Differences in manuals .222mag

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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 03 Jan 2020, 9:20 pm

Brand spanking new cases, two 100x boxes of Sako, and a 250pk of Nosler. All from rebel gun works. Unfired as I do not even have the rifle back from Allan Swan. Rifle be be back next week at this stage hopefully. Never had a rifle I have had to fire form cases for. Bit of a pain and a waste of barrel life, powder and bullets by the sounds
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 03 Jan 2020, 9:32 pm

TBH l usually only have around 100 cases per rifle because of fireforming
unless the rifle is shooting very well with the fireforming loads
you cant even sort the cases into the same average internal volume till you have fireformed
l like both brands of cases you have, the nosler should have a different internal volume than the sako cases
maybe that's worth a look at but really all cases will change internal volume after fireforming to your chamber

you could just shot 100 as sighting and running it in, work up a forming load that may shoot ok

that info from quickload was done with a 24" barrel just so you know
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 03 Jan 2020, 9:57 pm

I'm starting to wonder if I just use 2207 instead and save the 2206h for the .30-30. it holds much more then the max load of 2207. Even possibly 2219 as it's hodgen equivalent seems very popular as well.

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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 03 Jan 2020, 10:28 pm

with max load of 23gr of 2207 quickload shows a very overloaded load at 71626psi with the same internal volume
your max case pressure should not exede 58740psi
21.3gr of 2207 is as far as l would try at 56633psi and l would work up to that slowly, it is a fast powder
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 04 Jan 2020, 7:04 am

So that means that ADI have not only given me a powder charge of 2206H that I cannot for in the case, but also a load of 2207 that is too high, hmmm.

What about 2219? Any experience with it? Cheers
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by SCJ429 » 04 Jan 2020, 7:47 am

I think that 2206H is perfect for your application. As Marksman said, fire off a few cases with a light load and see what size your cases come out. If you cannot get 3200 fps out of the fire formed brass using 2206, then you can consider a faster powder. Save the 2207 for your straight walled big bore cases.

2206H is a very tolerant powder for lighter loads, if you ran 25 grains in your fire forming cases you should not have any issues.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Jan 2020, 7:57 am

Straight out of the ADI manual.

reduced loads .jpg
reduced loads .jpg (39.15 KiB) Viewed 3655 times


Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG
Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG (72.59 KiB) Viewed 3655 times
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 04 Jan 2020, 10:58 am

l agree with SCJ429 that you would be better to use 2206h
the quickload info for 2206h is for 25.5gr max at 55614psi, 107.6% case fill, @3279fps with a 24" barrel using 55gr sierra blitzkings
l stress this is for what l would consider a max load and would start off at 24gr as l have suggested earlier but this does give you room to test an OCW
l also stress do not have your bullet touching or jammed into the lands unless you drop the powder charge a bit more for a start load and do not go to 25.5gr

the problem is in the way the case is made to small, probably this round has a few differences in chambering from maker to maker so the case manufacturers try and make one size that fits all, l have seen this in other cases eg... 303, 308 and 30-06
this cant be reversed but once fired is a perfect case for your chamber, or closer to it

the quickload info for 2219 is for 24gr max 56418psi, 98.1% case fill, @3310fps with a 24" barrel using 55gr sierra blitzkings

this problem also shows how things can go wrong looking at reloading manuals, the reason why l use quickload, with some of my cases l have no choice
quickload is not infallible or error free, it cant be because a human is putting in the data
once you have fireformed some cases and want to do an OCW test let me know and l will do a quickload extrapolation for you if you want :drinks:
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 04 Jan 2020, 11:13 am

just to show you there is light at the end of the tunnel here is a post l put up about making and fireforming cases for my sons 17 ackley

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10968

but after fireforming you will need to do another OCW but you can get a good load setup for forming your cases after a run in
a question, are swan barrels hand lapped to make the final bore spec :unknown:
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Cooper » 04 Jan 2020, 12:14 pm

Am88 wrote:So that means that ADI have not only given me a powder charge of 2206H that I cannot for in the case, but also a load of 2207 that is too high, hmmm.

What about 2219? Any experience with it? Cheers


I’ve used 2219 a bit. Mainly in my 204 Ruger. It’s a finer powder like the Benchmark series. It might well in your application. But I’d probably start with AR2206H and if I wasn’t happy with that I’d try a Benchmark 8208. I probably wouldn’t recommend starting with AR2207. I have used in 223 and currently use it in a 222 but been a faster burning powder probably easier to get yourself into an overcharged situation.

On a separate track I have fired 222 (Remington) Rem Mag cases here and new Sako unfired cases. Next week I check the case capacity of both.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 04 Jan 2020, 6:08 pm

Thanks for that marksman that's some good info. Does make sense about the chamber's and fit. I didn't really think about that even though on one occasion I was shooting with a mate. He ran out of ammo and wanted to borrow some of my .308 reloads in his with an aftermarket barrel, they were reduced loads with 2206h and cheapest bulk ammo I used for pigs. 4 or 5 cases out of 10 got jammed and one even had to be tapped out from the top. Even though I could load them in my factory rifle just fine. Guess the chamber was a bit tight. That's a big difference between 25.5 and 28 grains from the manual.

Thanks for that Cooper. Funny you mention that as I have seen a few Americans still shooting the magnum that have good luck with 8208.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 05 Jan 2020, 1:23 pm

Am88 wrote:Thanks for that marksman that's some good info. Does make sense about the chamber's and fit. I didn't really think about that even though on one occasion I was shooting with a mate. He ran out of ammo and wanted to borrow some of my .308 reloads in his with an aftermarket barrel, they were reduced loads with 2206h and cheapest bulk ammo I used for pigs. 4 or 5 cases out of 10 got jammed and one even had to be tapped out from the top. Even though I could load them in my factory rifle just fine. Guess the chamber was a bit tight. That's a big difference between 25.5 and 28 grains from the manual.

