Shooting Berger 168s with a 7mm08

[SCJ429]

A friend wanted to do some longer range shooting with his Tikka T3X Varmint, he is using Lapua 7mm08 brass and Berger 168 grain Target VLD part #28401. I assembled the load using CCI BR2 primers and 2209 powder. The 308 can easily shoot 168 grain bullets faster than 2700 fps but the 7mm is only listed as being able to shoot them at 2550. The 7mm bullet has a better BC of 0.628. He uses the standard Tupperware stock and a bipod.

We easily got to 2550 fps and pushed on to 2650 where we found a node. The rifle showed no pressure signs until 2748 fps with another possible node just short of that. Any more speed showed an extractor mark on the case head so we left it at that.

Next load test we will look at the node at 2650 and at 2740, the group at 2740 had an ES of 9 and a SD of 5.3. A promising start and the little Tikka shot some excellent groups despite the windy conditions, best group was 0.287.

[in2anity]

Good shooting - I always find the VLDs a little tricky to group, and end up back on the Sierras. Or even a flat base for closer ranges.

[SCJ429]

He wants to shoot from 500 and onwards so I need all the BC and speed I can get. I loaded them off the lands to see what speeds I can get but will try some deeper seating depths, jam, when we settle on a powder charge. The groups he shot were not bad considering the gusty winds with most groups around 0.600 and some of that was horizontal dispersion.

Has anyone used Sierra MK in a 7mm08 and what speeds did you get out of them?

[Gamerancher]

A lot of us who shoot 7-08 for silhouette use the 168gr SMK with 45gr of 2209 powder for the 500m rams. I've yet to see a rifle that wont handle that load or shoot accurately with it. ( sub MOA ) Velocity is usually around 2500 -2600 f/s, may not be what you are looking for, just giving you an actual, not theoretical, account.
As always with any load data given, start lower and work up in your rifle, checking for pressure signs as you go.

[SCJ429]

That is interesting, I can see a possible node about 2650 and perhaps another @ 2740 fps, both are over 45 grains. What speed are you getting good accuracy with your SMK?

[in2anity]

That is interesting, I can see a possible node about 2650 and perhaps another @ 2740 fps, both are over 45 grains. What speed are you getting good accuracy with your SMK?

Correct me if I’m wrong GR, but benchrest or f-class priorities are a bit insignificant for silhouette SCJ. The way a lot of silhouette shooters look at things is vastly simpler; a bullet+powder either groups or it doesn’t. 2 moa is about the best a top shooter can achieve from standing offhand - so chasing such accuracy and all that precision reloading stuff is within the realms of “theoretical” rather than actual...

[groundhog]

Correct me if I’m wrong GR, but benchrest or f-class priorities are a bit insignificant for silhouette SCJ. The way a lot of silhouette shooters look at things is vastly simpler; a bullet+powder either groups or it doesn’t. 2 moa is about the best a top shooter can achieve from standing offhand - so chasing such accuracy and all that precision reloading stuff is within the realms of “theoretical” rather than actual...

I can assure you that no-one in the Silhouette shooting community isn't chasing a sub MOA load. As for the best shooters achieving a 2 moa group off hand, when there are shooters who take 8-9 rams with a 6 or 6.5BR so have an aiming mark that is a 6 inch circle high on the rams butt and who have a fun practice before the match head shooting Turkeys they are definitely achieving accuracy greater than 2 MOA.

[Gamerancher]

WTF in2anity??? Have you ever shot high-power silhouette? Having spotted for the best shooters in the country I can tell you that they can shoot far better 2 moa "off-hand".
Give them a bullet splash to aim at and they can put a shot either on top of it or within an inch when they are having a good day.
It would be a waste of time heading to a match with a rifle shooting a load that wasn't accurate. Competitive shooters put a lot of load development in to make sure that their shots will land at point of aim. Shooting off-hand adds to the degree of difficulty of making good shots, not having an accurate load would multiply the difficulty enormously. While not being quite "bench-rest" accuracy, I can tell you that our rifles 'aint far from it.
There is nothing theoretical about making sure that that the load you are using is accurate, we do a lot of bench-work to achieve this. The requirement for a good silhouette load not only involves it being accurate, but we also need enough retained energy to knock down the target, for 500m rams that is >1000ft/lb of energy for consistent knock-down. Without that minimum retained energy, you have a smaller area of the ram to hit that will make it fall.
The top shooters in the U.S are using smaller and smaller chamberings , ( 6mmBR for eg. ), to get rid of recoil, then shooting at specific spots on the 500m ram targets, ( head or top of rump ) to knock them down, purely due to the lower energy their round has. You can't do that without having a very accurate load. Having officiated at the NRA National matches, I can tell you that those shooters that are winning, can put 5 shots onto rams that could be covered with a playing card, that's well below 2moa, hell, it's less than 1moa.
Our best Aussie silhouette shooter actually won the NRA High -power Nationals last year.

