Fire forming Brass Cases

[bladeracer]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

I would agree, the .204 you have to work very hard to make it shoot badly with anything.

[Stix]

No mention of the cartridge you are using. But what about cheap cast bullets with a small charge of fast burning powder

ok...its a 204...can you sweet talk scj into selling me a box of his Zmax's...cos aside from them, all other bullets, even the cheapest i know, of are near enough to double the cost of those, & i cant get em anymore...

Anyone want to donate a couple hundred 20 cal bullets...?...

Rebels have the 39gn TNT for $28/100 just now, a very good bullet that is worth experimenting with anyway.
https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collec ... oint-100pk

Thanks Blade...
Im not asking you for a quote...but have you any idea of what they charge you for freight for that weight item...?...id imagine it'd be much the same to here...

I"ve never ordered such a small order, I like to dilute the shipping costs
But they charged $22 on 200 pieces of .30-30 brass and a K98 buttplate earlier this year.

My most recent order was 450 6.5mm bullets, 150 pellets, plus 1200rds of .22LR ammo, so the freight was $60 due to the Dangerous Goods ticket. It basically added three-cents to the price of each shot.

Before that they charged me $27 on 350 8mm bullets, 1000 12ga. overshoþ cards and three spare Ruger extractors.

I just ran the order for two boxes of the TNT's and the shipping quote is $18 - wish I'd thought of that before

Me too...!!!...
I even did that earlier on some traps...
Thanks blade...i appreciate it...

They look well priced...ill have to get some as soon as i can...

[Stix]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

[SCJ429]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

Sorry Mate, I thought that was obvious.....oh and some CCI BR4 primers too....

Did you get Norma brass from your LGS? If so I am surprised that there is a kernel of brass in the flash hole. I use some Norma brass for a 222 and the flash holes were pretty clean. As good as Lapua brass in that respect.

[Stix]

I am betting that if you bought a box of Norma 204 brass and grabbed the first fifty you pick out, load some Blitzkings up and did some load testing, you would be shooting 1/4 MOA in an afternoon.

If you would like me to demonstrate, please send me the Norma brass, a box of 500 Blitzkings and four kilos of 2208.

Huh...
Whats wrong with you...
Dont you want the new rifle as well...

Sorry Mate, I thought that was obvious.....oh and some CCI BR4 primers too....

Did you get Norma brass from your LGS? If so I am surprised that there is a kernel of brass in the flash hole. I use some Norma brass for a 222 and the flash holes were pretty clean. As good as Lapua brass in that respect.

I have Norma for my other one & that took a good bit of prepping...

But this stuff is Nosler--i thought it was the Custom Comp stuff all prepped & ready to go (so i was led to believe)--but its not...its just random thrown in a bag in the factory stuff...lots of prep work...& big chunks of brass coming from inside...

[Stix]

Unbelievable...!!!

Im working through prepping this bag of 250 cases, & all of a sudden im at the bottom of the bag...???...

Wow.. i thinkl to myself...Cant believe i got through them in 2 nights...!!??!!??

Hang on a minute...(look in the container im putting them in--laying them down in lots of ten...)
Do a count, and there's only 150...un fark'n believable...!!!

Grab them & check in lots of ten on the kitchen scales just incase im stark raving mad...exactly 150, & another 15 or 16 out on the coffee table that have bent necks & cant get the flash hole uniformer in...

One Hundred and bloody sixty five out of 250...!!!...

Surely Im not going that crazy...but i second guess myself...???...Ive only had them sitting next to the coffee table & no where else...i havnt even chambered one yet & the scissors that cut the bag are still sitting there next to the container of brass...!...none accidentally kicked under the couch...i havnt had more than 2 beers per day...no one's been here...

This is the second time ive bought brass from this shop & the count has been less than the packaged amount, & they made me feel like a criminal last time when my box of 100 Lap was only 92 count...!!!

Many others have issues with them....& ive given them the benefit of the doubt & go back to give locals a crack instead of buying interstate...

Either the factory has stuffed up big time or these guys are surely taking the piss...!!!...Again they'll accuse me of stealing or lying...
Ah...why is it so hard...really...!!...Big Sigh...

