Differences in manuals .222mag

[Am88]

I don't have anything lower then 55gr at the moment to check. But I say that the average of the 55gr bullets was low being 54.9. but the average of the bullets as they got heavier increased. Or the 165gr SST's all being 165.2. could the balance beam possibly as the charge gets Lower and lower read less after a certain point. As I noted the 87gr bullets all were bang on 87grs

[SCJ429]

Why don't you load 25 grains into a case and run it over a chrono. If the speed is over 3200 fps then you have your answer. If it is under 3100 fps then your scales must be correct.

[Am88]

I can arrange that when the rifle gets received. Really wondering now about how many 19.5gr loads I have made. Once again thanks for your time. Some very intriguing info on this and I will get to the bottom of it

[Apollo]

Reloading for competition I got a bit anal years ago and purchased a set of Certified Check Weights I used to use on my balance beam scales. Don't even know where they are now but I do know that my Redding Scales if I set them with a certain weight, say 25gr then wanted to weigh near 50 gr they would be out but just a touch, say 0.4gr which was way too much for me.

Then I got my GemPro 250 and gave up checking as they were always spot on or within 1 granule of powder... in my main case AR2208.

I'm still anal about powder load weights and I'm not in any hurry to weigh a couple of hundred loads for competition. My powder thrower (RCBS) and scales (Redding) are over 40 years old. My system is throw a powder weight close to what is required then weigh on the balance beam, trickle powder until it's close then place on the GemPro Digital Scales and add/remove a granule of powder or so.

Even varminting loads I do the same but +/- 1 granule is close enough. Near everything I shoot is 1/2 MOA accuracy or for competition down to 0.1 MOA... Kept me in the top 500m shooters for some years and taught a mate the same practise which has won him a few first places. Won a 300m state title with a .243W Tikka T3 so...what I'm saying is in my view accurate powder loads are a must for accuracy.

A set of accurate Check Weights are very handy, even if only used a few times a year. Also with balance beam scales, keep your pivot points spotlessly clean with something like denaturated alcohol, doesn't leave any residue deposit like say metho does.

[Am88]

I do have another set of scales but my brother in law is currently in possession of them, I might pop into the gun shop tomorrow and grab a set to compare, I havent cleaned the scales for about 6 months now, I always keep them covered and I try to be consistent as possible with the pan placement as well.

[Oldbloke]

All good no idiot questions. Yes correct cases brand spankin Sako brass. I also have a brand new bag of Nosler brass. I do not have a drop tube either to try this. Cheers

About 2 grains of powder is a lot.

I couldnt imagine ADI incorrectly packaging/labeling the powder. I would dismiss this. But would not hurt to email them as someone mentioned.

You checked scales and someone confirmed they were set ok. Sure recheck/compare but they look ok.


Seems to me the case capacity is the most likely reason. (They are new sako, correct?)
Suggest get a another case from someone (different brand) and try and fill it. Again, on the surface looks to me u have 222 cases. E mail sako?

[Am88]

Old bloke have confirmed with Nosler .222 rem mag cases. Verniered the cases to specs online and in the manual. also I have about 450 .222 rem cases. Deffinataly aint them. I think along with SCJ429 we may have discovered a scale problem after doing some comparitive tests.

Cheers

[Oldbloke]

Old bloke have confirmed with Nosler .222 rem mag cases. Verniered the cases to specs online and in the manual. also I have about 450 .222 rem cases. Deffinataly aint them. I think along with SCJ429 we may have discovered a scale problem after doing some comparitive tests.

Cheers

That really only leaves scales then. OK hope you now have it worked out. Gee about 2 grains out of wack is a lot.

[Am88]

I am going to purchase a new set in the morning. I've never had a second set of scales to confirm these things, I was always going to so now I will. May have to pull all my .222 rounds I loaded 2 weeks ago now.

We came up with a difference of 1.6 grains between SCJ and myself with him checking on 2 scales.

[Oldbloke]

We came up with a difference of 1.6 grains between SCJ and myself with him checking on 2 scales.

WOW. Thats a lot.

After zeroing mine i always put a small test weight on them. I had 2, a 164 gr and 32.7 gr small stainless steel nut and bolt i recorded the weight 1st time i used them) Their weight has never varied. A good procedure. I use at least the 32.7gr each session.

However i just now made a new one (ss screw) 14.7 gr.

I know calibration of scales always includes at least 3 or 4 weights, not just 1.

The spead of weights is not great but for me the 164 is near bullet weight for 30 cal, 32.7 between powder weight for 223 and 3006. And both smaller ones together near bullet weight of 224

[Am88]

WOW. Thats a lot.

