Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by on_one_wheel » 21 Aug 2020, 7:16 pm

Jarhead wrote:Hey all,

Anyone know where I an get a kilo of 1.2mm x 5mm stainless pins for less than $100 in Australia?

I can get 5 pounds from the local GS for $130. I don't need that much......


I think I bought mine from here
https://www.aussiesapphire.com.au/stain ... lishing-me
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by deye243 » 21 Aug 2020, 8:36 pm

About 6 l of water three quarters of a teaspoon of citric acid and a good squirt of Morning Fresh job done for me
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 25 Aug 2020, 6:47 pm

Wet tumbler arrived today.

The best part about it is that I can run it with the family home! Much quieter than the "vibrating bowl of headache" that it replaced.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 26 Aug 2020, 12:46 pm

I am happy with the results I am getting- though the primer pockets have some residual crud on them. I suspect they will clean up with a few wet tumbles.



One is wet tumbled- one is dry- can you tell the difference?

IMG-2319r.jpg
IMG-2319r.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 5196 times
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by marksman » 26 Aug 2020, 12:54 pm

the left are wet tumbled?
the primer pockets should clean up every time, if there are not you are not leaving them long enough
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by deye243 » 26 Aug 2020, 2:13 pm

^^ this
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Skinna » 26 Aug 2020, 2:34 pm

Left is wet.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 26 Aug 2020, 2:42 pm

Nailed it guys!

Marksman, how long do you have them in? These had 90 minutes total- although only 60 of that was after decapping.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by deye243 » 26 Aug 2020, 3:33 pm

The only down side to wet tumbling is checking every case to make sure there is no stainless steel pin in the case or the Flash whole disaster waiting to happen if there is .
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 28 Aug 2020, 9:39 pm

Marksman,

I never thought I would have brass shine envy. Holy hell those look nice! .
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by marksman » 28 Aug 2020, 10:39 pm

Jarhead wrote:Marksman,

I never thought I would have brass shine envy. Holy hell those look nice! .


mine are left in for 4 hrs, l just do it how it says to on the instructions :unknown:

l have tried a few different tricks l've heard about but went back to the instructions because it works :drinks:

when they are done l rinse in clean water then tip into a bucket of cold water and shake them out onto a towel and dry the outside of the cases, then blow them out with the compressor while wearing earmuffs, l dont have any problems with pins in flash holes ect... and the cases stay looking good for a good while
it works for me and l do a lot of cases at a time usually :drinks:
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by adamjp » 01 Sep 2020, 7:44 pm

To prevent water stains on your clean cases, put a squirt of Rinse Aid from the dishwasher in the mix.

I run the polish from Aussie Sapphire, warm water and a squirt of Dishlex Rinse Aid. All good, no acids.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 01 Sep 2020, 8:58 pm

Ok,

After a few goes at this and taking all of your good advice into consideration- I have changed the mix a little. This just fits in my 3 kg wet tumbler.

1. Armor All Wash and Wax - 1 x 6.5 Creedmoore caseful . This is a low foam detergent with a small amount of Carnuba wax to prevent cases tarnishing.
2. Citric acid powder - 1 x 22LR case - this is the main acid ingredient in Lemishine and I did not easily find a liquid version.
3. 1kg stainless steel pins (1.2mm diameter x 5mm long). The 1.2mm pin diameter should prevent pins getting stuck in the flash hole as one will fall through and two are too big to fit. This should work with both standard 2mm flashholes and Lapua's 1.5mm flashhole.
4. 1 kilo brass
5. Hot Tap water to just cover the load.

I cut back the amount of wash & was as it was way too foamy! I also stopped using the cream of tartar powder and it made on difference.

Drain after 10 minutes and refill with the same stuff again.
Run this for 3 hours. Lowest speed setting and run in one direction.
Stop, drain, separate the cases from the stainless media by pouring into a semi sieve and then taking each case out one by one, inspecting for pins in the case. (there has got to be a better way to do this!-So tedious!!! If you have found it- let us know here!!!!)
Put them all in a food dehydrator on 70deg C for 30 minutes to dry.

Enjoy!
Regards,

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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by deye243 » 01 Sep 2020, 9:32 pm

1 kilo of pins seems a bit light must be a small Tumbler i use 4 and a half kilos in mine and 300 to 400 7mm rem mag cases .
Last edited by deye243 on 01 Sep 2020, 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 01 Sep 2020, 9:33 pm

So, you are going through a lot of research and testing to improve your overall results but are you annealing your cases..??

Cleaning cases by wet tumbling with pins also does contributes to hardening so increasing spring back.

Since you have gone to lengths with all this in reloading cases you may be interested in some more research if you haven't found it from the AMP Annealing guys. In one of their articles they mention wet tumbling and it's affects... If you aren't aware of their research...

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/

To maintain consistent accuracy here, especially competition benchrest loads I anneal every reload.

