Donuts

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Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 10:41 am

Dam it...i think i have donuts...!!..And not the nice chocolate ones cut in half & filled with jam & cream that i like to roll around in...

So just before Xmas i received some body dies & a new 22-250 Lee neck collet die...
I have a couple of 22-250's, & neither of them i have been able to get to shoot consistantly...& the nice expensive one that i feed Lapua brass, some of the brass is slightly tight to chamber...

So ive gone to the extent of an exceptionally tight case sizing, prepping & annealing regime with these cases, to give a really good product to start from scratch with...

So last night i annealed them, ready to size & load today, & hopefully get out bush & start some good results driven testing...

For over the last hour ive been mucking around with the collet dies (i actually have 2 because im going to send one back due to it being not quite as Lee intends it to be--but for the most part it works)
Upon neck sizing some of the cases with the new collet die, some of the cases seemed to rub slightly, & others vigorously against the mandrel upon the case entering the die, & that friction being even worse when extracting the case (lowering the ram)...
I bought a couple of extra mandrels with the dies, & so replaced the mandrel incase that was bent...& hey Presto--it worked...!!...for 2 cases, then the third case went in ok, but extracted with friction...
So i thought maybe the die is a bit off kilter with its thread & somehow causing the cases to deform...?...
Then i thought maybe my cases are bent...??...(but how...?...)

Anyway...after much swapping of mandrels in & out of different dies, i finally decided to stick a bullet down the neck of an unsized case, & got lock-up--to that i thought ive done something terribly wrong & mixed up the cases id sized with the unsized ones...i very nearly hit a moment of "certification"... :lol: ...

But then i picked up the bullet again, & tried the following 10 cases, to find that some cases the bullet passed right through the neck & others stopped at what id guess is the junction of the neck/shoulder...the ones that stop feel so tight that they could be seated...

This is the first time these cases have been FL sized (Body die), so im not sure if these donuts have just appeared, or could be there from neck sizing with a redding expander ball type die in the past...??... :unknown:

So it would appear i have donuts...!!!...ive only ever encountered it on a few cases before, & so ive just ditched those odd random ones...but im not doing that with these cases as they are near new Lapua...

Id guess around half of them have donuts...but havent counted yet...

So....how to get rid of them...?

I do have good neck turning equipment that ive never used, & in that gear is a cutter pilot...do i need to use that...?

So, im asking all you guru knowledge boxes out there...what is the best way to "De-Donut" my cases, & also, given there are donuts on some of them & not all, will this cause a great &/or bad difference to the brass in terms of consistant volume...?...because as it stands now, these cases are amazing in terms of consistant weight, & i guess cutting brass out of some & not others will cause a shift in that...but im not sure by how much...

I guess that rifle is staying home...again...one day ill get it shooting...but for now, i look forward to any advice i get on de-donuting... :)
:drinks:
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Re: Donuts

Post by Wm.Traynor » 30 Dec 2019, 10:59 am

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums is where I saw this topic, years ago. You would more likely find it in "Centrefire Benchrest" but members here will know and of course there is our own benchrestbulletin.net/drupal

Good Luck Stix :) :thumbsup:
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 11:23 am

if l remember right Stix you have a K&M neck turner
if you have you the 22 cal carbide cutting pilot that fits inside the neck just run the cases through the turner without the neck turner cutter adjusted to neck turn
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Re: Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 11:26 am

Thanks gentle people... :)

Do the necks have to be sized first, or just as they are...?

Keeping in mind, while these have been through a body die, only some have been collet neck sized so far...the rest are as they were extracted from the chamber after firing...

