How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

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How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Jul 2019, 9:37 am

So, kind of curious as to how far ppl go before they give up on a projectile?

I’ve got some Speer .30’s in 168gn - I’ve tried every combination of 2209 powder in .2 to .6 over max, gone under, diff primers, diffe brass, changed length of seat...and I’ve found a recipe that’s reasonable but not great - how far do ppl go trying to get a recipe?

Difficult to answer I know - Side question - how many projectiles does one go through, to determine an accuracy node? A friend and I are going to be going thru a range of .3’s so said we should buy different 50 packs and share them out but 25 isn’t going to be enough to get through a powder test, let alone a seating depth ??
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by deanp100 » 20 Jul 2019, 9:50 am

Don’t know, but I just spent a couple of months and 5or 6 trips to the range trying to get a sako vixen varmint to shoot well. Swapped powders, loads, projectiles, primers , cases . Went fast , went slow, built up gradually , scrubbed and cleaned , checked bedding . Did everything and thought I had a dud. Swapped scopes and first group was 5 mm. Who would have thought!, .
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by nightforcenxs » 20 Jul 2019, 10:21 am

tassie you kind of answered your own question in a way. you stated you have tryed all different powder charges different brass even primers you have done what i would do to eliminate all factors some projectiles just wont shoot in guns i run the hornady zmax 168gr in my 308 tikka and get 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 200 yards if you can get a hold of some of them tassie i would recommend trying them or even a 175gr projectile. dont beat yourself up over it all the things you tryed were spot on what to do :thumbsup:
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by JimTom » 20 Jul 2019, 10:43 am

Mate if your rifle and scope are all ok then I’d say you have done just about all you can to get those particular projectiles to shoot. I would abandon them as I have done in the past with some projectiles out of my .223. My rifle just didn’t like these projectiles regardless of what I tried.
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by Stix » 20 Jul 2019, 10:44 am

Well...the last bullet i tried i rekon i did a box of 100...then double-checked the result with the next batch...& i havnt changed seating depth-thats just running at mag length less a smidge.

And this particular bullet shoots well in the rifle, & only had the one obvious node ...gees i couldnt imagine checking two or more nodes & changing brass & primers as well...
To my mind, every time you change brass you're back at the very beginning... :crazy:

In the past ive had different nodes appear & wasted hundreds of bullets & got no improvement on the first 3 shots out of the test... :crazy:

So....i rekon its a secret Tassie--& all the guys that know the secret have shares in bullet manufacturing plants...!!!


This load you have that is "reasonable"...
How big is it (with & without flyers), & how big was it initially...?

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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Jul 2019, 11:26 am

Stix wrote:Well...the last bullet i tried i rekon i did a box of 100...then double-checked the result with the next batch...& i havnt changed seating depth-thats just running at mag length less a smidge.

And this particular bullet shoots well in the rifle, & only had the one obvious node ...gees i couldnt imagine checking two or more nodes & changing brass & primers as well...
To my mind, every time you change brass you're back at the very beginning... :crazy:

In the past ive had different nodes appear & wasted hundreds of bullets & got no improvement on the first 3 shots out of the test... :crazy:

So....i rekon its a secret Tassie--& all the guys that know the secret have shares in bullet manufacturing plants...!!!


This load you have that is "reasonable"...
How big is it (with & without flyers), & how big was it initially...?

:drinks:


The load I have is 59.3 gns of ar2209 - it’s shoots 40-50mm all day and then one out of 6 will fly sideways an inch further.
Thing is - I can get factory ammo (Core-Lokt) grouping consistently inside 30 mm...
Does my head lol - good fun but confusing nonetheless.
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by TassieTiger » 20 Jul 2019, 11:27 am

nightforcenxs wrote:tassie you kind of answered your own question in a way. you stated you have tryed all different powder charges different brass even primers you have done what i would do to eliminate all factors some projectiles just wont shoot in guns i run the hornady zmax 168gr in my 308 tikka and get 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 200 yards if you can get a hold of some of them tassie i would recommend trying them or even a 175gr projectile. dont beat yourself up over it all the things you tryed were spot on what to do :thumbsup:


But how far do you go - I could try more powders, I could try all manner of aspects with other powders - or do you cut your losses at ? Stsge?
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by Stix » 20 Jul 2019, 12:03 pm

Well i dont have the answer unfortunately...

But i will say this...to me, a 50mm group is unacceptable unless its with old pulled bullets that ive loaded with trailboss for a bit of kid plinking/who's cookin the barbie/fetch me a beer kind of fun... (or i carry half dozen of these type rounds for finishers when out hunting all day).

If a bullet doesnt get an inch the first charge, i move up to middle of test & shoot another...if that doesnt hit an inch i might try another diff charge but its likely to not work so its good night nelly for that bullet.

