Grinding match ammo tips for consistency

[hoogle]

G'day,

I'm hoping for a little feed back on tidying up some bullet tips for consistency.

I'm sitting here at the moment with a box of Nosler Custom Comps, and looking at the tips there's a bit of inconsistency throughout the lot.

They're hollow points, and looking at the tips some are flatter than others, and some have a slight hook of copper coming up and towards the centre of the bullet (if that makes sense).

Seems like it would be little effort to use a dremel or whatever and a cutting disc and basically dab the top of the bullets to even them all.

Sound reasonable? Waste of time? Going to muck anything up by doing this?

Thanks.

[Chronos]

Are you competing at a high level in benchrest matches at 1000m?

If not, I'm not sure if bother. A mate and I did a bunch of 6.5 and 7mm match bullets in a widen bullet pointer and Wilson meplat uniformer and both experienced a drop in accuracy.

You could load up some standard billets and some with filed points and shoot them in a comparison but to be honest unless you're shooting groups in the teens (.10-.20" groups) I doubt you'd notice any difference

Chronos

[hoogle]

Hey mate,

Not doing any sort of competition shoot and not shooting anywhere near 1,000 metres.

300 or 400 metre shooting maximum. This is just for an accurate load at the range out of a hunting rifle.

For fun and improvement, nothing too serious.

For the sake of a second with the Dremel I wondered if it would do any good was all.

[Blackened]

I'm with Chronos... I wouldn't bother.

You're train of thought is right in that uniforming the tips of the bullets would improve their consistency in theory.

In the real world though I seriously doubt there will be any appreciable difference. As above, you need to be shooting ultra accuracy already for such a minor modification to make a change.

Shooting your hunting rifle, taking half a mm off of your 1" group obviously isn't going to be anything to get excited about.

[Bills Shed]

The tip is called the meplat and there is a host of meplat Uniforming tools out there. If you are a BR shooter it may pay off but for general hunting I doubt you will see a difference. I have never done it, but I am no BR shooter either. Enjoy!

http://www.6mmbr.com/MCRMeplat.html

Here is a good write up

[Apollo]

300 or 400 metre shooting maximum. This is just for an accurate load at the range out of a hunting rifle.

If you are only ever going to shoot at 3-400m out of a hunting rifle then you would be wasting your time playing with bullet tips. In fact if you attack them with a dremel or anything like that you will most likely make matters even worse than you aim for.

Yes, the Tip of a Bullet is called the Meplat and Meplat Trimming is done by long range target shooters for consistancy. Accuracy is probably not quite the correct word for the result as the bullet design is more the factor in accuracy as well as quality of production.

Meplat trimming actually reduces the Ballistic Coefficiency of a bullet so it in fact makes it worse than it's initial design. Some long range target shooters also Point the Meplat in an effort to regain the lost BC due to trimming. How effective this actually is debatable and most do not bother. Unless you shoot an accurate Custom Target Rifle at long distance, say 500m to much further then you will see little if any improvement.

I am the "mate" that Chronos mentioned and we spent quite some time trimming meplats in a Wilson Trimmer for VERY minimal material removal and the least loss of BC. Then we pointed bullets using the Whidden Bullet Pointing Dies. In my case the bullets were Berger 6.5mm 130gr VLD Target for use in my Custom Stolle 6.5x47 Lapua target rifle and initial testing was done at 500 metres. My bullets were also sorted for weight in 0.1gr lots and also Ogive length.

Under good conditions the initial results showed a definite increase in the point of impact of groups shot. I have done further tests when I get the chance at ideal conditions over the same 500m and would say not only the POI change but I feel there is an improvement in consistancy of groups shot and a reduction of group size slightly but there has not been enough long term testing done to determine what factor has made the improvement to justify all the time and effort involved. Also to consider is the shooter at that time so may be having a better day than normal. It's pretty hard to pin down when you are shooting 5 shot groups at 500m of around 50mm or better.

For your purpose you are probably better off spending money on better quality bullets or if you don't like the looks of the hollow points then use something like a ballistic tip bullet which are far more consistant in their tip shape.

[Joom]

If not, I'm not sure if bother. A mate and I did a bunch of 6.5 and 7mm match bullets in a widen bullet pointer and Wilson meplat uniformer and both experienced a drop in accuracy.

Geez that would be disappointing after all that effort

[Chronos]

If not, I'm not sure if bother. A mate and I did a bunch of 6.5 and 7mm match bullets in a widen bullet pointer and Wilson meplat uniformer and both experienced a drop in accuracy.

Geez that would be disappointing after all that effort

This was the initial effect and as Apollo said more testing was required to develop loads with these bullets

Chronos

[Apollo]

If not, I'm not sure if bother. A mate and I did a bunch of 6.5 and 7mm match bullets in a widen bullet pointer and Wilson meplat uniformer and both experienced a drop in accuracy.

Geez that would be disappointing after all that effort

Yes, our initial testing was a little disappointing after the amount of time and money spent BUT, it has been well proven by many long range target shooters that the effort does pay off. How well I'm yet to prove to myself.

The trimming and pointing has upset the load I developed for my match rifle which was quite capable in producing less than 1/4" 5 shot groups at 200 yards even by different experienced shooters. That's correct 1/8th MOA or better accuracy as required to be competative.

Getting the range setup for perfect load testing conditions when one has time available isn't that easy and I have no intention of wasting barrel wear unless it is well worth the outcome so testing is still incomplete. In my case that will happen in the next couple of months when typical ideal weather conditions happen, being cool little to no wind stable conditions for most of many days / weeks.