My name must be Trueman & im starring in my own bloody movie...!!!...Fair dinkum...!!

[Apollo]

Stix, I think you said these cases were Nosler Custom Competition. As far as I can tell Nosler CC do not come in quantities greater than 50 cases in a sealed plastic bag in a cardboard box. By the sounds of it you have just a bag of unsorted brass cases.

All the .204R Nosler Custom Competition cases I have bought, 5 boxes are all as described, fully prepped and the weight difference was less than 1gr overall, more like 0.5gr from memory. All were inspected and not one needed any attention.

I think you got ripped off big time, but Nosler CC are by no means cheap. Been a long time but I think like $75 per 50 Box. And remember the cases are made by Norma.

EDIT.... Just curiosity I looked around for a current price and found one place selling these for $119 per 50 Box... WOW.... Just as well I have enough on hand to wear a barrel out....

[straightshooter]

I misunderstood the original post thinking it was to do with reforming of brass.
As it turns out it was to do with fireforming but the thread has moved on somewhat so this is now "late news".
Ask yourself the question, what is fireforming, and the follow up question, why do you do it?
The answer to both is: the firing of a round at or near a full strength load so as to make it conform as nearly as possible to the dimensions of the desired chamber so as to enjoy the benefits in accuracy that this may supply to reloads.
So the upshot is that there is only one way to correctly fireform brass.

[Stix]

Stix, I think you said these cases were Nosler Custom Competition. As far as I can tell Nosler CC do not come in quantities greater than 50 cases in a sealed plastic bag in a cardboard box. By the sounds of it you have just a bag of unsorted brass cases.

All the .204R Nosler Custom Competition cases I have bought, 5 boxes are all as described, fully prepped and the weight difference was less than 1gr overall, more like 0.5gr from memory. All were inspected and not one needed any attention.

I think you got ripped off big time, but Nosler CC are by no means cheap. Been a long time but I think like $75 per 50 Box. And remember the cases are made by Norma.

EDIT.... Just curiosity I looked around for a current price and found one place selling these for $119 per 50 Box... WOW.... Just as well I have enough on hand to wear a barrel out....

Yes i was led to believe they were costom comp cases (fully prepped).
Even when i went into the store, the cases were sitting in a sealed nosler bag on the counter, & i said "i thought they csme in a box", & the reply was something in the order of 'they used to'...

I then asked if its worth checking the flash holes etc to see how well prepped the are...
The answer was something in the order of 'no just shoot em'...

When i got home, i saw the other side of the bag that says ""new premium unprepped brass--full lrngth resize before loading".

Yes the dealer obviously knew this...!!!

These cases are not prepped or weight sorted...
Figured ill live with that, but living with paying nearly $1.90 for cases that are all over the place is not something im at all happy about...!!

[Stix]

I misunderstood the original post thinking it was to do with reforming of brass.
As it turns out it was to do with fireforming but the thread has moved on somewhat so this is now "late news".
Ask yourself the question, what is fireforming, and the follow up question, why do you do it?
The answer to both is: the firing of a round at or near a full strength load so as to make it conform as nearly as possible to the dimensions of the desired chamber so as to enjoy the benefits in accuracy that this may supply to reloads.
So the upshot is that there is only one way to correctly fireform brass.

I appreciate how you like to make people think about answering for themselves straightshooter, or maybe you like giving harsh, semi cryptic answers...

I thought there may be other ways of forming cases to the chamber other than using bullets...im sure ive read of such things, just not sure where so thought id ask here first...

Anyway...
To me, forming cases to the chamber by way of firing them, is fireforming...whether that be with cases for that chambering being formed to the chamber for accurising purposes, or forming cases from one chambering to another...
Its only that the latter has more steps involved.

Anyone feel free to inform me of the correct terms to use between the two processes (that are effectively the same), so i dont immediately confuse so many into thinking ive some outrageous wildcat...

[Stix]

Turns out Nosler un-prepped 204 cases have had some packaging issues.

NIOA are aware of the issue and are sending out new cases in the post.

Pretty good stuff on their part...!!...just means i have to wait another week to get them, followed by another week before i get to finish prepping & sorting them...

I wonder when ill get to shoot the rifle...