And yes Marksman...thats the one...still sealed in the pack as i bought it years ago... :lol: ...( :oops: )...
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 12:03 pm

you would usually do it after firing because when you size or use the mandrel to size the neck you are pushing the do-nut to the outside of the case
so l would suggest to use these do-nut cases to start learning to neck turn, size the cases with your mandrel then cut the necks just into the shoulder that will get rid of the do-nut, l use a pedestal drill set on slow to hold the cases with the K&M case holder and neck turn slowly twice, lots of lube (thin oil, sewing machine oil ect...)
you could use a battery drill as well, but take your time as you do not want heat in the neck turner
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Re: Donuts

Post by Member-Deleted » 30 Dec 2019, 12:21 pm

I don't know much about donuts mate but I reckon you need to buy a new rifle :thumbsup: :D then look into the donuts a new gun may not fix the problem you have but will make you feel better :thumbsup: :drinks: :clap:
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Re: Donuts

Post by Potatoes » 30 Dec 2019, 12:41 pm

I found them on my 223 brass so i bought an le wilson inside neck reamer from brt shooting supplies which seams to get rid of them.
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Re: Donuts

Post by straightshooter » 30 Dec 2019, 2:28 pm

I read this topic title and came to the realisation that I haven't had a pineapple donut for a really long time.
Getting back on topic I think your 'donuts' may be as imaginary as my pineapple donut.
You say you haven't done any neck turning on these cases so where did the donut come from.
To the best of my knowledge the only way you can get a donut is by insufficient neck turning for the full length of the neck.
Ingenuity being as it is you must have found some other way of installing a donut if they indeed truly exist in your cases.
Be aware, Lee collet dies have a habit of doing funny things when improperly set up.
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Re: Donuts

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Dec 2019, 5:10 pm

The usual way to create a donut it to neck your brass up in caliber and incorporate part of the thicker shoulder into the neck. This is obviously not what occurred to Stix.
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 5:20 pm

straightshooter wrote:I read this topic title and came to the realisation that I haven't had a pineapple donut for a really long time.
Getting back on topic I think your 'donuts' may be as imaginary as my pineapple donut.
You say you haven't done any neck turning on these cases so where did the donut come from.
To the best of my knowledge the only way you can get a donut is by insufficient neck turning for the full length of the neck.
Ingenuity being as it is you must have found some other way of installing a donut if they indeed truly exist in your cases.
Be aware, Lee collet dies have a habit of doing funny things when improperly set up.


no no no
brass moves forward in cases when fired, the thickness of the shoulder will move into the neck area with or without neck turning
causing the do-nut to form, to check drop a bullet into a fired case if it moves down the neck and stops at the shoulder area it has a do-nut
the cause has nothing to do with neck turning, neck turning is the remedy
or as has been said a wilson inside neck reamer but even wilson do not recommend reaming and this is done on a fired case
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Re: Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 5:53 pm

marksman wrote:you would usually do it after firing because when you size or use the mandrel to size the neck you are pushing the do-nut to the outside of the case
so l would suggest to use these do-nut cases to start learning to neck turn, size the cases with your mandrel then cut the necks just into the shoulder that will get rid of the do-nut, l use a pedestal drill set on slow to hold the cases with the K&M case holder and neck turn slowly twice, lots of lube (thin oil, sewing machine oil ect...)
you could use a battery drill as well, but take your time as you do not want heat in the neck turner


So i have 14 cases that have been collet sized, & 35 that have been body sized...

Should o do the same with all of them...?
Or neck turn the ones that have been neck sized, & ream out the ones that havnt been neck sized...?

I also have the other 50 cases that i need to do as well...so they will need it done too no doubt--although i havent checked them yet...

Thanks Marksman... :drinks:
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Re: Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 6:03 pm

Straightshooter & SCJ...Ive had donuts form in some cases years ago, back in the day of only neck sizing with the trusty old simplex 3 turret jobby...

From memory, i had one or two random Win cases get a donut,...but i also had a heap of PMC cases that were quite a thick brass (i learnt that the hard way--same load in thicker brass gave a little more pressure than was expected--still safe, but flat primers & the odd tight case etc...)...anyway, a good few of them had a donut after only a firing or 2...

