20 cal Vmax/Zmax... ...

[Stix]

Anyone use these 20 cal Vmax &/or Zmax bullets regularly...?
32 or 40 grain...
Particularly for hunting...?

If so...anyone have any issues with them...?
Such as unexplained misses or way off POA impacts,... or the occasional hole not appearing in a target...?

[bladeracer]

Anyone use these 20 cal Vmax &/or Zmax bullets regularly...?
32 or 40 grain...
Particularly for hunting...?

If so...anyone have any issues with them...?
Such as unexplained misses or way off POA impacts,... or the occasional hole not appearing in a target...?

I'm into my third box of 500 ZMax, and use the VMax as well. Both are an excellent varmint bullet for me, very accurate, makes a mess of foxes at any velocity from 2400fps to 4000fps.
Never had one disappear, .204 twist rates are fairly relaxed, but I've had an occasional bullet hit something en-route and vaporise before the target - wire fences are a pain.

The 39gn TNT and Blitzking, and 40gn VMax are generally considered to be the optimum bullets in .204, but I prefer the 24gn NTX. If I want a heavier bullet I'll use the .223 or .243.

[Stix]

Yes they are good bullets...the 40 Vmax are very accurate in my sporter barrel tikka.

However, im convinced im getting jackets de-laminate from the core--or somethings going on...

Between 32Zmax & 40 Vmax, ive had several misses & miss-hits, & along with the strange sound of the bullet in flight, im convinced its the bullet coming apart...

[bladeracer]

Yes they are good bullets...the 40 Vmax are very accurate in my sporter barrel tikka.

However, im convinced im getting jackets de-laminate from the core--or somethings going on...

Between 32Zmax & 40 Vmax, ive had several misses & miss-hits, & along with the strange sound of the bullet in flight, im convinced its the bullet coming apart...

If it is it'll be close to the muzzle as that where it's both revolving the fastest, and just been released from confinement.
I did have two shots with the 24gn at 300m that both missed the same fox, without digging any holes in the vicinity. I determined that the bullets had most likely exploded on some bracken or the fence this side of Ol'Red. He noticed both so he must've been aware that something was going on close by, they've never seemed interested at all in the sound of the shot at that range.

If you're shooting targets, maybe set up a camera just behind looking down range, you might manage to pick up the puff of dust as it lets go, although 32gns of dust is not a lot to see. I had quite a few (like more than a dozen in a session) 52gn .224" bullets evaporate due to extremely high RPM from my .223 but I never noticed any puff from those. Or you could try setting up large sheets of paper around the shot path maybe ten meters down range to see if you find any shrapnel damage to indicate a bullet behaving badly.

[Stix]

Yea good idea Blade...

Time is however my enemy...
If i lived on a farm id be ok...but i dont.

I do have evidence of what you're suggesting any way...

Ill post an example up later...
It is dead animal based evidence however...in these cases where unfortunately the animal is both the target & your suggested large peice of paper.
And im takling big misses--yea that open for jokes, but that aside, hearing odd fluttery & extended bullet flight along with hitting the animal 16"-18" from POA is not a pulled shot.

And yes--it is, as best i can tell, mostly stsrting from the muzzle, so no doubt happening either in the barrel, or immediately on exit as you suggest.

Ill post up an example later when home...

[bladeracer]

Yea good idea Blade...

Time is however my enemy...
If i lived on a farm id be ok...but i dont.

I do have evidence of what you're suggesting any way...

Ill post an example up later...
It is dead animal based evidence however...in these cases where unfortunately the animal is both the target & your suggested large peice of paper.
And im takling big misses--yea that open for jokes, but that aside, hearing odd fluttery & extended bullet flight along with hitting the animal 16"-18" from POA is not a pulled shot.

And yes--it is, as best i can tell, mostly stsrting from the muzzle, so no doubt happening either in the barrel, or immediately on exit as you suggest.

Ill post up an example later when home...

What twist rate is your barrel and what velocity are you pushing the bullet?
My Ruger American Predator is 12"-twist, and I've clocked the ZMax up to 4000fps, which is making 240,000RPM.
The .223 Predator is 8"-twist and was spinning the 52gn bullet to over 300,000RPM. At 27gn of AR2206H all five bullets vapourised, but 55gn RooMax is doing 3350fps on the same charge.
I suppose I could try paper-patching some 32gn ZMax and try them in the .223, might be able to get them to 3900fps or 350,000RPM, which should blow them up if anything will.

[Stix]

Cant be sure of twist...never measured it.

Very mild loads...only 3600ish for 32gr'rs

[bladeracer]

Cant be sure of twist...never measured it.

Very mild loads...only 3600ish for 32gr'rs

Even a 10"-twist is only making about 260,000RPM at that speed. Unless your rifling is very sharp perhaps and virtually cutting the jacket into pieces, or possibly your seating process is damaging the jacket in some way?

