber well. Looking to make a jig for shells to make cutting them down an easier task. At present I am cutting one case at a time with a cutting disk on angle grinder. Bit rough however cutting them a bit longer and then trimming them back. Will load a few up and see how they go after firing them.
Converting .223 brass to 300AAC obviously a much easier task as previously stated as it’s an exercising of necking down as opposed to necking up with a .222 case.
Will post a few pics once I get back from work and convert a few more.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by Blr243 » 24 Aug 2019, 12:55 pm

Mini dropsaw would need a very fine blade. And slow and a good case holding technique. Most of the time people hurt themselves on a dropsaw is when they are cutting small pieces. When holding small pieces there is a school of thought that if the blade grabs and drags your hand into the blade you can just let go of the piece .......But that’s nonsense .....you can’t actually think that fast. It will drag u in and take your fingers before you know about it. A bit off topic but I thought I would share in case it might help somebody stay safe. And yes I do still have all my fingers. I need them
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by bladeracer » 25 Aug 2019, 7:08 am

JimTom wrote:Converting .223 brass to 300AAC obviously a much easier task as previously stated as it’s an exercising of necking down as opposed to necking up with a .222 case.


What do you mean by necking down instead of up? .222Rem and .223Rem are the same neck diameter - .224". you neck both up to .308" for 300BLK.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 25 Aug 2019, 7:35 am

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Converting .223 brass to 300AAC obviously a much easier task as previously stated as it’s an exercising of necking down as opposed to necking up with a .222 case.


What do you mean by necking down instead of up? .222Rem and .223Rem are the same neck diameter - .224". you neck both up to .308" for 300BLK.


I see how you come to that conclusion however when you cut the 222 brass to length, you are actually cutting through the neck which is as we know .224.
When you cut the 223 brass, you are cutting the brass behind the shoulder which is greater than .308.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 25 Aug 2019, 7:43 am

The length of the 300AAC case in the ADI load data in 1.363”. If you compare that to the specs of the 222 and 223 cases, you will see what I mean mate. It’s all to do with where the shoulder is on the case. I thought forming 300AAC from 222 and 223 cases would be the same u til I actually started doing it.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by in2anity » 25 Aug 2019, 8:55 am

JT do you feel there is any advantage/disadvantage in using 222 brass?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 25 Aug 2019, 9:36 am

in2anity wrote:JT do you feel there is any advantage/disadvantage in using 222 brass?



Not at all mate, if anything it is harder to form. Only reason I am doing it is that I have a surplus of old 222 brass. If it weren’t for that fact I would just be converting my old 223 brass if I bothered at all. At the end of the day you can buy good ADI 3000AAC brass for $65/100.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 25 Aug 2019, 9:42 am

I am doing it more out of interest sake than out of necessity mate. Gives me something new to do having not tried it before.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by in2anity » 25 Aug 2019, 1:32 pm

I'm using Jagemann brass currently - no signs of splitting, although some of the primer pockets were getting a little loose after hot lil'gun loads. I think the blk yields good case life, especially if FL resizing is avoided.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 26 Aug 2019, 2:32 pm

I have seen some of that starting to creep into local shops. Think I will stick with the ADI for the reloads, seems to be good so far, and my old converted brass for quad bike ops when brass has a tendency to be lost.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 6:24 am

For those that are interested I did manage to successfully convert the .222 brass into 300AAC. I learned a few things along the way, and now have a pretty good supply of brass for the blackout.
After cutting the brass with an angle grinder, I then annealed the brass as I found I had about 1 in 5 split when expanding if I didn’t anneal.
Next they went through an interim expander die, then through the 300AAC full length die.
Of course then the cases were trimmed to size, champfer and deburred.
Have loaded and fired a few now and have had no issues whatsoever.
In saying that I can now see why most people just convert .223 brass as it would be a far easier process. Still it was a good learning experience and I know have a healthy supply of expendable brass.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by Blr243 » 07 Oct 2019, 7:23 am

What heat source did u use for annealing. And what is an interim die ? Glad to hear the process was a success
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 8:08 am

Blr243 wrote:What heat source did u use for annealing. And what is an interim die ? Glad to hear the process was a success



Mate I just used a gas torch and LPG gas cylinder and heated them in a tray of water tipping them over when completed. First time I had ever annealed, seemed to work well. That procedure I got off this forum. Loads of great ideas and experience on here. Thanks fellas.

