Is this unburnt powder

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Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 14 Oct 2019, 5:34 pm

So this arv I put my 1st shots through my 45-70.
I'm using 500gr spartan projectiles and 2208.
I did alot of reading forums before I started loading and noticed the yanks saying Varget is good for heavy 45-70 projectiles, but will leave unburnt powder behind if you don't use a compressed load and heavy crimp.

So I know this is a rather amateur question, but what does unburnt powder look like? Is this it?

I plan on getting 2207 when I am next at the local but I use heaps of 2208 in my 223 and 308 so I'd love to find a good load for it in the 45-70 as well
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by sungazer » 14 Oct 2019, 5:59 pm

Yes that looks like unburnt powder. You really would want to run a patch through after every shot. You dont want to be shooting with that still in the barrel.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by bladeracer » 14 Oct 2019, 6:02 pm

Put a match to it, if it's sunburnt powder it'll burn.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 14 Oct 2019, 6:40 pm

Why is unburnt powder worse than normal powder residue?

what causes powder to be left unburnt?

And what are the options to stop it from happening?

Can't say its something I've ever thought about
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Oct 2019, 6:59 pm

Kelsey Cooter wrote:Why is unburnt powder worse than normal powder residue? Carbon is normal burnt powder.

what causes powder to be left unburnt? Powder is too slow, use 2207.

And what are the options to stop it from happening? Yes, use 2207 or BM1.

Can't say its something I've ever thought about
Last edited by SCJ429 on 14 Oct 2019, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by sungazer » 14 Oct 2019, 7:35 pm

Unburnt powder is very hard to compress. Just last week on of the shooters that is over 80 in our club was having some issues loading rounds and then getting the projectile stuck in the barrel. and then dropping powder in the chamber and action everywhere.

So we cleaned up the rifle as much aw we could and when I resized his cases for him I noticed a little in dent in a few cases on the shoulder. This will have happened when a piece of powder was stuck in the chamber on the shoulder section.

So if you have a bullet hurtling down the barrel at 3000fps and it hits a speed bump the un burnt powder what happens? Does it push it out or does it squish the powder of does the barrel bulge a little

Probably depending and probably all three at different times. The one that is really bad is deforming your barrel. We all know or can imagine that is not going to end well..
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by in2anity » 14 Oct 2019, 8:44 pm

Mate it’s probably just a bit too slow burning for the big ole straight wall. You’re one the right track by thinking about a faster powder like 2207 me thinks. Other things you could possibly experiment with is using a magnum primer to help with ignition. I guess you could also try a heavier crimp.

If you’re feeling super motivated, you could look into case fillers to help pack the powder against the primer...
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 14 Oct 2019, 9:33 pm

in2anity wrote:Mate it’s probably just a bit too slow burning for the big ole straight wall. You’re one the right track by thinking about a faster powder like 2207 me thinks. Other things you could possibly experiment with is using a magnum primer to help with ignition. I guess you could also try a heavier crimp.


I've also got bm2 and I've seen it mentioned on forums so I'm thinking I'll try some bm2 loads next as itll be a while before I get into town and get a bottle of 07. I was just hoping the 08 would work because I already use so much of it.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by in2anity » 15 Oct 2019, 7:22 am

Kelsey Cooter wrote:I've also got bm2 and I've seen it mentioned on forums so I'm thinking I'll try some bm2 loads next as itll be a while before I get into town and get a bottle of 07. I was just hoping the 08 would work because I already use so much of it.

Is it a new gun? What action? Just work up to a full case of bm2 - I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 15 Oct 2019, 7:34 am

Yes it is unburnt powder.
Without some clear understanding of the actual combustion process in a cartridge one may still be liable to make poor selections of powder.
I presume that the projectile you are using is cast lead and velocities are relatively low and seeing as how it is a 45/70 you can't be too adventurous with pressure.
You will probably get better results with a powder within the burning range of AP100 to 2205 which could be a powder from another maker. Certainly 2205 would likely be the slowest usable in your application.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by in2anity » 15 Oct 2019, 7:52 am

straightshooter wrote:You will probably get better results with a powder within the burning range of AP100 to 2205 which could be a powder from another maker. Certainly 2205 would likely be the slowest usable in your application.

Not sure about this... remember he's driving a 500gr pill. At least initially I'd be steering clear of 2205 - 2207 woiuld be much better suited IMO. Or perhaps even 06H.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by sungazer » 15 Oct 2019, 8:46 am

I would also give the 2206H a go I know its a pain if you dont have that powder already but dont worry one day you will get a gun to shoot all the powders with the poeder will last a long time.

The 2206H also has the advantage the you can load smaller charges than what is book minimum.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Oct 2019, 5:34 pm

If it were me I would start with 30 grains of 2207. If you wanted to try 2206 you could start at around 40 grains. I have never tried 500 grain pills it should be fun.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 15 Oct 2019, 9:28 pm

Cheers for all the replies and info,

The rifle is a new miroku/Winchester 1886.

