Fire forming Brass Cases

[Stix]

Attention all accuracy driven brass batching blokes & blokette's...

I need to form some cases (250 of them) & dont want to do all of them with bullets...(i will do some of them with bullets--maybe 50-100, but not all 250 of them)

Is there another way of getting enough pressure in a case to form it other than wasting that many bullets (money) & maybe even that much barrel life...?

Im really keen to hear any proven safe ways of achieving chamber formed cases...

Thanks in advance...

[Blr243]

Sure. Mate. I can lend you my hand operated bicycle pump that I bought from big w ......this is the sort of madness you can expect from me when I’m in between hunting trips

[SCJ429]

The best way to do it is with hydraulic case forming dies, they get them within a few percent of your chamber shape. Even Hornady make some. What wildcat are you running with?

[TassieTiger]

Attention all accuracy driven brass batching blokes & blokette's...

I need to form some cases (250 of them) & dont want to do all of them with bullets...(i will do some of them with bullets--maybe 50-100, but not all 250 of them)

Is there another way of getting enough pressure in a case to form it other than wasting that many bullets (money) & maybe even that much barrel life...?

Im really keen to hear any proven safe ways of achieving chamber formed cases...

Thanks in advance...

Mate - if you do different processes or 100 with bullets and 100 with something else, won’t you end up with different shaped cases?
I know what you mean though RE volume of powder : projectiles : primers - it seems somewhat wasteful to get that last % but Marksman linked me in to a you tube video RE case pressures and it completely changed my ideas RE case prep. I’ll see if I can find it. It’s amazing the difference - more so that seating depth due to pressure spikes...

Here it is - a little long but WELL worth it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Md50fFCeQJE&t=316s

[Stix]

Sure. Mate. I can lend you my hand operated bicycle pump that I bought from big w ......this is the sort of madness you can expect from me when I’m in between hunting trips

Sadly...I understand...

[Stix]

The best way to do it is with hydraulic case forming dies, they get them within a few percent of your chamber shape. Even Hornady make some. What wildcat are you running with?

Ok...
Its not a wildcat...just an off the shelf factory chambered rifle-(a little favourite of ours scj)-new barrel; ...(ok...its that rifle i got that wasnt new--got it replaced & scoped the barel & its like a polished bit of granite in there... --but ill update that later)...& got new brass that id like to batch by volume....

I purchased what i was led to believe was batched weight sorted & fully prepped brass...but alas, the dealer was lying--if id have turned the bag over in the shop id have seen that its not this at all..!!!...but i couldnt deal with the angst of being treated like a crim by confronting the dealer as to why i got bull-sh1tted to again, not to mention the time wasted in going back there.

So it is that i currently have very badly blistered & strangely, painfully numb finger & thumb from doing flash holes in just 100 of these cases...(the amount of brass being removed from the burr inside the case is amazing--up to 1/10th a grain reading per case on cheap scales... )...
ive still got 150 to go, then its primer pockets, sizing & trimming...(big deflating sigh)

The weight difference between the few cases i weighed is quite large, so id like to form these & try to get a couple of really good batches in lots of 50 by volume, & use the others as plinking trailboss cases...& I thought it'd be better to have the case formed while sitting central in the chamber as happens with a jammed bullet, but without using bullets...(i dont mind using powder, but bullets are expensive for a porper like me...)

I figured shooting off 50 weight sorted cases-(maybe 100) to run in the barrel & get a basic case volume & load will be ok--but not 250 of em...

Just thought id ask & wade through all the lectures from people about how they can head shoot rabbits at 15km with any size & weight case bullet & powder & hopefully get some answers...

What do you suggest...

[SCJ429]

I am not one for fussing too much with brass but using Lapua makes it much easier. With the 204 I had heaps of Hornady brass so I use it. I admit it is not the best but after trimming I picked out 50 that were close in weight and I could get groups in the low .2s and an ES under 10.