[Stix]

Correct me if I’m wrong GR, but benchrest or f-class priorities are a bit insignificant for silhouette SCJ. The way a lot of silhouette shooters look at things is vastly simpler; a bullet+powder either groups or it doesn’t. 2 moa is about the best a top shooter can achieve from standing offhand - so chasing such accuracy and all that precision reloading stuff is within the realms of “theoretical” rather than actual...

Not sure what your point is there in2...
t sounds like you're suggesting you dont need the accuracy of that discipline...?


Id say accuracy is paramount full stop...

The reason we chase accuracy is because it is a constant, & good shooting is all about removing variables...
So as all the disciplines of shooting (that i know of anyway), are rewarded on accuracy, which requires us to be as consistant as possible with each shot, i dont see how any given shooter in any discipline wouldnt want the most accuracy they could get...

For example, i cant see why someone would add an MOA to their accuracy (or do i mean subtract... ) if trying to shoot anything at any range from any position...not to mention a target at 500yds...
I cant see how reducing group size by 5" at 500yds wouldnt be of want or benefit to any shooter.

[in2anity]

I can assure you that no-one in the Silhouette shooting community isn't chasing a sub MOA load. As for the best shooters achieving a 2 moa group off hand, when there are shooters who take 8-9 rams with a 6 or 6.5BR so have an aiming mark that is a 6 inch circle high on the rams butt and who have a fun practice before the match head shooting Turkeys they are definitely achieving accuracy greater than 2 MOA.

fair enough groundhog - i stand corrected - that is impressive. I've personally never seen anyone who can consistently hit the turkey in the head. but then again, i've never been to snowball or any kind of championship either. i've only ever shot club level. as you well know the rams are approx a 25" target @ 500m - just because the inner aiming ring is 6" doesn't mean your average silhouette shooter is consistently holding that group... i don't doubt the shooters you rub shoulders are mostly master, but that's a pretty small percentage. not a whole lot of those where i used to shoot. i'm more commenting WRT to us laymen folk.

Getting back to comments re chasing accuracy - i'm shooting Service and Non-Service these days anyway - basically sling shooting from the 3-ps out to 400m - and even with a sling I know accuracy much past around 2moa is lost on me. And similarly, my club buds don't get too caught up on the whole "sub MOA" idea - we are looking more along the lines of "will it group?"

[in2anity]

WTF in2anity??? Have you ever shot high-power silhouette? Having spotted for the best shooters in the country I can tell you that they can shoot far better 2 moa "off-hand".
Give them a bullet splash to aim at and they can put a shot either on top of it or within an inch when they are having a good day.
It would be a waste of time heading to a match with a rifle shooting a load that wasn't accurate. Competitive shooters put a lot of load development in to make sure that their shots will land at point of aim. Shooting off-hand adds to the degree of difficulty of making good shots, not having an accurate load would multiply the difficulty enormously. While not being quite "bench-rest" accuracy, I can tell you that our rifles 'aint far from it.
There is nothing theoretical about making sure that that the load you are using is accurate, we do a lot of bench-work to achieve this. The requirement for a good silhouette load not only involves it being accurate, but we also need enough retained energy to knock down the target, for 500m rams that is >1000ft/lb of energy for consistent knock-down. Without that minimum retained energy, you have a smaller area of the ram to hit that will make it fall.
The top shooters in the U.S are using smaller and smaller chamberings , ( 6mmBR for eg. ), to get rid of recoil, then shooting at specific spots on the 500m ram targets, ( head or top of rump ) to knock them down, purely due to the lower energy their round has. You can't do that without having a very accurate load. Having officiated at the NRA National matches, I can tell you that those shooters that are winning, can put 5 shots onto rams that could be covered with a playing card, that's well below 2moa, hell, it's less than 1moa.
Our best Aussie silhouette shooter actually won the NRA High -power Nationals last year.

Ok settle down GR no need to get your knickers in a knot again - you're right, i've only shot high power a couple of times. I've shot a heap more RMS. Like i just said - hardly any master grades where i used to shoot. I get what you're saying - the best silhouette shooters can realize sub moa. I CONCEDE - CALM DOWN that's news to me. To be fair, that is why I said

Correct me if I'm wrong GR...

.

All I'm saying is the whole benchrest style, precision reloading mantra is not nearly as important to silhoutte shooters. Maybe i"m completely off...

[in2anity]

Not sure what your point is there in2...
t sounds like you're suggesting you dont need the accuracy of that discipline...?


Id say accuracy is paramount full stop...

Yeah of course Stix - If only for the psychological aspects, yeah you generally go for the best groups. But if I were shooting f-class, i'd probably be paying very close attention to my reloads, and ladder testing, and the highest-quality consumables. And obviously finding that ideal node.

Wheres for me shooting offhand or sling, I know most error comes from me (or my inability to read the wind), not my equipment. So I don't get too caught up with those intricate details these days - as long as I know my load has the potential to consistently group into the V ring (or knock the silhouette), then the load is "working" for me.

That's all I was trying to say...

Getting back to OP - that's why I like the SMKs - they just work.

Sorry SCJ this thread's getting a little hot - wasn't trying to start s**t. Think i'll retreat with my tail between my legs at this point.