I think you can tell by the way they print on paper--if there is no pattern, give it away...
If there is say, 2 touching, one very close, & a random just outside an inch its prob ok but something is a miss with the ammo/set-up.

Having said that, each to his own for what one deems is acceptable accuracy.

For me, if i cant be sure im going to hit a bunny in the head at 200/one inch @100, i dont want to be out hunting with that bullet...there is nothing worse than not knowing where your bullet is going when hunting...!!...simple...yet very very annoying trying to find it sometimes...!!

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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jul 2019, 12:10 pm

If your rifle likes the factory ammo then buy a box of Remington Lokt Core projectiles, fire the factory ammo off over a chrono and try getting your reloads with the Lokt Core projectiles going at the same speed.
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by Stix » 20 Jul 2019, 12:16 pm

So I start with a test accross adi spectrum in half gr increments, 20 thou off, or at mag length less 20 thou (check for feeding first/load to reliable feeding length).

If dont get anything of promise or reliable pattern within 3 or max 4 charges, give it away... (an inch-(ish)).

From there, sometimes ill do it again to be sure...say one at 100, then another at 200...

Then i load .2 & .4 above & below any potential good lookers...but load 6 of each, poss 9 of the ones i rekon are on the mark.

Then i reproduce the best ones to be sure.

I always do the fine/later testing or any at 200 with brass weighted from middle of the batch, & keep each charge with ssme weight brass.

Doesnt always work...thats why i cant get my main 22-250 any better than 30mm...you wana buy it...??

Try other bullets Tassie...
:drinks:
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by marksman » 20 Jul 2019, 12:47 pm

I do one OCW and then if there's no love I will change the recipe completely, if the rifle is sighted 15 shots
going to the next powder up or down has not improved things for me better to try another bullet and maybe weight

when I have a new barrel I do a ladder test to fireform cases and check for similar velocities and points of impact
sort of like the satterly test
I like to put a few through before testing though, usually when the barrel is not showing copper
for an example my 308 brno would not shoot 4 different types of 165gr bullet but I tried 150's and it shot them under half moa, does the same with 130gr

so if the barrel is sighted one OCW test of usually only 15 shots then move on
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by pomemax » 20 Jul 2019, 12:49 pm

TassieTiger
Just went though the same with a 7.62x39 could not hit 2 holes in same spot ( thought it was a dud ) took the sunshade off the front of the scope 5 shots touching , go figure
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jul 2019, 2:14 pm

pomemax wrote:TassieTiger
Just went though the same with a 7.62x39 could not hit 2 holes in same spot ( thought it was a dud ) took the sunshade off the front of the scope 5 shots touching , go figure


Taking the sunshade off the front of your scope had no bearing on your group size, how could it?
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jul 2019, 2:45 pm

TassieTiger wrote:
nightforcenxs wrote:But how far do you go - I could try more powders, I could try all manner of aspects with other powders - or do you cut your losses at ? Stsge?


If you cannot get it to shoot with 2209 then changing powders is not going to help. Reloader 19 will not be the answer to your prayers.

As Stix said if you change one thing then you start again. Pills, primers, powder or brass.

To confirm your rifle will shoot, get a bullet that is known for accuracy. I always fall back to the SMK if I am not sure if the rifle can shoot a decent group. I know that they are rubbish for hunting. If the rifle shoots one inch groups with Remington projectiles, why not use them? All you need to do is find the speed that gets them into your node.
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by pomemax » 20 Jul 2019, 5:42 pm

SCJ429 wrote:
pomemax wrote:TassieTiger
Just went though the same with a 7.62x39 could not hit 2 holes in same spot ( thought it was a dud ) took the sunshade off the front of the scope 5 shots touching , go figure


Taking the sunshade off the front of your scope had no bearing on your group size, how could it?

beats me i sat there for 10 min trying to figure it out
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by bigrich » 20 Jul 2019, 6:28 pm

well taz, i had a sako 308 A7 that would not reliably shoot 150 gn projectiles. especially hornady sst's . i tried primers, powders , COL, everything . on a whim i tried 165 gn speer soft point boat tails and it made one hole @100 from then on ! try a different projectile weight and see how you go . some calibers don't seem that affected by diffferent brass or bullet brands , my 222 being the example . once you've given things a reasonable go,with negative results, your better off accepting that some times some rifles don't like a particular bullet style or weight . it'll do your head in if you let it . :crazy: try a different bullet mate i think i recall stix having issues with his 7-08 and a particular bullet a while ago ?