Yes I actually do have 2206h and have seen a few powder ranges on a forum or 2 so can give it a go also

Would bm2 be better than 06h? Its a bit faster isn't it?

I actually do have 2205 also, but I saw a bloke saying on an old post on here that he uses it in a single shot for competitions but he finds it is position sensitive so I'm thinking I'll just steer clear of it
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Oct 2019, 6:20 am

I would use Trail Boss before stuffing around with pistol powders. It is easy to use, just fill up the case to just under the projectile, and you get some respectable velocities out of it.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by in2anity » 16 Oct 2019, 7:29 am

Kelsey Cooter wrote:Cheers for all the replies and info,

The rifle is a new miroku/Winchester 1886.

Yes I actually do have 2206h and have seen a few powder ranges on a forum or 2 so can give it a go also

Would bm2 be better than 06h? Its a bit faster isn't it?

I actually do have 2205 also, but I saw a bloke saying on an old post on here that he uses it in a single shot for competitions but he finds it is position sensitive so I'm thinking I'll just steer clear of it


Only one way to find out - try them all! Considering it's such a large pill though, I'd start as slow as possible first and then work into the faster region if you feel you need to. In reality, I'm sure bm2 and AR2206H both have the potentiall to work just fine - take your pick.

I suppose another variable is (considering the buckhorn sights) the ability to actually shoot the thing to a high degree of accuracy (enough to test your handloads). I have a marbles tang sight on my 1892 which (coupled with a front globe insert + using round targets) allows for some very accurate fire, enough to get a good feel for how my handloads are working out.

Nice gun btw :drinks:
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 16 Oct 2019, 7:48 am

"Kelsey Cooter"
Why is unburnt powder worse than normal powder residue?
Why load powder for it not to contribute to the combustion process?

what causes powder to be left unburnt?
The selected powder is too slow burning for the caliber, case, pressure and projectile combination. Unlike bottle necked cartridges, straight walled cartridges have very different combustion characteristics. Powders intended for bottle necked cartridges are 'slower burning' due to shape and deterrent coatings designed to render them suitable for their intended application in high pressure bottle necked cartridges. In your straight walled case the combination of a low 'shot start pressure' due to a lead bullet with a rapid increase in combustion chamber volume exacerbated by low pressure causes the 'fire to go out' before all the powder is sufficiently ignited to continue burning. A magnum primer may improve things but only at the expense of higher pressure.

And what are the options to stop it from happening?
Use a suitably fast powder and an inert filler such as a softly balled up tissue. Trial and error will inform you as to what regular size to cut the tissue to and how firmly to ball it up.

Can't say its something I've ever thought about
Therein lies the problem.

I have no experience with a 45-70 but have had extensive experience with a 444 Marlin since the mid 70's which is generally similar and have learnt many things the hard way.
You have a number of important considerations.
A 1886 action is nowhere near as strong as a 444 Marlin action.
A modern 45-70 case is weaker than than a 444 case.
So on those two counts you have ample reason to be cautious.
Since you are using a cast projectile, maximum velocity will be in the range 1500 - 1600 fps so pressures of necessity must be low in order for you to have decent accuracy and the powder must work satisfactorily at those pressures.
I would suggest starting cautiously with 2205 which you say you already have with magnum primer and filler but if that is still unsatisfactory then I suspect Hercules (Aliant) 2400, a very slow shotgun/pistol powder, may be better suited.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Oct 2019, 8:30 pm

Wouldn't it be a bit dicey getting 2205 down to 1200 fps where Trail Boss could do it easily. With a bit of experimentation you might even get those 500 grain bullet going faster than 1500 fps. How fast you you want to shoot?
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 17 Oct 2019, 9:37 am

SCJ429 wrote:Wouldn't it be a bit dicey getting 2205 down to 1200 fps where Trail Boss could do it easily. With a bit of experimentation you might even get those 500 grain bullet going faster than 1500 fps. How fast you you want to shoot?


Yeah I haven't loaded any trailboss rounds yet but do plan to.

This rifle is purely for fun mate, I don't have a speed I'm trying to achieve or anything. Just looking to achieve a reasonably stout loading for having fun, shooting gongs and targets, and learn more along the way.

What is the general speed limit for hard cast lead projectiles without gas checks?
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by in2anity » 17 Oct 2019, 10:32 am

Kelsey Cooter wrote:What is the general speed limit for hard cast lead projectiles without gas checks?

