Load development - getting lost

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Apr 2020, 5:45 pm

I’ve seen previously, how easy it can be to get lost in load development but today has me buggered.
300 wm - elite bushnell 6500 4-30 / 50 scope at 120m.
Last time I shot this rifle, I shot a 1/2 inch group using 68gns and a friend shot a 1/4 group with 66,0 gns.

So - I decided to load up 16 shots of 66 and 16 shots of 68 and what ever stood out, I’d concentrate on further development.

Four shooters - 2 more experienced than other 2 but still..I figured between 4 shooters, I’d identify the better of the two loads.
All 4 reported insanely bad mirage from scope on 30x - I could literally see cross hairs moving at times...of course it wasn’t but it was pretty bad.
Best group of day ? 2 bloody inches...absolutely perfect in line vertical, 2 inch group straight up and down...with both 66 AND BLOODY 68 gns. Last, most experienced shooter used 26x.
I don’t understand how or why or what...the.
Now I don’t know whether to recheck action / scope screws, revisit in a week with 66 and 68 and try again, or just go back to 65.0 and work up .2 again to see wtf.

We shot a few other rifles - my 06 shot a beautiful all touching 5 shot group and a sako 222 that had an old bushnell on it, we all shot 10c pieces from a distance. No other rifles had mirage today, just the 6500 - and stupidly, once I exhausted all my 300 ammo, I wound back scope to 20x and ....... Magic’ !!! Mirage disappeared! So I learned something today lol. So frustrating - I should have known.
Looks like I really need to revisit the two loads I know previously worked...
Thoughts? Would heavy mirage account for several straight up and down strings? Yes - took chrono but it failed early on in day.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by bladeracer » 21 Apr 2020, 6:09 pm

I wouldn't bother with load development with mirage.
Mirage basically means the target is not where it appears to be due to refraction in your line of sight. It's virtually impossible to shoot a group with that.
Raising the target and your shooting position a couple meters above the ground has helped me beat mirage.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 21 Apr 2020, 6:47 pm

If you feeling mirage wind the scope down until no mirage....i can't understand why these so called experienced shooters didn't do that... apologies if they did.

Also why are you getting mirage in winter... unless the barrel is super hot.. which will explain the bad grouping
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Apr 2020, 7:03 pm

Sergeant Hartman wrote:If you feeling mirage wind the scope down until no mirage....i can't understand why these so called experienced shooters didn't do that... apologies if they did.

Also why are you getting mirage in winter... unless the barrel is super hot.. which will explain the bad grouping


Mirage ? Shimmer? I don’t know what to call it - the cross hairs were moving - like...ok, I’ll try and word this. It wasn’t mirage like desert type - perfect shooting targets off in the distance...air was 15 degrees. Barrel was quite warm to touch, so I guess the heat rising from barrel could be called? Mirage...? Target was not moving like a 40 degree day mirage - it was scope end.

Say you were settled for a shot, cross hairs crisp and on target, but you moved approx 1mm - the cross hairs would move/sway and go out of focus, come back in and out as if they were moving - this made your own focus go weird and from there it was hard to get a crisp edge on the reticle ..two people said it was like the glass was yellow, dark and moving around...IT definitely got heaps better taking x 10 out down to 20x but by then I / we had shot everything.
It might be worth mentioning that, this scope only has 1mm clearance from barrel...but then, even first shots from rest (cold) - were not consistent...so not sure.

Think I need to wipe the day and revisit exact same loads and test from there. I can’t shoot 1/2 inch one day then 2 inch a week later - nothing changed.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 21 Apr 2020, 7:25 pm

Yes mate..... could be faulty scope??

Something really dodgy going on there mate
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by bladeracer » 21 Apr 2020, 7:40 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Say you were settled for a shot, cross hairs crisp and on target, but you moved approx 1mm - the cross hairs would move/sway and go out of focus, come back in and out as if they were moving - this made your own focus go weird and from there it was hard to get a crisp edge on the reticle ..two people said it was like the glass was yellow, dark and moving around...IT definitely got heaps better taking x 10 out down to 20x but by then I / we had shot everything.


Sounds more like a parallax adjustment. Effect at the target is similar to mirage.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Stix » 21 Apr 2020, 7:45 pm

If any light is refracted closer to the scope as opposed to down at the target end it will make a huge difference...!!

