To neck size only?

[Sergeant Hartman]

I agree with you Bill... but i target not confuse him to much hehe

[straightshooter]

Your Parker Hale will likely be built on a quite strong M98 action but nevertheless the answer to your question will as always contain the word "depends".
In your case hot loads, largish headspace or soft brass might mean the need to FLS.
If and when you do only necksize then test chamber by feeding your reloads from the magazine before going on your hunting trip to ensure there will be no problems.
You can safely do that by removing the cocking piece and firing assembly which is easily done without tools. If you don't know how then there are likely plenty of youtube videos showing how it's done.
DON'T BE TEMPTED TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY.

[Oldbloke]

Seems I have been corrected. Cant say I have personnally tested the accuracy side of it.

[Gamerancher]

Bill wrote, "I recently saw a video and every single champion shooter in the states was FLS, obviously they run tighter tolerances."

Really? Every champion shooter? Please put up a link to this video.
I only ask as the U.S National Champions that I personally know and shoot with over there, don't!

[SCJ429]

Seems I have been corrected. Cant say I have personnally tested the accuracy side of it.

I don't think that you are wrong, the problem with FLS is there are more possibilities to get things wrong because you are moving more brass. If you use quality dies, there is no reason that you cannot produce very straight and accurate ammo but no better than the best neck sized ammo. To many people FLS mean using cheap dies with expander mandrels which may bend the neck producing runout.

I neck sized some brass twelve times before using a small base body die to size the web of the case. The rifle had a tight chamber and the cases only had to be trimmed once. I also reloaded some 7mm Rem Mag brass four times without using any sort of sizing die because I was waiting for the dies to arrive from the US. The brass was cheap Barnes headstamped and had no issues in feeding through a factory cut chamber.

[bladeracer]

Seems I have been corrected. Cant say I have personnally tested the accuracy side of it.

I haven't noticed any difference in accuracy, but I do see a significant increase in velocity with FLS brass due to their reduced volume, and I only FLS enough to allow them to chamber, just bumping the shoulder back. If you were loading within a narrow accuracy mode, the velocity difference could certainly push the bumped loads out of it.

I run the batch of brass through the chamber before sizing, setting aside any that are starting to resist. Those get bumped just enough to chamber nicely. When there are enough tight cases I'll bump them and load them up. I don't try to track how many times a case has been fired, I just separate them into those that still chamber and those that are getting tight.

After bumping, the cases or rounds go into a separate ammo box, the ones that don't need bumping go back into the first boxes. When I start shooting the bumped ones they go back into the first boxes. I have shot them together, but haven't seen any significant change at the target.

[Stix]

Is this reality thou mate?

I recently saw a video and every single champion shooter in the states was FLS, obviously they run tighter tolerances.

I've recently gone back to FLS and to be honest I not noticed a decrease in accurcay

Maybe the dies they were using were exact replicas of the given rifles chamber, so any sizing had negligable/no changes to case volume.

Out of curiosity Bill, if you've got not shift either way in accuracy, ehy continue to FLSize...?

I just ask because to me, the least amount of work at the bench the better, & FL sizing means more cleaning drying & annealing brass...not to mention the case life reduction from FL sizing.

So im curious why you'd continue to fl size & not neck size if you getting the same accuracy.?

[Stix]

Ok i will go with the majority & buy the deluxe set will probably be the cheapest in the long run & gives me all the options.Thanks for your input.

Thats the way to go mate...whether you need the FLSizing die for a while, or ever, atleast you have it.
You can also learn with it for the time you do need it.

The only thing ill add the great info you've already got, is in my opinion, dont neck size before you test chamber the cases.
I cant see how the case neck can be of a wider diameter than that in the chamber after theyve been fired, so test them for tighness before you re-size them in any way...
That way, if you need to FL size them, you havnt wasted time neck sizing first, & not unnecessarily working the brass.

Also, im not a fan of test feeding empty cases ftom the magazine...i think you're better served to place each case in the ejection port & tip the rifle so the case falls part way into the chamber, then close the bolt.