Unless your rifle is a competition rig with a match barrel and you want to keep the round count down I would just fire the brass while practicing or hunting. After that trim and neck turn if that is what you like to do. From then on I use a bushing die or collet die and the brass should be good for 10 to 20 firings.

There is a guy called Froggy in the US who did an interview called Bugholes from a Bipod. Read what he says about concentricity and neck tension. These two things effect accuracy more that other factors. I concentrate my efforts there.

[SCJ429]

Here is the linky.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/shootin ... rom-bipod/

[bladeracer]

Attention all accuracy driven brass batching blokes & blokette's...

I need to form some cases (250 of them) & dont want to do all of them with bullets...(i will do some of them with bullets--maybe 50-100, but not all 250 of them)

Is there another way of getting enough pressure in a case to form it other than wasting that many bullets (money) & maybe even that much barrel life...?

Im really keen to hear any proven safe ways of achieving chamber formed cases...

Thanks in advance...

Mate - if you do different processes or 100 with bullets and 100 with something else, won’t you end up with different shaped cases?
I know what you mean though RE volume of powder : projectiles : primers - it seems somewhat wasteful to get that last % but Marksman linked me in to a you tube video RE case pressures and it completely changed my ideas RE case prep. I’ll see if I can find it. It’s amazing the difference - more so that seating depth due to pressure spikes...

Here it is - a little long but WELL worth it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Md50fFCeQJE&t=316s

I found similar difference in velocities between FLS and neck-sized brass myself.

[Oldbloke]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

[marksman]

IMHO Stix you are better to load them up and go shoot some bunny's Elmer style over some good burrows
I would be taking 50-100 with me at a time and checking weights volume ect after the shoot to see how many you have the same
sometimes it can take a few shots before your cases are 100% formed to your chamber

I agree that concentricity and neck tension are very important especially if you are jumping your bullets

[Stix]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

[Stix]

IMHO Stix you are better to load them up and go shoot some bunny's Elmer style over some good burrows
I would be taking 50-100 with me at a time and checking weights volume ect after the shoot to see how many you have the same
sometimes it can take a few shots before your cases are 100% formed to your chamber

I agree that concentricity and neck tension are very important especially if you are jumping your bullets

Thats it marksman...i doubt the weight variance in these cases will afford such accuracy, & being impatient, i didnt want to have to shoot 500 bunnies at 150 yds before i got a tight tolerance batch of brass...thats why i got (what i thought) was high end brass in the first place...

Id like to stretch the legs of this unit,...& so wanted brass that was more uniform than just finding an average load in mis-match weighted brass & hoping for the best....you know...just to appease the section of the mind dedicated to asking the question "was that the case volume that caused that miss...?"...

Ah well...ill weight sort them once prepped & see how i go getting a batch that way...if that fails ill have to steal a good batch of Norma's from the other rifle...

[bladeracer]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

[Stix]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

Thanks Blade...
Im not asking you for a quote...but have you any idea of what they charge you for freight for that weight item...?...id imagine it'd be much the same to here...

[bladeracer]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

Thanks Blade...
Im not asking you for a quote...but have you any idea of what they charge you for freight for that weight item...?...id imagine it'd be much the same to here...

I"ve never ordered such a small order, I like to dilute the shipping costs
But they charged $22 on 200 pieces of .30-30 brass and a K98 buttplate earlier this year.

My most recent order was 450 6.5mm bullets, 150 pellets, plus 1200rds of .22LR ammo, so the freight was $60 due to the Dangerous Goods ticket. It basically added three-cents to the price of each shot.

Before that they charged me $27 on 350 8mm bullets, 1000 12ga. overshot cards and three spare Ruger extractors.

[SCJ429]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

[bladeracer]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

Thanks Blade...
Im not asking you for a quote...but have you any idea of what they charge you for freight for that weight item...?...id imagine it'd be much the same to here...

I"ve never ordered such a small order, I like to dilute the shipping costs
But they charged $22 on 200 pieces of .30-30 brass and a K98 buttplate earlier this year.