3mm shift in target cos of mirage out at 200 metres is a 3 mm shift in the target, which will equate to your shot plus a total of 3mm. (plus your ability to read where the ACTUAL target is)

If the cross hairs move quarter mm at scope end from any refracted light, thats the same as having parallex not set correctly & shifting your eye just off perfect centre of the scope--which can easily result in a shift of 2" at 200... :thumbsup:

Never test at 200 in a bad mirage...if the barrel is that hot, or its heat is causing refraction of light in cool air, try a damp chux doubled over & layed between barrel & scope over barrel...thats how i cool my barrels when waiting between groups while load testing in summer...its evaporative cooing for your gun... :thumbsup:

Either that, or stop with the acid trips on range visits...unless you invite me...

Yea righto...well it looks like ive just plagerised expanded on Blades post...but i was typing while he posted...lol...honest...!! :)
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Apr 2020, 8:27 pm

Stix - from your educated perspective, whey is the clearest scope, you have witnessed at 20+ magnification?

Interestingly - I’ve googled the crap out this bushnell 6500 scope and there is not a lot of love for it at max magnification...which is one reason I purchased it.
So, I’m not writing it off, I’ll redo the load test - but I have to confess at looking at some second hand night force, leupold scopes on the usual second hand sites. It’s pissed me off today - everyone shot really well, everyone’s guns shot really well - except this 300...which previously would have at least matched the best of today...Z sorry, I mean sarge, might be right...the 300 does have some recoil...maybe something adrift. They do - from memory have a lifetime warranty, might swap out scopes and try same loads.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by marksman » 21 Apr 2020, 8:34 pm

"Think I need to wipe the day and revisit exact same loads and test from there"

good idea :thumbsup:

better conditions and more focus on its a test will help
sometimes when taking the shot on an animal you will have to decide yes or no because of problems but when testing its always no if there is a problem :drinks:
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by sungazer » 21 Apr 2020, 9:19 pm

I have a 6500 Bushnell and would rate it highly. Without seeing what your seeing through the scope it is next to impossible to give accurate advice. Was the mirage moving across the sight picture right to left or other way around? What did the overall target look like was it still a circular shape or did it appear to have wavy sides?

The scopes with a larger objective lenses will give you a smaller depth of field and you can often use the parallelex to determine at different distances what the mirage is indicating.

It could of also been a miss-adjusted parallelex and not having your eye in the same focal plane for each shot.

Parallelex and more so Mirage takes a lot of study and a lot of experience to be able to understand it and use it to your advantage and more so not get tricked by it.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 21 Apr 2020, 10:26 pm

I’ll be the first to admit I’m still learning, but I was confident I had parallax sorted and dialled from 250m to 50 to find optimum setting before going anywhere near any other settings...
The actual issue - It’s hard to explain SG but the fact we all encountered the same issue (in a round about way) does not bode well. One guy I spoke with tonight said he could have sworn the vertical reticle wasnt straight but didn’t want to say anything...
My personal issue was with reticle clarity as well as a shimmering between the reticle and target that made it hard to focus. But then once you had it focussed - if you moved even a mm, everything immediately went to poo.
3 weeks ago - I too would have (I think I’ve got a bit of a review on here somewhere) rated this scope. Everything but the last few clicks of magnification was crystal clear and it was this scope that helped me win a private competition at various distances. But even when cleaning it tonight, on anything above 20x results in a reticle shimmer - I’ll see if I can get a pic tomorrow - it’s interesting to say the least but I think the recoil has damaged something.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Stix » 21 Apr 2020, 11:41 pm

The best ive looked through is a Swaro Z6...if i had money, id have thm on most if not all my hunting outfits.

I havent seen through the 6500's, but no scope wound up to that Mag is going to look "great" in either low light, or a mirage.

Personally, i dont see how you could set the paralex on a scope accurately (using your vision for reticle movement) when your in a mirage...there is no way to tell if the movement you are testing is the mirage or your head movement.
Also, the reticle appears not as sharp as it will when not seeing through a mirage...thats just the illusion of what we see & how light works.

If the reticle was not clear, did you set the ocular correction for your eyes every time you shot it...?.if so did you do it correctly...?..& did the other guys change it...?
Im not being smart, but its hard to know what youre seeing as said above

I guess the other option is if something has come loose within the scope...I dont know how scopes are constructed these days, but in the old days the reticle were literally a wire & ive seen them "dislodged" before & appear blurry because theyve shifted within the scope.