[Stix]

I wasnt having a crack at you In2, nor was i getting heated...

I get told what is important to me by experts all the time...like the need for anything better than MOA for hunting is a wasteful & unnecessary...
And its always funny to note that many of these people, not all, but a good many cant head shoot a rabbit at 200 yds...which is what i like to do...

So I was just questioning the basis of theory where the best accuracy isn't necessary or chased for an accuracy based game/sport
...thats all...
& while i understand where youre coming from, the psycological aspect of the improvement is only a bonus to superiour accuracy.. a miss by quarter MOA would be a hit if the rifle were only half MOA more accurate, this will give you a more refined scope to make adjustments to/give you a more accurate determination of what is your skills & what is the rifle/ammo combo.

I just got the impression you are/were understating the importance of accuracy...not trying to be a smartarse...

&, i didnt see the other 2 posts before me either...

[in2anity]

I wasnt having a crack at you In2, nor was i getting heated...

I get told what is important to me by experts all the time...like the need for anything better than MOA for hunting is a wasteful & unnecessary...
And its always funny to note that many of these people, not all, but a good many cant head shoot a rabbit at 200 yds...which is what i like to do...

So I was just questioning the basis of theory where the best accuracy isn't necessary or chased for an accuracy based game/sport
...thats all...

& for what its worth, i didnt see the other 2 posts before me either...

That's a very valid point mate - and FWIW i've never headshot a rabbit at 200m But the way i look at it, the types of shooting I do puts a lot of responsibility on physical technique and ability, so WRT to handloading I know chasing the pointy end of the spectrum (whilst certainly adding value) is for me a diminishing return on investment. Say I dropped a point or two because of an imperfect handload, at the savings of hours at the reloading bench, or hours at the range trying different recipes, that's a sensible trade-off for me. Besides, there's always next week, where perhaps you might gain a point due to an imperfect handload

To each to their own - I guess it really depends on your own personal requirements and abilities.

[Stix]

No worries...
Yes, at the end of the day, i think the true lovers of the shooting sports are only shooting against themselves...

I love seeing someone succeed, pull off a great shot or group, consistantly bust clays, shoot well at whatever they are shooting at...& thus i cant stand the types that are not encouraging & whom get a kick out of someone not doing so well--especially by just dismissing their efforts as not being anywhere skilled enough.

So yes, we all have our accepted scope of accuracy for what we are doing...

Ive see a very happy guy claim his 243 is dead-eye-dik & ready to go for a goat hunt after it was sighted in with an 8" group at either 50 or 100...& im unhappy if mine shoots an inch at 100...

[Bill]

Gamerancher interesting stuff re the Silhouette, having a chat to one of the fella's at the range last year and he was using 139gr out of his Howa mini 6.5 Grendel which comes up short on energy you mentioned for 500m (850ftlb). Thoughts on the Grendel, have you seen anyone using one successfully ?

[in2anity]

Stix do you know what I also compare it with - i shot smallbore a long time ago - and there's always the shooters with the 54 Annie shooting ammo at $20 a box. Yet they couldn't score a root in a brothel. Then along comes old Johnny veteran with his old sportco + cheap ammo and whips the pants of everyone...

[Gamerancher]

Bill, short answer, no.

Long answer,
In years gone by, the "norm" was a .308, then came the 7mm's, next the 6.5mm's, now it's getting down to 6mm chamberings. Mostly with the aim of reducing recoil, although with modern bullet development the flight characteristics play a part also.
When you're shooting an 80 shot match, recoil fatigue is one of the biggest destroyers of accuracy. To get the advantage of these smaller rounds, you need them to be super accurate and you need to be able to shoot very well. I don't know of any "top" shooters, here or in the U.S, that use a Grendel. Those top shooters who are using the smaller cartridges are using BR type or the 6 / 6.5 x 47 chamberings. This is not a hard and fast rule however, there are a few who still shoot the larger rounds and do so well.
I've seen a few people try the 6.5 Grendel, but it lacks the punch to reliably take down the rams unless they can be consistently hit in a spot that works.
( head/horn or top of the rump ) Those I know that have used it do so purely for the reduced recoil, usually as a rifle for a junior or they have a physical condition that makes a harder recoiling round not for them. The only others I have encountered were people trying to save a bit of money when getting into the sport. ( There are some quite good shooting rifles chambered in the 6.5 Grendal to be had in the lower priced selection. )
Others have tried it and been disappointed when they hit rams and they don't fall. Mind you, that applies to all of us, no matter what you shoot.

[SCJ429]

I am guilty of turning a rifle that can shoot 1/4 MOA off the bench into a 6 MOA rifle with me shooting offhand. I tried using a 7mm BR in Metallic silhouette but 500 metres is a long way.

I am interested in what speeds guys are finding a node shooting a 7mm with a 168 grain bullet, must be someone with some success with speeds above 2600 fps.

[Bill]

thanks for the response Gamerancher, yeah the older fella who I spoke too was probably only 65kg or so, so I guess recoil part comes into