After zeroing mine i always put a small test weight on them. I had 2, a 164 gr and 32.7 gr small stainless steel nut and bolt i recorded the weight 1st time i used them) Their weight has never varied. A good procedure. I use at least the 32.7gr each session.

However i just now made a new one (ss screw) 14.7 gr.

I know calibration of scales always includes at least 3 or 4 weights, not just 1.

The spead of weights is not great but for me the 164 is near bullet weight for 30 cal, 32.7 between powder weight for 223 and 3006. And both smaller ones together near bullet weight of 224

I unfortunately have never had any check weights, I will now but. Good idea on just using random things, nuts, washers, screws, I shall take that on board. will verify any findings tomorrow afternoon with new scales and will also re confirm with my cheapo hornady scales that came with my kit.

Cheers

[Oldbloke]

Yeh, you can buy "standard weights" but really we are checking for and "change" over time.

Stainless is probably the best option but traditionally brass is used. If i recall correctly 4 are normally used spread evenly over the capacity of the scales.

[Am88]

So the plot thickens. New RCBS chargemaster 1500 scales. Calibrated it, Bought some check weights to go and they all checked out perfect.

The new scales on my charge weight of 26.1grs from my 505 beam scales, out of the 3, they all game back as 26grs. So I checked my .222 OCW loads. I had 15 made. 3 of each at 18.5, 19, 19.5, 20 and 20.5grs. All 15 came back as correct on the scale.

So I done some more checking. Filled the cases all in the same manner. Trickled the powder in through powder funnel til level with the top. 2209 case held 28.6grs, 2208 28.7grs, 2207 28.4 grs. Check with both Nosler brass and Sako brass.

Cheers

[SCJ429]

That is interesting, my apologies to the RCBS balance beam scales. I should not have doubted them. Does that mean my scales are suspect?

[Am88]

That is interesting, my apologies to the RCBS balance beam scales. I should not have doubted them. Does that mean my scales are suspect?

I highly doubt that. You stated you used chargemasters and other scales as well. I'm just having some home made pizza and I will whip out the verniers and recheck the cases.

[marksman]

l have to say l use rcbs 505 and 10-10 scales and rate them both highly, l'm not having a crack at what you have been doing to find the problem though

l have been watching this thread closely to see what the problem was and dont want to intrude on the discussion but
if you want weigh a case with primer then fill it with water so the water is flush with the top of the case mouth and weigh again, take off the first case weight and you should have around 30.5 gr of water weight being the internal volume of a 222rem mag case going by quickload
l'm thinking thicker brass causing smaller internal volume

[Am88]

Hi marksman, uncanny that you were thinking that as I just finished that. Case holds 29.3grs of water. I checked case dimensions to hornadys measurements. Instead of 0.357" at the shoulder I have 0.354".

Instead of 0.375" at the base I have 0.3725"

Instead of 0.253 outside neck diameter I have 0.243.

I wonder if the cases are made to a very loose tolerance being older. I see that the mag case is meant to hold 5% more case capacity then the .223, so max of 25.5gr in .223 would make 5 percent more 26.7grs not 28grs.

[marksman]

so these are new cases not fired in your rifle

if so you will not be able to work up a load till they are fireformed to your chamber
lMHO l would do a load that will fit and fireform to your chamber
using 55gr sierra blitzkings 24gr is 101.2% full @ 3080fps for 29.3gr internal volume
l forgot and is a safe mild load

this is a roughy for quickload, you dont have to use 55gr sierra's

[Am88]

Brand spanking new cases, two 100x boxes of Sako, and a 250pk of Nosler. All from rebel gun works. Unfired as I do not even have the rifle back from Allan Swan. Rifle be be back next week at this stage hopefully. Never had a rifle I have had to fire form cases for. Bit of a pain and a waste of barrel life, powder and bullets by the sounds

[marksman]

TBH l usually only have around 100 cases per rifle because of fireforming
unless the rifle is shooting very well with the fireforming loads
you cant even sort the cases into the same average internal volume till you have fireformed
l like both brands of cases you have, the nosler should have a different internal volume than the sako cases
maybe that's worth a look at but really all cases will change internal volume after fireforming to your chamber

you could just shot 100 as sighting and running it in, work up a forming load that may shoot ok

that info from quickload was done with a 24" barrel just so you know

[Am88]

I'm starting to wonder if I just use 2207 instead and save the 2206h for the .30-30. it holds much more then the max load of 2207. Even possibly 2219 as it's hodgen equivalent seems very popular as well.