But arent they etched these days...?...i dont know, but to me that sounds like theyre etched into glass element...in which case, i guess if an element with the etched reticle has come slightly adrift, it will make the reticle unsharp & unable to be focused sharp for you eye...

You say "reticle shimmer"...to me a shimmer is a reflection that somewhat "dances/sparkles"-like the stars-say planet Venus at night--, but the object its reflecting off of does not move--its just the atmosphere (mirage effect) causing the "shimmer/sparkle"...

If this is the case & the reticle is "shimmering", its just light hitting the etched part of the glass & reflecting off of it...ive seen that before...that coupled with the mirage from behind--like a backlit situation--may cause the reticle to appear like it "shimmering/dancing" a bit...

Thats all i got...
If the scope is mounted with a pic rail...set up another scope in seperate mounts & sight it in on the rifle...
Do a test with both--you dont need to re-zero each scope in when you put it back on the rifle, they will be on paper when you put the scope back on, so just shoot 2 groups with each in same conditions on same magnification...just dont do the test in a mirage...!!!!!
The printed results will tell you if one scope is foobarr'd...

:) :drinks:
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Norton » 22 Apr 2020, 9:45 am

Tassie, just to go back a step for a second and make sure you're not on a wild goose chase here.

When you say

TassieTiger wrote:Last time I shot this rifle, I shot a 1/2 inch group using 68gns and a friend shot a 1/4 group with 66,0 gns.


Do you mean you shot several good groups, confirming they're capable of 1/2 and 1/4 groups respectively?

Or you literally shot a single group, got 1/2 and decided it was a winner and stopped?

Not having a go. Genuinely asking for trouble shooting purposes.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 11:21 am

Fair questions.
So my previous shooting / load development centred around 65.0 to 69.0 gns going up in .3gns at a time.
I loaded 10 cartridges of each and myself and a friend took turns shooting 5 shot groups of each load increment.
He shot a great group at 66.0 as did myself and I shot a great group at 68.0 and he shot a nice group as well at that load - and that’s why I was tossing up between 66,0 and 68.0 as both loads showed promise from two shooters.
Previous to that - I had loaded 50 rounds across 65.0 to 70.0 and did same thing with bigger increments - even tested up to 72.0 but nothing came close to the 68.0’s for me and the 66’s for my friend. (Don’t tell him, but despite his age - I think he’s the better shooter at this point) but I’m catching him lol.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by marksman » 22 Apr 2020, 1:33 pm

to zero or test ideal conditions are needed that's why l start as soon as the sun is rising and am usually finished no later than 9-9.30 in the morning

how to shoot into mirage is just experience,
l really do not think your scope has an issue especially if you adjusted it when you were last out shooting good groups

from "reading mirage from Gail Mcmillan" what it is:
"you need to take a glass full of water and put a spoon in it. Look at how the spoon handle appears to bend at the point it enters the water. This is an illusion caused by the difference in the index of refraction of air and water. The variation of air temperature between you and the target causes a change in the index of refraction of the air along your sight path. This bends the light causing the image of the target to be in a different place than the actual target. If you set your rifle in a solid rest, aim it at a target and sit and watch you will see the target appear to dance around under the crosshairs, obviously the target is not moving, it is the image that is moving"
https://www.6mmbr.com/readingmirage.html

l hope this explains mirage a bit for you Tassie, l really think it was just mirage and a bad day to be testing :drinks:
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 3:02 pm

Thanks MM - as always, extremely helpful.
When we spoke about mirage on site, a couple ppl dismissed it as it was a cold day but I knew that mirage can occur from temp variants rather than dedicated heat.

One thing that has really stood out - was how stupidly foolish we all were on site RE not trusting ourselves. Everyone encountered similar things, but no one wanted to speak up in front of everyone else for fear of being seen as saying something perceived as silly (and I’m as guilty as everyone else there that day) - OMG we can be stupid creatures.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Apr 2020, 8:43 pm

Did you chronograph your test session and if you did, what sort of numbers did you get? What did your groups look like? Nice and round or some stringing?
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 9:24 pm

Chrono failed early in the day from a tikka 300 muzzle bLast. Strings were predominantly vertical with several groups almost perfectly in line.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by perentie » 23 Apr 2020, 6:55 am

Sergeant Hartman wrote:If you feeling mirage wind the scope down until no mirage....i can't understand why these so called experienced shooters didn't do that... apologies if they did.