Although feeding empties from the mag is more fun, you'll run the risk of damaging the necks when feeding that way...so be careful if you do it.

[Bill]

Stix I don't mind wringing all the speed possible out of my handloads, I guess atleast I know cases will chamber everytime.

Gamerancher I'll see if I can locate the video later

[KMA]

If what you are doing works, keep on doing it.Like a lot of things to do with shooting it probably depends on what you do .Hunt or target shoot.I have ordered online the 4 die set in 243.Just for interest i will reload some fls & some neck sized& see if i can spot a difference.The rifle is 40 years old &does have some minor pitting in the barrel but still shoots osa ammo under 30mm group.

[marksman]

Is this reality thou mate?

I recently saw a video and every single champion shooter in the states was FLS, obviously they run tighter tolerances.

I've recently gone back to FLS and to be honest I not noticed a decrease in accurcay

believe me Bill l'm not having a crack at you
but the problem with making statements like this is the full story isn't being told
the average reloader will not get better shooting precision with the off the shelf type FLS wobble die, ever, and that's not a theory
the average reloader will not pay the price for the FLSing dies needed for this precision, do the extra work involved or have the other tools necessary
the average reloader shooter will not have a precision made firearm to see the difference
l have done a post a while ago on this subject showing how to do this but it was a while ago and l dont have time to find it
l do not 100% agree with this guy and actually think he is a bit full on but anyway l think this is the link you are looking for

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... is-better/

edit: l forgot to add the methods these comp shooters are using will not make your FLS cases any more reliable with less feeding problems
the idea is for you reloads to be more consistent

[Bill]

Bill wrote, "I recently saw a video and every single champion shooter in the states was FLS, obviously they run tighter tolerances."

Really? Every champion shooter? Please put up a link to this video.
I only ask as the U.S National Champions that I personally know and shoot with over there, don't!

Hey I was in the just bump as little as possible camp like you as that was what the guys at the range recommended to get best the best accuracy and brass life, Ive since changed my ways after watching this video only last year

https://youtu.be/lLG2kSrD40g

https://youtu.be/vaqg4sJvg24

Marksman I see that you found Erik Cortina, like I said they all FLS

[in2anity]

Wow there’s some bollocks in this thread which I’m finding hard to comprehend. Overwhelming service rifle shooters in Sydney neck size, then bump or FLS when the round becomes hard to chamber, and that’s on some pretty ancient old service rifles with very liberal headspace... but also state of the art rifles. Everyone only fls’ when your brass is telling you so. And it’s mostly driven by brass preservation. 12 reloads in an SMLE vs 5

[Bill]

wheres the bollocks in2anity that you dont comphrehend ? Like I said for years I thought tight bolt on the way down and up was a good thing

in2anity did you watch either video, esp the 2nd 1 ??

I now set my FLS dies up to give the whole body just the slightest bump so that there is zero resistance closing the bolt, works for me and I dont mind prepping brass but I only shoot 15-20 times a year.

[sungazer]

Well the Australian F class team won the world championships in Canada. Then the TR Team won the World Championships in NZ last year. We have the individual World Champion in F open and TR. So why ask what the Americans do? Ask what the winners do.

[in2anity]

wheres the bollocks in2anity that you dont comphrehend ? Like I said for years I thought tight bolt on the way down and up was a good thing

in2anity did you watch either video, esp the 2nd 1 ??

I now set my FLS dies up to give the whole body just the slightest bump so that there is zero resistance closing the bolt, works for me and I dont mind prepping brass but I only shoot 15-20 times a year.

Notice they are all benchrest or f-class shooters, the only place where true mechanical accuracy is approached. Shoot fullbore, or service, or field positional, or metallic silhouette, and the poofteenth accuracy gains are essentially lost. Yet your brass life is greatly extended, more than doubled in some guns. Not to mention the lack of lubing means the cleaning step is avoided. 4/5 reloads I can turn my brass around in a fraction of the time compared with bumping/FLSing. And that’s a big factor when you’re competing regularly. I’d rather be spending my spare time drilling to improve my technique.