My most recent order was 450 6.5mm bullets, 150 pellets, plus 1200rds of .22LR ammo, so the freight was $60 due to the Dangerous Goods ticket. It basically added three-cents to the price of each shot.

Before that they charged me $27 on 350 8mm bullets, 1000 12ga. overshoþ cards and three spare Ruger extractors.

I just ran the order for two boxes of the TNT's and the shipping quote is $18 - wish I'd thought of that before

[bladeracer]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

I would agree, the .204 you have to work very hard to make it shoot badly with anything.

[Stix]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

Thanks Blade...
Im not asking you for a quote...but have you any idea of what they charge you for freight for that weight item...?...id imagine it'd be much the same to here...

I"ve never ordered such a small order, I like to dilute the shipping costs
But they charged $22 on 200 pieces of .30-30 brass and a K98 buttplate earlier this year.

My most recent order was 450 6.5mm bullets, 150 pellets, plus 1200rds of .22LR ammo, so the freight was $60 due to the Dangerous Goods ticket. It basically added three-cents to the price of each shot.

Before that they charged me $27 on 350 8mm bullets, 1000 12ga. overshoþ cards and three spare Ruger extractors.

I just ran the order for two boxes of the TNT's and the shipping quote is $18 - wish I'd thought of that before

Me too...!!!...
I even did that earlier on some traps...
Thanks blade...i appreciate it...

They look well priced...ill have to get some as soon as i can...

[Stix]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

[SCJ429]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

Sorry Mate, I thought that was obvious.....oh and some CCI BR4 primers too....

Did you get Norma brass from your LGS? If so I am surprised that there is a kernel of brass in the flash hole. I use some Norma brass for a 222 and the flash holes were pretty clean. As good as Lapua brass in that respect.

[Stix]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

Sorry Mate, I thought that was obvious.....oh and some CCI BR4 primers too....

Did you get Norma brass from your LGS? If so I am surprised that there is a kernel of brass in the flash hole. I use some Norma brass for a 222 and the flash holes were pretty clean. As good as Lapua brass in that respect.

I have Norma for my other one & that took a good bit of prepping...

But this stuff is Nosler--i thought it was the Custom Comp stuff all prepped & ready to go (so i was led to believe)--but its not...its just random thrown in a bag in the factory stuff...lots of prep work...& big chunks of brass coming from inside...

[Stix]

Unbelievable...!!!

Im working through prepping this bag of 250 cases, & all of a sudden im at the bottom of the bag...???...

Wow.. i thinkl to myself...Cant believe i got through them in 2 nights...!!??!!??

Hang on a minute...(look in the container im putting them in--laying them down in lots of ten...)
Do a count, and there's only 150...un fark'n believable...!!!

Grab them & check in lots of ten on the kitchen scales just incase im stark raving mad...exactly 150, & another 15 or 16 out on the coffee table that have bent necks & cant get the flash hole uniformer in...

One Hundred and bloody sixty five out of 250...!!!...

Surely Im not going that crazy...but i second guess myself...???...Ive only had them sitting next to the coffee table & no where else...i havnt even chambered one yet & the scissors that cut the bag are still sitting there next to the container of brass...!...none accidentally kicked under the couch...i havnt had more than 2 beers per day...no one's been here...

This is the second time ive bought brass from this shop & the count has been less than the packaged amount, & they made me feel like a criminal last time when my box of 100 Lap was only 92 count...!!!

Many others have issues with them....& ive given them the benefit of the doubt & go back to give locals a crack instead of buying interstate...

Either the factory has stuffed up big time or these guys are surely taking the piss...!!!...Again they'll accuse me of stealing or lying...
Ah...why is it so hard...really...!!...Big Sigh...

My name must be Trueman & im starring in my own bloody movie...!!!...Fair dinkum...!!

[Apollo]

Stix, I think you said these cases were Nosler Custom Competition. As far as I can tell Nosler CC do not come in quantities greater than 50 cases in a sealed plastic bag in a cardboard box. By the sounds of it you have just a bag of unsorted brass cases.