Also why are you getting mirage in winter... unless the barrel is super hot.. which will explain the bad grouping


The mirage will still be there but you just cant see it then and allow for it.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Maxjon » 23 Apr 2020, 7:14 am

Try shooting a fullbore rifle with aperture sights, and a spotting scope, you will learn all about mirage.......only true way to shoot targets for me.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by TassieTiger » 23 Apr 2020, 7:26 am

Bullbarrel033 wrote:Try shooting a fullbore rifle with aperture sights, and a spotting scope, you will learn all about mirage.......only true way to shoot targets for me.


Forgive my ample ignorance / but why are aperture sights worse? Or is it the combination of full bore / aperture / heat ?
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CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Maxjon » 23 Apr 2020, 7:55 am

In my experience the fullbore rifle, and spotting scope combination highlighted the effects of wind and mirage so much more than a scoped rifle. Just my observations. Give me the fullbore rifle anyday for the bullseye!
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by in2anity » 23 Apr 2020, 8:47 am

Bullbarrel033 wrote:In my experience the fullbore rifle, and spotting scope combination highlighted the effects of wind and mirage so much more than a scoped rifle. Just my observations. Give me the fullbore rifle anyday for the bullseye!


Generally I agree with this. Use a spotting scope + flags to judge the conditions, then rely on the muscle memory and inherent consistency found with sling shooting to repeat the action... I do find myself to be more consistent shooting with a sling vs some form of front rest. Emphasis on consistent here (not accurate).

But to be fair, as a comparison have you done much competitive sling shooting with a scoped rifle? The reason I ask, scores are generally better for the Non-Service rifles in a Service rifle match... as you'd logically expect...
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Maxjon » 23 Apr 2020, 10:14 am

in2anity
I have not done much scoped target shooting off a sling, just seems unnatural to me. I've mostly shot Fullbore, and smallbore. Now shooting service rifles with battle sights, but it's getting hard on the eyes. I do however use a merit eyepiece iris on my glasses, couldnt shoot without it, it's a lifesaver!
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by in2anity » 23 Apr 2020, 11:01 am

Bullbarrel033 wrote:in2anity
I have not done much scoped target shooting off a sling, just seems unnatural to me. I've mostly shot Fullbore, and smallbore. Now shooting service rifles with battle sights, but it's getting hard on the eyes. I do however use a merit eyepiece iris on my glasses, couldnt shoot without it, it's a lifesaver!


Some scoped guns can sure feel odd when slung up, but some feel superb. I've shot smallbore + fullbore, and now I'm in love with service. Interesting you raised the point about battle sights - they are certainly a lot harder than the front tunnel backeting a black circle. It's just staggering what some fullbore shooters are capable of. I've shot alongside the Commonwealth palma team and FMD can they shoot (using their 155gr pills I might add) :o

Still though, what you can do with the fullbore sights you can do that (and more) with a scope. But i totally agree that estimating conditions is far better to do with a spotting scope, better still an experienced spotter sitting next to you :lol:
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Bill » 23 Apr 2020, 11:22 am

Seargant hartmann I agree :drinks:

Stix I agree we all need a good laugh, even better if itsat our own expense :thumbsup:

Tassie tiger here's a link that may help. Scroll down to dealing with a mirage for a quick solution. ;)

https://www.targettamers.com/guides/tro ... fle-scope/
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 23 Apr 2020, 1:59 pm

Well stix, mate i hardly if ever seen mirage in cold weather... maybe sunny SA is different. As most cold days are usually over cast here. Maybe it could be i have pretty decent scopes, as even with 35x/40x i hardly get mirage in winter... in summer after 11am sure i will wind down the scopes a little.

Thanks Bill for your link... not that anyone else will give you thanks
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by SCJ429 » 24 Apr 2020, 9:48 pm

I do some target shooting over 300 metres at night and in winter time it is not uncommon to see the mirage. You use it to read the wind as you cannot see any flags obviously at night.
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by perentie » 25 Apr 2020, 10:34 am

This is interesting. This guy gets 2 inch vertical at 1000 yds with a 6BR. I have a long way to go yet,
https://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html
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Re: Load development - getting lost

Post by marksman » 25 Apr 2020, 1:13 pm

your not alone there perentie :thumbsup:
Jason Baney is a very knowledgeable bloke here is another one he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEdZ7k_6-cE

good change of scenery by the way :drinks:
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