[Blr243]

When I saw the WIRE FENCES ARE A PAIN it reminded me of one I hit with a soft point 222 and broke the wire ( it still killed the roo ten metres further on. ) has anyone else ever hit a wire so spot on that it broke rather than deflected ? Then I had to go fix the fence

[bladeracer]

When I saw the WIRE FENCES ARE A PAIN it reminded me of one I hit with a soft point 222 and broke the wire ( it still killed the roo ten metres further on. ) has anyone else ever hit a wire so spot on that it broke rather than deflected ? Then I had to go fix the fence

Not that I can recall, great shooting!

[SCJ429]

Cant be sure of twist...never measured it.

Very mild loads...only 3600ish for 32gr'rs

Your Tikka would be the same twist as my Sako, 1:12. I have shot the Vmax out at 500 and everyone arrived on time. I push them as hard as I can but RPM is not a problem.

[Stix]

Ah yes...this next exsmple of a fox could be a fence...
Ill have to check it out next time im on that farm...but im sure i was well elevated shooting over fence...

However, this fox was laying down, but upright (i mean alert/as in not relaxed--seemed attentive to something other than myself)...
It was facing/orientated to my 8 o'clock...

I was elevated, & the fox was laying on side of hill, just 5m up other side of washout/valley...(im shooting across a valley).

I didnt waste too much time, a comfortable shot over window rest with car off at only 125 yds...Put the X hairs just north of the white to orange fur line, trying to squeeze the bullet into its chest just on front edge of facing shoulder.

Very prominant 'pop' & i was already dreading skinning it out... (it was late & i was on my way to bed when i saw the eyes).

Anyway...to our shock, it got up flipped about... then ran towards me,...then took off up hill into heavy thick mallee...
Looked for 15 mins but no luck...

Found it next day by chance--only 10 metres from initial impact.

You can see the shoulder wound--but that is just superficial only pushing a hole in skin...didnt even reach the scapula...

So the pop was its back leg...& that shock must have killed it...

2019-09-12 18.05.35.jpg (710.84 KiB) Viewed 3341 times

Shoulder wound once undressed...can see the fur pushed into muscle...i guess this was jacket...although didnt find any fragments...

Shoulder...

2019-09-12 18.25.31.jpg (168.69 KiB) Viewed 3341 times

Inside of shoulder...clean as a whistle...

Inside shoulder...

2019-09-12 18.26.34.jpg (354.64 KiB) Viewed 3341 times

Back leg...what a mess...

Impact...

2019-09-12 18.27.45.jpg (185.48 KiB) Viewed 3341 times

I might not be a benchrest champ...but i didnt "miss" by 18" at only 120 odd yds...

Ive had clean misses out to 200 from very unmissable comfortable shots on heavy bag over bonnet...& had roos hit where they are not meant to be hit...all wounds at similar distance of 18"-24"-ish from POA, however this is the only one ive had thats away windage--all others are low...so maybe this example could be fence--however there were no busted fence wires & as i said im sure i was well above the fence...

[bladeracer]

Ah yes...this next exsmple of a fox could be a fence...
Ill have to check it out next time im on that farm...but im sure i was well elevated shooting over fence...

However, this fox was laying down, but upright (i mean alert/as in not relaxed--seemed attentive to something other than myself)...
It was facing/orientated to my 8 o'clock...

I was elevated, & the fox was laying on side of hill, just 5m up other side of washout/valley...(im shooting across a valley).

I didnt waste too much time, a comfortable shot over window rest with car off at only 125 yds...Put the X hairs just north of the white to orange fur line, trying to squeeze the bullet into its chest just on front edge of facing shoulder.

Very prominant 'pop' & i was already dreading skinning it out... (it was late & i was on my way to bed when i saw the eyes).

Anyway...to our shock, it got up flipped about... then ran towards me,...then took off up hill into heavy thick mallee...
Looked for 15 mins but no luck...

Found it next day by chance--only 10 metres from initial impact.

You can see the shoulder wound--but that is just superficial only pushing a hole in skin...didnt even reach the scapula...

So the pop was its back leg...& that shock must have killed it...

2019-09-12 18.05.35.jpg

Shoulder wound once undressed...can see the fur pushed into muscle...i guess this was jacket...although didnt find any fragments...

2019-09-12 18.25.31.jpg

Inside of shoulder...clean as a whistle...

2019-09-12 18.26.34.jpg

Back leg...what a mess...

2019-09-12 18.27.45.jpg

I might not be a benchrest champ...but i didnt "miss" by 18" at only 120 odd yds...

Ive had clean misses out to 200 from very unmissable comfortable shots on heavy bag over bonnet...& had roos hit where they are not meant to be hit...all wounds at similar distance of 18"-24"-ish from POA, however this is the only one ive had thats away windage--all others are low...so maybe this example could be fence--however there were no busted fence wires & as i said im sure i was well above the fence...