So what marksman says about the brass flowing must be the case...as ive said, these cases have only been fired 2...or maybe 3 times at most...but only 2 i think...

:drinks:
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Re: Donuts

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Dec 2019, 6:14 pm

I said the usual way not the only way.

You find after neck turning you may need to give your brass another skim after a few firing because the brass flows forward.
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Re: Donuts

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Dec 2019, 6:42 pm

Are you seating your projectiles so deeply that they are in the area with thicker brass at the neck shoulder junction? Are you able to seat them so they do not touch this area? If so, don't worry about your donut.
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Re: Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 6:46 pm

No im not seating them that deep...but with case design & shoulder angle alledgedly being big influencers of ignition, burn & pressure, would having different diameter case necks not cause pressure & burn differences...?
A donut will effectively create more torque if it were a carby on car, given its effectively creating a venturi...so i wonder if same influence on the cases...

We want everything the same dont we...?having half the cases with narrower necks goes against everything everyone says about cases to my mind... :unknown:

:drinks:
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 6:51 pm

if l were you Stix l would do them all
and as SCJ429 said do them again after firing but at the same measurement to take any irregularities that form from firing out
its not like trimming that you will have to keep it up, its normal for me to do it when prepping then again at the same measurement after firing for checking for any irregularities that form then that's it for the life of the case unless a do-nut forms them run the cutter pilot down the neck without recutting the neck

if you do them with a battery drill you can do them while watching the project (bad joke lol) l'm not allowed to do it in the house :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 6:54 pm

Stix wrote:No im not seating them that deep...but with case design & shoulder angle alledgedly being big influencers of ignition, burn & pressure, would having different diameter case necks not cause pressure & burn differences...?
A donut will effectively create more torque if it were a carby on car, given its effectively creating a venturi...so i wonder if same influence on the cases...

:drinks:


quick answer is yes :thumbsup:

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2016/05/ ... k-turning/
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Re: Donuts

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Dec 2019, 7:00 pm

When I make 30 BR cases I skim them after each firing for four firings before they settle down. I leave the cutter as is but each time it cuts a little more out of the shoulder junction.
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Re: Donuts

Post by Stix » 30 Dec 2019, 7:29 pm

marksman wrote:if l were you Stix l would do them all

if you do them with a battery drill you can do them while watching the project (bad joke lol) l'm not allowed to do it in the house :lol: :drinks:


Yes i will do them all marksman...what i meant was, some are now neck sized, so do i use the internal cutter on the ones not sized, & use the neck turner for the sized ones...?

Or just use both on all...? (for this time around)
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Re: Donuts

Post by Strikey » 30 Dec 2019, 9:10 pm

I believe the best way to prevent the brass flow problem which the 22/250 is known for and stop your donuts forming would be to get a rechamber to Ackley Improved, never FLS or trim cases again.
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Re: Donuts

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2019, 9:25 pm

Strikey wrote:I believe the best way to prevent the brass flow problem which the 22/250 is known for and stop your donuts forming would be to get a rechamber to Ackley Improved, never FLS or trim cases again.


this is very true :thumbsup:

"Yes i will do them all marksman...what i meant was, some are now neck sized, so do i use the internal cutter on the ones not sized, & use the neck turner for the sized ones...?

Or just use both on all...? (for this time around)"

what you do for one is done for all but start by putting them through a mandrel to make the necks all the same inside diameter
if you are worried that some will be tighter than others FLS them all first then heaps of wet lube and size with the mandrel slowly in small steps
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Re: Donuts

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Dec 2019, 9:35 pm

Strikey wrote:I believe the best way to prevent the brass flow problem which the 22/250 is known for and stop your donuts forming would be to get a rechamber to Ackley Improved, never FLS or trim cases again.


Not many guys want to put a reamer up their 22/250 but you can be kind to your brass by sizing the neck as little as possible and avoid using expander buttons. All this pushing and pulling draws the brass..
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