Brass differences - significant?

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Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Apr 2020, 4:12 pm

Thanks to CV - I’ve exhausted my top end brass and I’m now left looking at mountains of older, lesser quality brass that has been fired in my rifles and need neck sizing / trimming at minimum.

So my question - how much difference is there really in shooting brass that is effectively chamber sized ?
Is there going to be any discernible real world difference between lapua and say Remington brass - everything else being equal ??
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by bladeracer » 02 Apr 2020, 4:22 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Thanks to CV - I’ve exhausted my top end brass and I’m now left looking at mountains of older, lesser quality brass that has been fired in my rifles and need neck sizing / trimming at minimum.

So my question - how much difference is there really in shooting brass that is effectively chamber sized ?
Is there going to be any discernible real world difference between lapua and say Remington brass - everything else being equal ??



Being fireformed to the chamber doesn't change the thickness of the brass, if one has less volume than another it will still have less volume.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by VICHunter » 02 Apr 2020, 5:27 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Is there going to be any discernible real world difference between lapua and say Remington brass - everything else being equal ??


What are you shooting, mate?

I assume general use type stuff... fun paper punching? hunting?

I imagine competitive shooting isn't on the agenda for this brass, true?
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by Blr243 » 02 Apr 2020, 5:29 pm

Not that it will bother me but just out of curiosity has anyone ever found real big differences in the volume to the point where differences could affect accuracy or poi. Eg in a 3006 case could a thick ppu case have one or two per cent less volume available than another brand ? Or are the volume differences smaller eg a quarter of a per cent ? Sorry for the hijack
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by SCJ429 » 02 Apr 2020, 5:47 pm

There can be significant differences between brands of brass that may push you out of your node. This is quite easy to correct. The problem with brass like Remington is the variations between individual pieces of brass within your batch and the amount of culling you have to do to get them shooting the same velocity consistently.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by bladeracer » 02 Apr 2020, 5:52 pm

Blr243 wrote:Not that it will bother me but just out of curiosity has anyone ever found real big differences in the volume to the point where differences could affect accuracy or poi. Eg in a 3006 case could a thick ppu case have one or two per cent less volume available than another brand ? Or are the volume differences smaller eg a quarter of a per cent ? Sorry for the hijack


I've measured 100fps difference between neck-sized and shoulder-bumped .223Rem, in the same cases, so it can certainly make enough difference.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Apr 2020, 5:55 pm

What are you shooting, mate?

I assume general use type stuff... fun paper punching? hunting?

I imagine competitive shooting isn't on the agenda for this brass, true?


Correct - I’m far from a competitive shooter. Paper fun / friendly comps and hunting.
maybe, if I batch weigh the old brass, it might add some consistency.
Just reloading during this down time and I had some older brass to the side...
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by marksman » 02 Apr 2020, 6:00 pm

SCJ429 wrote:There can be significant differences between brands of brass that may push you out of your node. This is quite easy to correct. The problem with brass like Remington is the variations between individual pieces of brass within your batch and the amount of culling you have to do to get them shooting the same velocity consistently.


+1 :thumbsup:
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by Barrettmr » 02 Apr 2020, 10:21 pm

I shoot around 5 different brands of brass in my 223 and the only one that is significantly different is s&b were 25 gr is compressed and all the others are loose. Luckily I only have a couple of them so next time around I will cull them.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by VICHunter » 03 Apr 2020, 9:29 am

bladeracer wrote:I've measured 100fps difference between neck-sized and shoulder-bumped .223Rem, in the same cases, so it can certainly make enough difference.


I'd counter that by saying "enough difference" for what though?

1000 yard F-Class, sure, 100fps different is going to have a huge impact.

Game hunting (at any realistic distance), effectively none.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by Gamerancher » 03 Apr 2020, 9:33 am

For plinking ammo, unless you are loading up to maximum pressures, it will make 5/8ths of f-all difference.
If you are talking competition benchrest conditions with everything going right of course you will see differences.
If it has all been fired in your rifle, back your full length sizing die out 1 turn, run it all through it, load up and shoot.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by bladeracer » 03 Apr 2020, 2:00 pm

VICHunter wrote:I'd counter that by saying "enough difference" for what though?

1000 yard F-Class, sure, 100fps different is going to have a huge impact.

Game hunting (at any realistic distance), effectively none.