Bugger, shame when you get a result like that.
I doubt it was the bullet coming apart in flight on its own, not a hundred meters down range. I would have to guess the bullet has hit something near the fox and broken up, the main mass hitting the leg, a fragment hitting the shoulder. The damage to the leg indicates it still had plenty of go left in it so it didn't start breaking up early on. Was there anything on your side of him that could've tagged the bullet, probably not more than five or tens meters from the fox? If it hit bracken it likely would've smashed that up also, so it might not be an obvious barrier.

[Stix]

Only a fence between me n fox...fairly decent sloping land though with no trees between us...
Maybe it did clip a wire...

But ive had that result numerous times...& as i said its usually a drastic vertical bullet drop with notable long flight time-- & with nothing between me & target...

For example...ive had 3 shots on a mob at say 150...through the scope the second shot hasnt hit the head & he hopped away,...(so i thought)...wasnt a bad or hard shot... ..that second shot sounds like a 3D/surround sound war movie effect of an incoming fluttery mortar... so i divert my attention to the next one sitting & pop him...
I get out to process the 2 roos, & find 3...2 head shots & one shot high in the chest...

[bladeracer]

Only a fence between me n fox...fairly decent sloping land though with no trees between us...
Maybe it did clip a wire...

But ive had that result numerous times...& as i said its usually a drastic vertical bullet drop with notable long flight time-- & with nothing between me & target...

For example...ive had 3 shots on a mob at say 150...through the scope the second shot hasnt hit the head & he hopped away,...(so i thought)...wasnt a bad or hard shot... ..that second shot sounds like a 3D/surround sound war movie effect of an incoming fluttery mortar... so i divert my attention to the next one sitting & pop him...
I get out to process the 2 roos, & find 3...2 head shots & one shot high in the chest...

The sound probably indicates a deformed bullet that's bounced off something.

[Stix]

Only a fence between me n fox...fairly decent sloping land though with no trees between us...
Maybe it did clip a wire...

But ive had that result numerous times...& as i said its usually a drastic vertical bullet drop with notable long flight time-- & with nothing between me & target...

For example...ive had 3 shots on a mob at say 150...through the scope the second shot hasnt hit the head & he hopped away,...(so i thought)...wasnt a bad or hard shot... ..that second shot sounds like a 3D/surround sound war movie effect of an incoming fluttery mortar... so i divert my attention to the next one sitting & pop him...
I get out to process the 2 roos, & find 3...2 head shots & one shot high in the chest...

The sound probably indicates a deformed bullet that's bounced off something.

The sound is from muzzle for entire flight...
Nothing in between rifle & target to hit...

[bladeracer]

Only a fence between me n fox...fairly decent sloping land though with no trees between us...
Maybe it did clip a wire...

But ive had that result numerous times...& as i said its usually a drastic vertical bullet drop with notable long flight time-- & with nothing between me & target...

For example...ive had 3 shots on a mob at say 150...through the scope the second shot hasnt hit the head & he hopped away,...(so i thought)...wasnt a bad or hard shot... ..that second shot sounds like a 3D/surround sound war movie effect of an incoming fluttery mortar... so i divert my attention to the next one sitting & pop him...
I get out to process the 2 roos, & find 3...2 head shots & one shot high in the chest...

The sound probably indicates a deformed bullet that's bounced off something.

The sound is from muzzle for entire flight...
Nothing in between rifle & target to hit...

I'd be looking at a damaged jacket then, during feeding or loading, of if you have a muzzle device try removing it. I would expect bearing surface damage to iron out in the bore, so maybe during seating it might be shaving some copper around the bottom edge of the bullet.

[Cooper]

The only problem I've had with my 204 other than the 40gr Vmax not stablising in my barrel was with the Lee bullet seating die chipping a little bit off the 32gr Zmax tip. It wouldn't do it all the time and I'm not sure if it had any effect or not. It was improved polishing the die (seating stem). In the end I switched to an RCBS seating die. Only went with the RCBS because I had one as part full length sizing kit.

[marksman]

Cooper usually when what you are explaining is happening to the tip of your bullet the tip is hitting inside the seating stem
the fix is to drill the hole out a bit deeper then polish
where you see a problem is in run out, once you fix the die you should be getting better accuracy

[Cooper]

Cooper usually when what you are explaining is happening to the tip of your bullet the tip is hitting inside the seating stem
the fix is to drill the hole out a bit deeper then polish
where you see a problem is in run out, once you fix the die you should be getting better accuracy

Thanks Marksman. I understand what your saying. The tip is bottoming out in the seating steam before making contact on the bullet Ogive.
This is not what was happening in my case. I think... the tip was making contact on the edge of the die ( 32 Z max are flat base) and catching the edge of the seating stem and taking a chip off the Ballistic tip.

It got better after I smoothed the edge off. But didn’t do it every round even in the beginning when I first notice the problem. In the end I just swap dies and the problem went away completely.