[Bill]

yeah I get that the cleaning process is avoided in2anity, something I actually enjoying doing, I cleaned and prepped 200 once fired cases Grendel cases last week infront of the tele

[Bill]

Well the Australian F class team won the world championships in Canada. Then the TR Team won the World Championships in NZ last year. We have the individual World Champion in F open and TR. So why ask what the Americans do? Ask what the winners do.

I'll ask an old mate who shoots with a few long range boyz what they do next time I see him

[in2anity]

yeah I get that the cleaning process is avoided in2anity, something I actually enjoying doing, I cleaned and prepped 200 once fired cases Grendel cases last week infront of the tele

Yeah well the novelty wears off, especially when your necks start splitting and you gotta fork out the cash.

[marksman]

here is a bit of an explanation about why you would FLS although if you dont remove your extractor or firing pin you will not get a proper feel and lMHO are really guessing and not getting a really precise measurement, you need no resistance at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnsuVBwbNJo&t=444s

and l found the old thread l put up viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11560

as l said earlier this has nothing to do with being more reliable when feeding cases it is about more consistency and getting your projectile in line with the bore exactly the same every time

[Sergeant Hartman]

As i said, this will confused the poor guy and open a can of worms.

On the other hand you can get forster bump bushing neck sizing dies

[marksman]

you need to watch the posted vids ziad
these guys are saying not to neck size or bump shoulders

[Gamerancher]

Bill, I watched your videos, not going to doubt what those fellas do, I was questioning the statement you made, " every single National Champion", there are more events than just F-class and benchrest. ( Which is what the sample of shooters are all about )
The events I shoot in are worlds apart from those and like I said, a lot of the National Champions, ( we are talking U.S.A here ) , in these events don't F.L.S.
Be very careful with generalisations.

[Bill]

Im glad you took the time to watch the video gamerancher, like i said none of use are too old to learn new ways

[Gamerancher]

For what it's worth, I do a bit of both, depending on which rifle, what I'm loading for, competition or hunting, which cases, what they did last, what works best in a particular rifle/barrel, etc.etc.... There 'ain't no hard and fast rules when it comes to the finer points of reloading.
As for the argument that full length sizing reduces the lifespan of brass, I've got .222 brass that was run with very high velocity loads and reloaded 20+ times, FLS every time, never annealed and lost maybe 2 out of 400 cases. Some of that brass was then used to make brass for my 300 Whisper.
I've got over 400 pieces 7-08 brass that has only ever been neck-sized and have lost about 10% of that to split necks after less than 10 reloads and running somewhat mild loads.
The quality of the brass, fit to chamber, quality of the dies, dimensions of dies relative to chamber, loads used, along with many other factors play a role in this.
Generalisations cannot be applied when it comes to these things.

In my experience, the Yanks are a bunch of followers, whatever the bloke that wins this year used and did, you can back it in a whole bunch will copy that next time around. Not sayin' it doesn't work, just sayin'.

[marksman]

"In my experience, the Yanks are a bunch of followers, whatever the bloke that wins this year used and did, you can back it in a whole bunch will copy that next time around. Not sayin' it doesn't work, just sayin'."


l've heard and read that from that many high class shooters, barrel manufacturers, gunsmiths ect its not funny and l agree

[in2anity]

Bill, I watched your videos ...
Be very careful with generalisations.

So on the one hand, you’re telling people not to generalize, then on the other you’re summing up an entire country of people in a sentence:

the Yanks are a bunch of followers.

Bit of the “pot calling the kettle black” there bud. Just sayin. jokes jokes

[SCJ429]

Generally copying what successful people are doing is a good strategy. For me, neck sizing works and I do see the need to FLS very often. If my life depended on reliable feeding, I would FLS, even at the cost of some accuracy. If you want to FLS and it does not cost any accuracy, then why not.

[Gamerancher]

Not really Bill, "in my experience" isn't a generalisation, just a statement of my "experience", but nicely taken out of context anyway. Tell me, do you work for the mainstream media?

[Bill]

Say what ?, I think In2anity was questioning you mate......

And no I'm a technical consultant