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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by duncan61 » 20 Jul 2019, 9:58 pm

I would like to share my thoughts on this.I bought a 7mm Rem Mag to do long distance target shooting and of the 5000 plus roos I harvested over 13 years I probably did less than 100 with the 7mm.For hunting and culling I loaded 100 gn Sierra game kings that do about 3300 fps but I would not try to shoot at a range at 500-600.My target load is 168gn Matchkings with 64gn 2213sc which will do 1000 metres easy.I am assuming you are playing with your new Howa in 300 Win mag and I feel you are under feeding it.Spend a few dollars and get 210 Matchkings and use the ADI data with 2209 62 gns looks to be a good start all this brass weighing and primer changing is not going to do poop if you are using a bullet that belongs in a 30/30.You got a big long range rifle feed it right and see what happens.With match grade ammo they should all be touching at 100.If you ever get to a long range shoot it is normally 2 sighters then 10 detail twice in one day.You will have a sore shoulder and cheek no matter who you are.You are putting 91 unleaded in your ferrari you goose
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by duncan61 » 20 Jul 2019, 10:30 pm

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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Jul 2019, 4:12 am

duncan61 wrote:I would like to share my thoughts on this.I bought a 7mm Rem Mag to do long distance target shooting and of the 5000 plus roos I harvested over 13 years I probably did less than 100 with the 7mm.For hunting and culling I loaded 100 gn Sierra game kings that do about 3300 fps but I would not try to shoot at a range at 500-600.My target load is 168gn Matchkings with 64gn 2213sc which will do 1000 metres easy.I am assuming you are playing with your new Howa in 300 Win mag and I feel you are under feeding it.Spend a few dollars and get 210 Matchkings and use the ADI data with 2209 62 gns looks to be a good start all this brass weighing and primer changing is not going to do poop if you are using a bullet that belongs in a 30/30.You got a big long range rifle feed it right and see what happens.With match grade ammo they should all be touching at 100.If you ever get to a long range shoot it is normally 2 sighters then 10 detail twice in one day.You will have a sore shoulder and cheek no matter who you are.You are putting 91 unleaded in your ferrari you goose


Cheers mate - I’m trying to lock down a 06 load. I’ve got ocd and I need to have a go-to 3006 load sorted, before I can start messing up my loading bench with 300wm stuff - I stick to one rifle, powder, die set loaded, etc on my little bench, for one caliber before moving on to another - otherwise I get lost.
There’s some good advice on here and it might be time to move on - which will take some time..I really, really need a chrono as per SC...I’m at that point I think where guesswork won’t cut it for FPS and as SC said - match the Core-Lokt speed to start with...
Weird thing was, my reasonable load started off so promising...
And I’ll be good to my 300 - that’s why I want to square this away, so I can put my full attention into developing that.
Cheers for replies. It’s interesting hearing others stories...saw a guy tighten the action screws and loosen a scope ring, of his mates rifle once whilst he was taking a leak...quite entertaining lol
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by duncan61 » 21 Jul 2019, 10:38 pm

At my best mates funeral last year the Celebrant stated its not the date he was born or the date he died its the dates in the middle that count and reloading is like that.I am confident every one who has done it has made the heaviest loads cos they will be great and the fastest loads with the lightest pills cos you have to do 4000 fps plus and the reality is if you need a heavier bullet you need a larger chamber so good luck with the experimenting.My.222 has 50gn PSP Winchesters cos they cost 17 cents each yet when I first started I was obsessed with accuracy and purchased 52gn Matchkings and man they went through the same hole at 50 metres when I vice mounted the rifle and it is a lightweight 22 inch S/S barrel you could do knitting with.You will find that perfect combination but being a new toy you will still seek more.Its all part of the fun
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Re: How far do you go - b4 ruling out a projectile ?

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jul 2019, 12:11 am

TassieTiger wrote:So, kind of curious as to how far ppl go before they give up on a projectile?

I’ve got some Speer .30’s in 168gn - I’ve tried every combination of 2209 powder in .2 to .6 over max, gone under, diff primers, different brass, changed length of seat...and I’ve found a recipe that’s reasonable but not great - how far do ppl go trying to get a recipe?

Difficult to answer I know - Side question - how many projectiles does one go through, to determine an accuracy node? A friend and I are going to be going thru a range of .3’s so said we should buy different 50 packs and share them out but 25 isn’t going to be enough to get through a powder test, let alone a seating depth ??


It wouldn't surprise me to burn a 100 box during load development, but sometimes you hit a good enough load very early. If I were going to chase down the absolute best accuracy the bullet can produce though I could see it needing a lot more than 100 bullets. I'm pretty happy with anything that will consistently hold MoA or better at 100m under field conditions. If you're not seeing any consistency early on it might be worth trying a different powder.

What sort of group size are you chasing?
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