As for the expander die, I think the correct terminology is a universal case expander die. Basically a die with a long cone in it which can be adjusted up or down so as to vary the neck size. Wind it down and neck expansion is increased. Wind it up and the opposite happens. Was a good interim step in getting the neck from .224 to .308. With that and the annealing I think I lost 4-5 cases to splitting out of around 400.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by in2anity » 07 Oct 2019, 8:38 am

JimTom wrote:For those that are interested I did manage to successfully convert the .222 brass into 300AAC. I learned a few things along the way, and now have a pretty good supply of brass for the blackout.
After cutting the brass with an angle grinder, I then annealed the brass as I found I had about 1 in 5 split when expanding if I didn’t anneal.
Next they went through an interim expander die, then through the 300AAC full length die.
Of course then the cases were trimmed to size, champfer and deburred.
Have loaded and fired a few now and have had no issues whatsoever.
In saying that I can now see why most people just convert .223 brass as it would be a far easier process. Still it was a good learning experience and I know have a healthy supply of expendable brass.


JT you inspired me to also try forming my own from 223. I bought a 1.5kg bag of once-fired, mixed hs 223 brass from a popular online store for $40 delivered - about 150 cases, which I thought I was very reasonable. It's a mixture of ADI, OSA, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Lapua and a few other odds and ends.

I also bought a tiny dropsaw for $70 from online which functions just fine.

I anneal using a butane torch and a rotating tray of water.

An observation I've made is the brass varied a bit when it came to thickness, which was problematic with regard to headspacing. Using my Lee die, i just wasn't getting the headspace clearance I needed (i.e. the lugs were very tight to lock up).

So I bought an RCBS die which did help, but ultimately did not solve the problem. I did some more research (thanks to sungazer's tip into "shoulder bumping") and found out some ground a shell holder thinner to allow the die to drop just that tad lower.

I ground off 15thou from the shell holder, which allows for the bumping of the shoulder back just a fraction more, thus allowing all brands of brass (except Sako and Tikka) to lock up without any resistance. Neck turning is a consideration, but once fireformed, I'm a big fan of the Lee collet die which is supposed to stop runout - especially if you size three times per shell with a 120° index.

Working with the small-shouldered 300aac cartridge is really really easy - it's almost like working pistol brass. You need only the tiniest amount of lube on the shoulder to FL resize.

I've also been seating the Speer 125gr TNT pill out to 2.1" OAL because I saw a knowledgeable dude do it youtube. This is allowing me to comfortably fit in 18.4gr of 2205, and get that a bit closer to the lands. Generally, I feel a longer OAL feeds better in the RARR.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by Blr243 » 07 Oct 2019, 8:41 am

Thanks for that I googled universal expander die From the YouTube vid I watched I would tend to call it a uni flare ing die. But does not matter. I get the idea of how you did it I had a stack of 222 brass lying around after a roo plague at Cunnamulla. I will never use it. Hopefully I did not toss them out
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 8:48 am

Nice one mate. I did a search about different types of .223 brass not being suitable for converting to 300AAC due to excess wall thickness, which may have been a contributing factor to your issue when you converted.
I will see if I can dig it up and post it up here for you mate. As for the drop saw, that sounds like a much better way of cutting the brass, it is what I have witnessed when watching the YouTube videos of blokes converting the brass. I was unable to find one locally so I used angle grinder but of course this is a bit rough and leads to the cases requiring a fair bit of trimming. Being able to cut the cases a bit more precisely would alleviate this.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 8:50 am