Thanks for that Cooper. Funny you mention that as I have seen a few Americans still shooting the magnum that have good luck with 8208.


Personally hace found that 8208 powder is my first point of call for anything 22 cal related. Very consistant powder love the stuff.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 05 Jan 2020, 1:54 pm

Alot of people I have just read this morning have had good luck with it as well. Is there other programs like quickload marksman that aren't so expensive? It's not that expensive but for I probably don't do the reloading you do
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 05 Jan 2020, 4:30 pm

Curiosity has the better of me, my wife's uncle uses 8208 in his .223 and I asked to grab some to do a trial. marksman if it is not too much of a pain could you recommend some charges according to quickload for 8208. I'm not sure how quickload works but if it is too much of a pain all good.

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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 05 Jan 2020, 4:33 pm

very sorry Am88 but my copy doesn't include 8208
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 05 Jan 2020, 8:10 pm

All good marksman. I will see if I can track down any info on the subject. There is some stuff on the Nosler forums website that could be of use. I need to go back through some magazines I think I remember sir Nick Harvey writing about it once
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by marksman » 05 Jan 2020, 8:19 pm

when looking at the reloading data just remember that your internal volume is around 4% less so your max load should be 4% to 5% less than suggested :drinks:
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Am88 » 05 Jan 2020, 9:14 pm

Will do marksman, thanks all for your help. I may do some loads up with 2006h and 8208 if I can find some food info and see how we go
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by niteowl » 30 Aug 2020, 12:30 pm

Apollo wrote:Be very careful using different reloading manual data. They are not gathered using the same circumstances, barrels, barrel length etc.

ADI and Hodgdon will allways be the same since ADI do not do any load testing at all. It's all done by Hodgdon in the USA.

So, ADI/Hodgdon, Nosler and Hornady all use different testing proceedures and would be all different for the same bullet and powder.

The only powder testing ADI do is for a new powder batch from a previous one to ensure it's withing a few percent of the same. Powder batches many batch numbers different can have a substantial variation from an old batch.

I can't see any Nosler data for H4895 currently for the .222R Magnum online. In an old reloading manual I can see IMR 4895 listed but it isn't anywhere near the same powder, different manufacturer.

I don't have access to a .222R Magnum case so I can't test anything even though I have powder scales that are very accurate and can measure the weight of one/two granules of powder.

ADI don't list 28gr of H4895 as a compressed load so something seems to be amiss somewhere.

If it were me I'd send ADI an email. They have in the past been very helpful even though slow in replying.


Apollo, you need to be careful with making statements. Unless ADI has changed their system recently, they DO carry out pressure testing. I have been there and have had special testing done in their test lab. No, they do not do this for the public, it was a special situation and reasonably expensive ($500 / 5 rounds)
The tests provide pressures for the load that would be produced in a SAAMI spec. barrel, as they are calibrated against SAAMI "reference" rounds in the actual test barrel and at a standard temperature. The results have no bearing on what you will get in your firearm.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by bladeracer » 30 Aug 2020, 1:22 pm

niteowl wrote:
Apollo wrote:Be very careful using different reloading manual data. They are not gathered using the same circumstances, barrels, barrel length etc.

ADI and Hodgdon will allways be the same since ADI do not do any load testing at all. It's all done by Hodgdon in the USA.

So, ADI/Hodgdon, Nosler and Hornady all use different testing proceedures and would be all different for the same bullet and powder.

The only powder testing ADI do is for a new powder batch from a previous one to ensure it's withing a few percent of the same. Powder batches many batch numbers different can have a substantial variation from an old batch.

I can't see any Nosler data for H4895 currently for the .222R Magnum online. In an old reloading manual I can see IMR 4895 listed but it isn't anywhere near the same powder, different manufacturer.

I don't have access to a .222R Magnum case so I can't test anything even though I have powder scales that are very accurate and can measure the weight of one/two granules of powder.

ADI don't list 28gr of H4895 as a compressed load so something seems to be amiss somewhere.

If it were me I'd send ADI an email. They have in the past been very helpful even though slow in replying.


Apollo, you need to be careful with making statements. Unless ADI has changed their system recently, they DO carry out pressure testing. I have been there and have had special testing done in their test lab. No, they do not do this for the public, it was a special situation and reasonably expensive ($500 / 5 rounds)
The tests provide pressures for the load that would be produced in a SAAMI spec. barrel, as they are calibrated against SAAMI "reference" rounds in the actual test barrel and at a standard temperature. The results have no bearing on what you will get in your firearm.


They did a custom test for you but does that correlate to them having done all the load development they list, including the stuff that doesn't make sense and is clearly not from actual testing?
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by niteowl » 30 Aug 2020, 5:12 pm

No Mate, they have a full testing lab and many barrels all fitted with crystal transducers. You are correct to a degree, they do not do all of the cartridges listed in their manual, as not many, if any manufacturer does, they all share info with each other. The test was not a "custom" test in the real sense, a long story how and why it all came about. The test data was then analyzed in the office by the two techs involved and one, who offered some passing advice to find the anomaly in the results I had already found. My main test device was compared to theirs and found to be as accurate as their device. (Not the one that an Australian "Guru" raves about, that one has proved to EXTREMELY unreliable and inaccurate!)
As mentioned all tests are referenced back to SAAMI specs.
A side line to the tests, I had a one on one tour of the whole factory in full production, which in itself was worth the trip over from WA.
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Re: Differences in manuals .222mag

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Aug 2020, 12:47 pm

"Unless ADI has changed their system recently, they DO carry out pressure testing."

Correct. They have shooting range/tunnel.
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