Cheers

[marksman]

with max load of 23gr of 2207 quickload shows a very overloaded load at 71626psi with the same internal volume
your max case pressure should not exede 58740psi
21.3gr of 2207 is as far as l would try at 56633psi and l would work up to that slowly, it is a fast powder

[Am88]

So that means that ADI have not only given me a powder charge of 2206H that I cannot for in the case, but also a load of 2207 that is too high, hmmm.

What about 2219? Any experience with it? Cheers

[SCJ429]

I think that 2206H is perfect for your application. As Marksman said, fire off a few cases with a light load and see what size your cases come out. If you cannot get 3200 fps out of the fire formed brass using 2206, then you can consider a faster powder. Save the 2207 for your straight walled big bore cases.

2206H is a very tolerant powder for lighter loads, if you ran 25 grains in your fire forming cases you should not have any issues.

[Oldbloke]

Straight out of the ADI manual.

reduced loads .jpg (39.15 KiB) Viewed 3675 times

Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG (72.59 KiB) Viewed 3675 times

[marksman]

l agree with SCJ429 that you would be better to use 2206h
the quickload info for 2206h is for 25.5gr max at 55614psi, 107.6% case fill, @3279fps with a 24" barrel using 55gr sierra blitzkings
l stress this is for what l would consider a max load and would start off at 24gr as l have suggested earlier but this does give you room to test an OCW
l also stress do not have your bullet touching or jammed into the lands unless you drop the powder charge a bit more for a start load and do not go to 25.5gr

the problem is in the way the case is made to small, probably this round has a few differences in chambering from maker to maker so the case manufacturers try and make one size that fits all, l have seen this in other cases eg... 303, 308 and 30-06
this cant be reversed but once fired is a perfect case for your chamber, or closer to it

the quickload info for 2219 is for 24gr max 56418psi, 98.1% case fill, @3310fps with a 24" barrel using 55gr sierra blitzkings

this problem also shows how things can go wrong looking at reloading manuals, the reason why l use quickload, with some of my cases l have no choice
quickload is not infallible or error free, it cant be because a human is putting in the data
once you have fireformed some cases and want to do an OCW test let me know and l will do a quickload extrapolation for you if you want

[marksman]

just to show you there is light at the end of the tunnel here is a post l put up about making and fireforming cases for my sons 17 ackley

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10968

but after fireforming you will need to do another OCW but you can get a good load setup for forming your cases after a run in
a question, are swan barrels hand lapped to make the final bore spec

[Cooper]

So that means that ADI have not only given me a powder charge of 2206H that I cannot for in the case, but also a load of 2207 that is too high, hmmm.

What about 2219? Any experience with it? Cheers

I’ve used 2219 a bit. Mainly in my 204 Ruger. It’s a finer powder like the Benchmark series. It might well in your application. But I’d probably start with AR2206H and if I wasn’t happy with that I’d try a Benchmark 8208. I probably wouldn’t recommend starting with AR2207. I have used in 223 and currently use it in a 222 but been a faster burning powder probably easier to get yourself into an overcharged situation.

On a separate track I have fired 222 (Remington) Rem Mag cases here and new Sako unfired cases. Next week I check the case capacity of both.

[Am88]

Thanks for that marksman that's some good info. Does make sense about the chamber's and fit. I didn't really think about that even though on one occasion I was shooting with a mate. He ran out of ammo and wanted to borrow some of my .308 reloads in his with an aftermarket barrel, they were reduced loads with 2206h and cheapest bulk ammo I used for pigs. 4 or 5 cases out of 10 got jammed and one even had to be tapped out from the top. Even though I could load them in my factory rifle just fine. Guess the chamber was a bit tight. That's a big difference between 25.5 and 28 grains from the manual.

Thanks for that Cooper. Funny you mention that as I have seen a few Americans still shooting the magnum that have good luck with 8208.

[AZZA'S HJ47]

Thanks for that marksman that's some good info. Does make sense about the chamber's and fit. I didn't really think about that even though on one occasion I was shooting with a mate. He ran out of ammo and wanted to borrow some of my .308 reloads in his with an aftermarket barrel, they were reduced loads with 2206h and cheapest bulk ammo I used for pigs. 4 or 5 cases out of 10 got jammed and one even had to be tapped out from the top. Even though I could load them in my factory rifle just fine. Guess the chamber was a bit tight. That's a big difference between 25.5 and 28 grains from the manual.

Thanks for that Cooper. Funny you mention that as I have seen a few Americans still shooting the magnum that have good luck with 8208.

Personally hace found that 8208 powder is my first point of call for anything 22 cal related. Very consistant powder love the stuff.