Blr243 wrote:Thanks for that I googled universal expander die From the YouTube vid I watched I would tend to call it a uni flare ing die. But does not matter. I get the idea of how you did it I had a stack of 222 brass lying around after a roo plague at Cunnamulla. I will never use it. Hopefully I did not toss them out



Yep that’s the one mate. Works a treat.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 9:31 am

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Re: Converting Brass

Post by Blr243 » 07 Oct 2019, 11:00 am

Good info. I’m guessing that after this success you would do it all again?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by Blr243 » 07 Oct 2019, 11:04 am

I’ve actually lost the bolt from my blackout ( I would like to think that I have temporarily misplaced it in the process of separating it from my rifle during transport to a hunting location) So I will probably find it one day while digging around for something else. So any loading / development/ testing of my blackout is on a temporary hold
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 12:54 pm

Blr243 wrote:Good info. I’m guessing that after this success you would do it all again?



Mate it was worth doing it out of interest sake for sure. To be honest you can buy the brass pretty cheap as previously stated, however reloading is more of a hobby than a cost cutting exercise so yeah mate I’d happily do it all over again, plus I couldn’t bare to waste the .222 brass.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by sungazer » 07 Oct 2019, 3:11 pm

in2anity wrote:JT you inspired me to also try forming my own from 223. I bought a 1.5kg bag of once-fired, mixed hs 223 brass from a popular online store for $40 delivered - about 150 cases, which I thought I was very reasonable. It's a mixture of ADI, OSA, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Lapua and a few other odds and ends. .


I did the same when I wanted to load up some plinking rounds using some less than accurate projectiles. In the end I dont think it was a cost saving exercise certainly not a value saving exercise. When you can get the ADI virgin brass on special at $38 /100

It was certainly a learning exercise, and if I were to buy once fired brass again it would have to come at a much cheaper price % than new and the origin of the brass I would take more into account.

The brass fired by the semi autos the chambers are much larger than bolt guns and the cases get beat up on extraction far more than a bolt gun.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 07 Oct 2019, 3:48 pm

Yeah I am thinking it would want to be fairly cheap to make it a worthwhile activity if you’re after saving a few bucks. I figure it’s more an exercise of recycling old brass from other cartridges.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by in2anity » 07 Oct 2019, 6:41 pm

Neck tensions feel different among the various brands - i’m curious to see if that effects groups at all.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by bigrich » 04 May 2020, 9:18 pm

ok fellas, i'm in need of some advice . this post has been focused on converting brass 222/223 to 300 blk out , but the principles will be the same i guess . i've been converting 308 ppu brass to 358 win. i've used a 8x57 die to step up the brass in two stages. i'm using a hornady full resize 358 die for the final process, it has a long tappering expander and works very well with no splitting or malformed cases . the cases don't need trimming and are just a couple of thou under the listed minimum trim length. my question is should i anneal these reworked cases before loading and firing ? i'm thinking the neck tension should be good as i'm stretching the neck larger. anyone got any veiws or advice ?

thanks in advance, cheers :thumbsup:
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by marksman » 04 May 2020, 10:34 pm

because you have gone larger you will find the case necks are thinner and probably pretty consistent in thickness
l would anneal them at least just the once before the first firing
the shortness will stretch out in time :thumbsup:
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by bigrich » 05 May 2020, 5:26 am

marksman wrote:because you have gone larger you will find the case necks are thinner and probably pretty consistent in thickness
l would anneal them at least just the once before the first firing
the shortness will stretch out in time :thumbsup:


thanks MM, i might buy a gas torch from bunnings and use the method suggested by JT . i've heard of bunching cases together with a rubber band or tape and dipping the necks into molten lead ,as the tempreature is spot on and the lead doesn't stick . might be a idea if i get into cast for this 358 . :thumbsup:
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 05 May 2020, 5:51 am

I think it would be worth annealing them for sure mate. Like I have already eluded to, I annealed before expanding the necks, I seemed to have more success by having less split when expanding the neck.
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Re: Converting Brass

Post by JimTom » 05 May 2020, 5:52 am

Further to my last post, I have fired and reloaded that converted brass a few times now with no problems at all.
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