Agreed, but he hadn't told us what he was loading for at that point :-)
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by SCJ429 » 03 Apr 2020, 4:14 pm

I would say that 100 fps is a huge variation even for slapped together hunting ammo. If I have an ES over 20 for plinking ammo I look for improvements. I have big bores that can shoot ES of 20 fps or better.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by Oldbloke » 03 Apr 2020, 4:20 pm

VICHunter wrote:
I'd counter that by saying "enough difference" for what though?

1000 yard F-Class, sure, 100fps different is going to have a huge impact.

Game hunting (at any realistic distance), effectively none.



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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Apr 2020, 5:07 pm

I guess, based on what ppl have offered up - I’ll load up the ole brass, batch weigh what I have to try and minimise variance and keep these older reloads seperate to the top end brass.
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ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by marksman » 03 Apr 2020, 6:33 pm

it does depend on how precise you want to be, for what l am involved with l cant make slip ups or l dont get to come back
1/2 inch at 200 is a miss maybe :unknown: no wounding or gut shots :thumbsup:
l also put that degree of precision into recreational hunting, you practice like you hunt you hunt like you practice

IMO if you think "its a hunting rig not a comp rifle" you are going for second best

batch weighing is not as good as volume weighing Tassie, since l know you have plenty of time on your hands :lol: :drinks:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10636
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by bladeracer » 03 Apr 2020, 6:46 pm

SCJ429 wrote:I would say that 100 fps is a huge variation even for slapped together hunting ammo. If I have an ES over 20 for plinking ammo I look for improvements. I have big bores that can shoot ES of 20 fps or better.


I didn't do any development with the load as it was purely a test for case life, comparing neck-sized with bumping. Load was 26.5gn of AR2206H behind the 55gn SuperRoo. I didn't measure velocity with the first test. The second test firing gave me a mean of 3233fps ES 39fps neck-sized, 3326fps ES 67fps shoulder-bumped.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Apr 2020, 7:31 pm

marksman wrote:it does depend on how precise you want to be, for what l am involved with l cant make slip ups or l dont get to come back
1/2 inch at 200 is a miss maybe :unknown: no wounding or gut shots :thumbsup:
l also put that degree of precision into recreational hunting, you practice like you hunt you hunt like you practice

IMO if you think "its a hunting rig not a comp rifle" you are going for second best

batch weighing is not as good as volume weighing Tassie, since l know you have plenty of time on your hands :lol: :drinks:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10636


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Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by GQshayne » 03 Apr 2020, 8:25 pm

Over the years I had accumulated a number of different brands of .243 brass. Like you by the sounds of it. So I measured each brand with water and then put them in a few different piles according to capacity. Some were close, so I matched them together for use in my BLR. But I managed to get enough of one brand for a batch of 50 or more, to keep them separate for more accuracy in my Tikka .243. I forget the measurements, bit highest to lowest was quite a lot, more than I expected.
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by marksman » 03 Apr 2020, 10:02 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

its not for the faint at heart :thumbsup:
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by rustypic » 06 Apr 2020, 8:17 pm

Hey Tiger,
I guess it just makes sense, we pain over loads and test test test again, we check the case in the rifle, resize and trim, clean and ream primer pockets, de-burr and champfer case necks, analyze over bullet jump OAL, ya know what I'm saying. So if case capacity is that different we probably should check them especially when we are loading up, could be the difference between a compressed or not, powder charge. I am most times that anal, I weigh the charge with digital scales then check it on my trusty old mechanical scales. This is something I never thought about, opened my eyes hey.
I wondered why the ball was getting bigger. Then it hit me.

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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 06 Apr 2020, 8:34 pm

Hey rusty, I agree 100%...now...
I kind of always wondered why some brass prices were so different - I mean $250 at times for 100 lapua cases vs $50 for 100 of...other stuff.
But as SC and MM and others pointed out, 100 FPS could be a few inches at a couple hundred. I didn’t think it would be that great tbh.
Was an interesting exercise filling with water - even the lap cases varied by 9% and some Winchester brass, I’ve discarded. It’s quite amazing - because looking at it - you wouldn’t know there’s any difference....
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by Blr243 » 06 Apr 2020, 9:18 pm

TT. Did u really mean 9 per cent volume difference. Or .9 per cent diff.?
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Re: Brass differences - significant?

Post by TassieTiger » 06 Apr 2020, 9:52 pm

From memory the max lap was weighing in 210 and the lowest lap was 194 but incredibly it was - again from poor memory - 220 to 178in the win. This is with 30-06. Cases side by side - look the bloody same.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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