All the .204R Nosler Custom Competition cases I have bought, 5 boxes are all as described, fully prepped and the weight difference was less than 1gr overall, more like 0.5gr from memory. All were inspected and not one needed any attention.

I think you got ripped off big time, but Nosler CC are by no means cheap. Been a long time but I think like $75 per 50 Box. And remember the cases are made by Norma.

EDIT.... Just curiosity I looked around for a current price and found one place selling these for $119 per 50 Box... WOW.... Just as well I have enough on hand to wear a barrel out....

[straightshooter]

I misunderstood the original post thinking it was to do with reforming of brass.
As it turns out it was to do with fireforming but the thread has moved on somewhat so this is now "late news".
Ask yourself the question, what is fireforming, and the follow up question, why do you do it?
The answer to both is: the firing of a round at or near a full strength load so as to make it conform as nearly as possible to the dimensions of the desired chamber so as to enjoy the benefits in accuracy that this may supply to reloads.
So the upshot is that there is only one way to correctly fireform brass.

[Stix]

Stix, I think you said these cases were Nosler Custom Competition. As far as I can tell Nosler CC do not come in quantities greater than 50 cases in a sealed plastic bag in a cardboard box. By the sounds of it you have just a bag of unsorted brass cases.

All the .204R Nosler Custom Competition cases I have bought, 5 boxes are all as described, fully prepped and the weight difference was less than 1gr overall, more like 0.5gr from memory. All were inspected and not one needed any attention.

I think you got ripped off big time, but Nosler CC are by no means cheap. Been a long time but I think like $75 per 50 Box. And remember the cases are made by Norma.

EDIT.... Just curiosity I looked around for a current price and found one place selling these for $119 per 50 Box... WOW.... Just as well I have enough on hand to wear a barrel out....

Yes i was led to believe they were costom comp cases (fully prepped).
Even when i went into the store, the cases were sitting in a sealed nosler bag on the counter, & i said "i thought they csme in a box", & the reply was something in the order of 'they used to'...

I then asked if its worth checking the flash holes etc to see how well prepped the are...
The answer was something in the order of 'no just shoot em'...

When i got home, i saw the other side of the bag that says ""new premium unprepped brass--full lrngth resize before loading".

Yes the dealer obviously knew this...!!!

These cases are not prepped or weight sorted...
Figured ill live with that, but living with paying nearly $1.90 for cases that are all over the place is not something im at all happy about...!!

[Stix]

I misunderstood the original post thinking it was to do with reforming of brass.
As it turns out it was to do with fireforming but the thread has moved on somewhat so this is now "late news".
Ask yourself the question, what is fireforming, and the follow up question, why do you do it?
The answer to both is: the firing of a round at or near a full strength load so as to make it conform as nearly as possible to the dimensions of the desired chamber so as to enjoy the benefits in accuracy that this may supply to reloads.
So the upshot is that there is only one way to correctly fireform brass.

I appreciate how you like to make people think about answering for themselves straightshooter, or maybe you like giving harsh, semi cryptic answers...

I thought there may be other ways of forming cases to the chamber other than using bullets...im sure ive read of such things, just not sure where so thought id ask here first...

Anyway...
To me, forming cases to the chamber by way of firing them, is fireforming...whether that be with cases for that chambering being formed to the chamber for accurising purposes, or forming cases from one chambering to another...
Its only that the latter has more steps involved.

Anyone feel free to inform me of the correct terms to use between the two processes (that are effectively the same), so i dont immediately confuse so many into thinking ive some outrageous wildcat...

[Stix]

Turns out Nosler un-prepped 204 cases have had some packaging issues.

NIOA are aware of the issue and are sending out new cases in the post.

Pretty good stuff on their part...!!...just means i have to wait another week to get them, followed by another week before i get to finish prepping & sorting them...

I wonder when ill get to shoot the rifle...

[Sergeant Hartman]

Never.. lol