[Sergeant Hartman]

Never.. lol

[Stix]

Incase its of interest to anyone...the OCD heads out there...

Just uniforning/de-burring the flasholes of this Nosler 204 brass...

Ive got an average of .14 of a grain (well---0.1385 grains) of brass just from the flash hole of each peice of brass...

[Apollo]

Not that it's of any interest but what tool did you use to do this little task..??

So, I would imagine that you have now done all the necks inside and out, uniformed all the primer pockets, full length sized all, trimmed all to a uniform length and lastly batch weighed all the cases.

Now ready to prime all and finally get to fire that rubbish new rifle.... hopefully it doesn't blow up in the process.

But wait, maybe you will think of something else to do beforehand like batch all your bullets.

[Stix]

If its of no interest, why do you ask...?

I take it you're just using the old passive aggressive behavior to cover up the inherent interest you cant seem to ignore, the whole time masking your controlling ways and using patronising hostile conduct in an attempt at making someone look stupid and belittling their want for improvement & success...

You're too old to act like the fat school yard bully calling the skinny kid skinny...



...K&M flash hole uniformer...

No...i havnt done any other steps yet...& i wont until i get the rest of the brass...one step at a time ol'cock...

But thanks for your concern...

Ill be sure & keep you up to date as things progress...

[Apollo]

K&M...

BTW... I was always the skinny kid that got bullied all my school life... However, the shoe was on the other foot when it came to life in the real world...

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hey please keep me updated.

[bladeracer]

Not that it's of any interest but what tool did you use to do this little task..??

So, I would imagine that you have now done all the necks inside and out, uniformed all the primer pockets, full length sized all, trimmed all to a uniform length and lastly batch weighed all the cases.

Now ready to prime all and finally get to fire that rubbish new rifle.... hopefully it doesn't blow up in the process.

But wait, maybe you will think of something else to do beforehand like batch all your bullets.

Was there any useful basis for taking the time to write this rubbish?

[bladeracer]

K&M...

BTW... I was always the skinny kid that got bullied all my school life... However, the shoe was on the other foot when it came to life in the real world...

You mean you grew up to be a bully yourself...

[Apollo]

Yes, to stir you up to make a stupid reply.

But more so to get my mate into gear and get going comparing notes on a rifle we both own....

Maybe I'll just keep our thoughts confined to phone calls and leave you out.....!!

[bladeracer]

Yes, to stir you up to make a stupid reply.

But more so to get my mate into gear and get going comparing notes on a rifle we both own....

Maybe I'll just keep our thoughts confined to phone calls and leave you out.....!!

Unless you have something to offer to the thread I think that would be a good policy.

[Stix]

Att case prep experts...

So...these new cases are ready to size...

But they differ in size (shoulder dimension) quite a bit...at least a good 7 thou...

The majority (ive only measured 20 or so) appear to be just short of the chamber, but the shortest ones are atleast 5 thou shorter than chamber...

So...should i FL size them ALL...or just the ones that are too long...

On one hand id like to keep everything consistant, so if i size one case, id rather do them all, but on the other hand, It seems silly to me to FL size cases that are nearly to chamber length , only to blow them tight out again...

So, only FL size the ones that are too long, & neck size the others...?
Or crank them all through the FL sizer to the shortest length & fire them back out again...

[marksman]

"& another 15 or 16 out on the coffee table that have bent necks & cant get the flash hole uniformer in..."
this troubles me Stix, l recon it may be that the flash hole itself is very tight or the burr is over where the end of the de-burr tool needs to go
anyway
you know it may take a couple of firings for the cases to be 100% formed to your chamber and it wont be till then that you will 100% see a difference
what l would be doing myself is to find your longest cases and fls them to just fit the chamber - 2 thou and wait till the others catch up

if you are going to have the bullet jammed fls to the smallest case, no worries, that does work and quite a few comp shooters l have spoken to do exactly that
but only if you are jamming into the lands, the bullet will find centre
l dont think thats what you want though so my recommendation would be to fls to your chamber lenth - 2 thou and go shooting

[Madang185]

Done two.
Std 243 Winchester to 243 AI. 20 gns of W296 or AR 2205 topped with polenta with a wad of tissue on top. Rounded shoulders squared up with first powder load . No problems.