Depends on how hard they are, and what kind of coating they have. As a general rule I try to stay under 1500fps for alloyed lead, which won't be a problem for you. If you're just looking for a plinking load, I second the Trail Boss recomendation. Fun and easy powder that one.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 17 Oct 2019, 6:53 pm

Shooting a 400 grain bullet at 1200 fps from my 45/70 is fun, enjoyable and hits reasonably hard at 100 metres. It is much easier to shoot than a 300 WM in regards to recoil.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 18 Oct 2019, 6:20 am

A 500 grain projectile at 1500 to 1600 fps out of a 45-70 is getting pretty close to a full power load for that cartridge.
At 1600 fps you are looking at 2843 foot/pounds of muzzle energy, somewhat more than I would consider a plinking load
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Gamerancher » 18 Oct 2019, 9:19 am

"A 1886 action is nowhere near as strong as a 444 Marlin action."........WRONG!

The 1886 action is actually the stronger action of the two. ( The .444 Marlin being chambered in the 336 action.)
The 1886 was originally built to take the .45/70 round and other big bore "buffalo" rounds of the day. It was chambered up to .50/110 and the Model 71 Winchester, which utilised the same action, was chambered in .348 Win, which was the same basic .50 cal case necked down to .348 and loaded with smokeless powder and up to 250gr bullets.

500gr bullets are too heavy for your application, more suited to single shot rifles, they're not really meant for lever guns.
You'll have better success with bullets in the 300 - 405 grain range.
For accurate "plinking" or target loads out to 200m, try a 360 gr cast bullet with 16 grains of Trailboss, or 20 grains of 2205.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 19 Oct 2019, 7:04 am

Gamerancher wrote:"A 1886 action is nowhere near as strong as a 444 Marlin action."........WRONG!

The 1886 action is actually the stronger action of the two. ( The .444 Marlin being chambered in the 336 action.)
The 1886 was originally built to take the .45/70 round and other big bore "buffalo" rounds of the day. It was chambered up to .50/110 and the Model 71 Winchester, which utilised the same action, was chambered in .348 Win, which was the same basic .50 cal case necked down to .348 and loaded with smokeless powder and up to 250gr bullets..


Let me get this straight.
The 1886 is stronger than a Marlin because the somewhat similar model 71 is chambered for a 348.
Now let's look at the maximum pressures of commercial loadings:
45-70 - 28000 CUP
348 - 40000 CUP
444 - 44000 CUP
So go figger
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by Kelsey Cooter » 19 Oct 2019, 8:27 am

To be honest it really doesn't bother me either way which is stronger, but I've always understood the 1886 to be the superior action.

I'm wondering if your thinking of the 1894 action being weaker compared to a marlin 336
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 20 Oct 2019, 6:41 am

I have never seen an 1886 in the flesh, let alone handled one so I can't speak with any sort of authority.
But one thing to bear in mind is that any rifle action 'designed' by JM Browning is deified by US writers so sometimes you have to sift through a lot of hype to arrive at facts.
The upshot of what I was on about is caution in handloading for lever actions particularly for those that to some degree seem to be a little cavalier with front locking bolt actions and not to argue the merits of particular actions.
In your particular case you should expect to have plenty of shoulder fun, and power, with a sensible conservative reloading recipe.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Oct 2019, 9:02 am

straightshooter wrote:In your particular case you should expect to have plenty of shoulder fun, and power, with a sensible conservative reloading recipe.


Would this be a good case for trying Trail Boss where you could easily start off with a subsonic load and work up from there rather than stuff around with pistol powders and filling only a fraction of the case.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by sungazer » 20 Oct 2019, 9:11 am

SCJ429 wrote:
straightshooter wrote:In your particular case you should expect to have plenty of shoulder fun, and power, with a sensible conservative reloading recipe.


Would this be a good case for trying Trail Boss where you could easily start off with a subsonic load and work up from there rather than stuff around with pistol powders and filling only a fraction of the case.


Absolutely. The other path is a very dangerous one. If you are going to try and use loads at low case capacity AR2206H is the one recommend. But Trailboss would still be the place to start for what the OP wants.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by straightshooter » 21 Oct 2019, 6:51 am

SCJ429 wrote:
straightshooter wrote:In your particular case you should expect to have plenty of shoulder fun, and power, with a sensible conservative reloading recipe.


Would this be a good case for trying Trail Boss where you could easily start off with a subsonic load and work up from there rather than stuff around with pistol powders and filling only a fraction of the case.


Probably
I don't have any experience with Trail Boss so it's not for me to comment any further.
But handloaders have been loading cast bullets successfully for a very long time.
Rather than sifting through informed but mostly uninformed internet comment, perhaps possession of even a second hand copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Reloading book would be advantageous.
As would the exercise of a few grey cells.
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Re: Is this unburnt powder

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Oct 2019, 7:19 am

Because ADI saw that reloaders have wanted to replicate black powders speeds or just wanted to run a reduced load they made a powder with a high bulk density so you do not have to use pistol powders and a filler. Try some, you might enjoy it.
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