I also shoot 100, 200 & 300m Benchrest and at present fine tuning two 30BR riflles using 115gr Flat Base Bullets. As mentioned earlier for distances under say 400m there is no useful purpose in touching these bullets for this type of distance. It simply has no affect on accuracy at short distance. Weight and Ogive sorting yes but no more than that.

[Rakk]

I'd say more time behind the trigger would get your more possible results than all that fuss over the bullets.

[Apollo]

BTW....

Chronos has some photos somewhere of the difference in POI of Meplat Trimmed and Standard target bullets shot at the same aiming point on our 500 metre target.

[Aster]

Let's see 'em Chronos

[Apollo]

Let's see 'em Chronos

Plus the one where you hit the 100mm square Bisalloy Plate at 500 metres with your first attempt....even though the plate was partly hidden behind a blackberry bush....!!!!

[Streamline]

Got lucky... He was just aiming for the bush

[Chronos]

ok fellas, i've sorted through all the photos from my old phone and found some pics

the pics aren't great but hope youll get the idea

here is two Berger 180gr Hybrids, on the right is one meplat trimmed and on the left pointed as well, i think we overdid the pointing because of the obviuos transition from the shape to the point



upon looking at the pics i'm thinking i was wrong in saying the uniforming and pointing reduced accuracy. here are the two test groups, on the left 5 shots using 7mm 180gr hybrids straight from the box, on the right the same bullet and load but with the bullets uniformed meplats and pointed

shot at 500m from a tikka T3 with a 28" Tobler barrel, .284w 1:8.5" twist, gunworx laminated BR stock, March 5-50X56 tactical scope



this group, (shown sideways) measured around 4" but with quite a lot of vertical



this group with the pointed bullets, a bit better at 3.3" and less vertical. i can't remember the conditions but it's fair to say the 180gr high BC 7mm doing 2750fps should buck it a bit



Chronos

PS: here's the steel gong, my mate was nice enough to give me first shot on his new toy, as Apollo said it's about 100mm square, again at 500m with a 180gr Hybrid



i had the luxury of three sighters first shown here



Don't worry old mate Apollo's no slouch either, here's his 5 shot group at 500m i recon that groups got to measure under 2 1/2" (excuse my 7mm hole high right on the target)

[RDobber]

3" is some fine shooting for 500m.

[hoogle]

Thanks for taking the time to post the photos and all the info Chronos and Apollo. That's awesome.

Really appreciated it.

[Apollo]

Thanks for taking the time to post the photos and all the info Chronos and Apollo. That's awesome.

Really appreciated it.

Thanks Chronos, I knew you had them somewhere. I'll have to see if I have some of my 6.5mm attempts, even yours too like the 0.215" 5 shot group at near 200 yards.

I'm really sorry to have headed this thread off topic but the main point is.....

Unless you have a Firearm and YOU are good enough to pick slight changes in how you prepare you reloads to shoot at even 300 metres and be within less than 1/2 MOA then forget it playing with bullet tips.

To the OP I'm really sorry but attacking a "Tip" with a Gremel Tool is just not on......

You can see the Groups that Chronos posted. I can see the difference and that difference continued... tighter group with less vertical. I'm sure there was another where the difference was about 150mm in vertical for the whole group.....maybe I'm wrong and my old age getting worse for the memory.

[Aster]

I think we overdid the pointing because of the obviuos transition from the shape to the point

Not something I've played with... Is there any flexibility to adjust the angle of the point you make? Or is it just a matter of how much force you apply to the bullet with a fixed bullet pointer?

[Apollo]

Not something I've played with... Is there any flexibility to adjust the angle of the point you make? Or is it just a matter of how much force you apply to the bullet with a fixed bullet pointer?

Not that many general target shooters do play with Meplat Trimming &/or Bullet Pointing.

Have a read of the Whidden Gunworks FAQ.

http://www.whiddengunworks.net/pointingdiefaq.html

In general the improvement in accuracy possible is just 5% but that can be a big advantage in a competition.

The angle of the point is fixed by the shape of the pointing die. How much you can achieve in making a point is adjusted by the micrometer adjustment to set the force applied to the meplat but the biggest factor of how pointy you can get the point is determined by the bullet jacket thickness.

The 7mm ones done for Chronos as he mentioned may have gone a fraction too far and caused a very slight bulge in the jacket but as John Whidden quotes on his sight it has not been proven that this slight bulge has any adverse affect on accuracy achieved compared to what he considers a perfect pointing job.

I have found some of my photos from showing virgin bullets to meplat trimmed then pointed plus a few of the equipment used. Got a bit on my plate at present and travelling a bit slow due to injuries but in the next day or two I'll put these up in a series showing the before and after story plus the gear used. I hope it is of interest even to those that don't want to go to the expense of time and money but at least should show what is possible.

I know that those I know that shoot 500m and 1,000yards Benchrest do at least trim meplats and that gives them the wins that keeps them at the top of their competition. Some go much further and even sort their bullets using ultrasound to check jacket thickness uniformity and balance. Can't remember the exact name of the machine they use at this time. Being at the top of your game isn't that easy and I know I'll never be in their class of consistantly winning national competitions but getting close would be nice to achieve one day.

[Apollo]

Just a little bit more on "grinding tips" ...

An interesting read for those interested in improving accuracy at long distance.

http://www.6mmbr.com/bulletpointer.html

[Aster]

In general the improvement in accuracy possible is just 5% but that can be a big advantage in a competition.

Hey, 5% is still 5%.

If you've got the time/motivation to do the work for the gain, more power to you.

[Aster]

Some go much further and even sort their bullets using ultrasound to check jacket thickness uniformity and balance.

Ok, that I definitely don't have the time or motivation to do