7mm RM Cases to 257 Weatherby Magnum. Bertram cases. Leaves necks short, no issue

25gns AR2205 etc + polenta same result

All straighforward

[marksman]

Done two.
Std 243 Winchester to 243 AI. 20 gns of W296 or AR 2205 topped with polenta with a wad of tissue on top. Rounded shoulders squared up with first powder load . No problems.

7mm RM Cases to 257 Weatherby Magnum. Bertram cases. Leaves necks short, no issue

25gns AR2205 etc + polenta same result

All straighforward

l use a similar method for foming to non standard cases myself Madang
but l use a cork of soap in the neck to hold the powder in instead of tissue
l still need a shot or 2 to get the perfect fit

[Stix]

Well ive got around 60 left to FLS...

Something must be wrong with my press...still gett upt to .004" difference in shoulder after they've been through the die...
So they are all 2-4 thou shorter than chamber...

Im not holding out much hope for this brass--its all over the place in size length & weight...

Hopefully ill get it all done tonight...

[marksman]

it may be that the case heads are not square Stix another can of worms mate very sorry

its something that not many people worry about or know about
https://www.longrangehunting.com/thread ... ring.9866/
https://www.shootersforum.com/handloadi ... heads.html

l do square the case heads of my cases that the action has been worked, the bolt has been squared to the chamber ect...

now to explain my theory
when squaring the case heads you see that on most of these case's there is not a lot of the case head actually touching the bolt face
usually l find its only a ring around the primer hole raised up like a mound or the case head is lopsided ect..
but there are only a few out of say 100 that will contact more than 75% going by the cut on the case head,
expensive cases are affected no different to the cheaper cases
so when you are measuring headspace you may be measuring the high part off the case head that does not get touched when sizing because there is a hole in the shell holder you may be able to check this by holding different cases up to a light to see if you can see light through a gap when measuring, some say this is corrected by shooting your cases so they fireform to your chamber at the casehead as well as the body, its also said that an action that is not trued with the bolt face true to the bore wont make any difference, l dunno

but if it is true that when you fireform your cases the case head is flattening out on the bolt face it isn't really a problem after you fireform
these cases were fireformed before the case heads were trimmed and l only took off the humps around the primer pocket,
you can see they are not lopsided like some are
l'm only saying this may be the cause of inconsistent readings not that its another step everyone should do
hows that for OCD micro (anal) makes me happy

[Stix]

lol...
Bloody hell marksman...!!

I did that once to a batch of brass & have managed to not do it again since...you are not helping...

But youre right...i doubt these are flat--can tell by the marks left from primer pocket tool...

If going to do that, is it better to do before or after first firing...?



PS...& i agree...ive tried it after firing the cases & same result as you--still not an even case head after having been fired in the chamber...

[marksman]

lol...
Bloody hell marksman...!!

I did that once to a batch of brass & have managed to not do it again since...you are not helping...

But youre right...i doubt these are flat--can tell by the marks left from primer pocket tool...

If going to do that, is it better to do before or after first firing...?



PS...& i agree...ive tried it after firing the cases & same result as you--still not an even case head after having been fired in the chamber...

with these cases in the photo l blew them out from br to dasher first but it is up to what you think,
maybe try and see if they are out of shape after the first fire, l dont think it will hurt but remember headspace issues can arise
after the first fire the cases should fit the chamber better so less headspace issues in theory
l dont know if this is going to give any increase in precision at all, it just makes sence to me to have all surfaces mating properly and true
the reason comp actions are trued in the first place

[Stix]

Well hows this for a pissah..

Really pushed myself tonight...instead of loading other stuff to test & mounting a scope, i FL sized the last 70-80 cases, trimmed 280, then chamfered & deburred the 250...

My hands were black & well lubed...

Went to grab the wet tumbler and...bloody hell...the rubber ring on the lid is busted... ...ffs...!!!

Cant clean the cases, so wont be shooting the new rifle...again...



Big effort on these cases this week to shoot the rifle this wekend......very deflating...!!!...

So anyone know where to get rubber rings from...?...(the o ring for the lid)...

Its for a machine like this...https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3KG-45W-Rot ... 0677.m4598