Best of luck with it all.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 02 Sep 2020, 8:30 am

Deye243,

Yes it is a smalll one and rated at 3kg. I use 1 kg of bras, 1kg of pins and about 1 kg of water. That's about 50 cases of 6.5CM. Plenty for me! I will shoot about that much in one day at the range.

Apollo,

Thank you - your timing is great! Appreciate your sending the article link- I will have a read.

I have shot all of my brass twice and was just starting to think about annealing. I read somewhere that most people anneal after 3-4 firings so I was planning to do that. I have a view of what to do but not a clear plan on how I am going to do it. I will need to get organised this month though.

I found this and was thinking of getting one- made in Oz - love it!

https://www.kaseannealr.com.au/
Regards,

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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by marksman » 02 Sep 2020, 10:37 am

that kaseannealr looks great Jarhead
and made in ozzie, fathers day is coming soon :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 02 Sep 2020, 12:13 pm

I must say I'm not a fan of Flame Annealing especially the hit n miss just hold a case in the flame count to whatever and it's done. I know there are many, many people that do this method over the years. The best I found and was very close to buying was the Bench-Source Annealer setup with two torches, automated, timed etc but also not cheap.

Then I came across the AMP Annealer many years ago, at the time not much more expensive but it involved sending cases back to New Zealand to be tested and wait for the results. These days the AMP does it's own testing with one case and gives you a result. It's super quick to anneal a large batch of cases and they all come out the same so as suggested, anneal every reload. Not for everyone and it's not cheap.

AMP have done a lot of research and continue to do so. That included the initial statement that wet tumbling with pins had a significant affect on case hardness, but now I read they have revised that a bit to down size the affect but it's still there. Same as the anneal after all case prep has been done but still the way I do it. Last process before priming, powder charging and then seating a bullet is annealing.

I really don't want to remove the carbon from inside a case neck. To me it's a lube that helps with seating a bullet but also consistent neck tension and accuracy.

The information on the AMP Site to me is very helpful, especially the latest of their findings. A lot of reading but when you are achieving accuracy of better than 0.2 MOA it pays off to keep you in the top of the competition. Mine was 500m Benchrest, my aim was to achieve a 5 shot group of less than 1 inch, got close at 1.1 inches.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Sep 2020, 2:34 pm

The information on the AMP site “reads” like an advertisement for their product. As expected.

Their product may or may not be the best annealing machine on the planet, bar absolutely nothing, but simply taking their promotional “science” as gospel may not be ideal.
You’d need a steadfast, completely independent metallurgist and an associate laboratory to know what works best - I’m not even sure there is such a thing as “independent” or “unbiased” any more.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 02 Sep 2020, 4:55 pm

TassieTiger wrote:The information on the AMP site “reads” like an advertisement for their product. As expected.

Their product may or may not be the best annealing machine on the planet, bar absolutely nothing, but simply taking their promotional “science” as gospel may not be ideal.
You’d need a steadfast, completely independent metallurgist and an associate laboratory to know what works best - I’m not even sure there is such a thing as “independent” or “unbiased” any more.


Of course they are promoting their product BUT there are other Induction Annealing Machines and the information applies to all. Not many have the resources to do any testing of their annealing procedures, most just do what they think is good and go with that even if what they have done is not a good result nor perfect.

I posted to just provide some further information since Jarhead seems to be looking for the best result for accuracy he can achieve with what he is doing.

Not many people shoot national competition in the top section of accuracy either but when you do any little edge you can get helps, be it a very expensive choice. Also not many people can justify spending like $10,000 on a rifle yet alone more than one to compete at a national level. These are the people I know and shot against. I'm very proud of what I achieved as I am from the complements I received from the likes of Stuart & Annie Elliott who are not only National but Internationally known competitors. I just wish I was like 20 years younger and none of this bug was floating around so I could go and compete again before I die....
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Sep 2020, 6:06 pm

As I said Apollo - they may be fantastic machines and worth the weight in “face masks” - it’s just difficult to read their info without feeling the “angle”.

It does make for Very interesting reading and thought...

If you read the article put up a while back re the infamous “warehouse” by precision rifle - they shot .025 groupings with zero annealing and not even overly concerned with powder weight consistency.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/ ... -accuracy/
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 02 Sep 2020, 6:40 pm

From the text...

"Case Prep: He thought “tuning” a case was one of the most critical pieces of small groups, and that goes far beyond sorting, neck turning and prepping the primer pockets and flash holes. Here was his full process for case prep:

Weight sort cases
Anneal the necks with a small propane torch "

So annealing was part of it...

I'm not going to go into this any further other than say that as mentioned, the typical accuracy required by shooting short range benchrest..ie 100 & 200 yards is 0.1 MOA... Been there done that and the price of a rifle would shock most people. My 6mmPPC was built by Kelbly's for the USA International Shooting Team. A very expensive Stolle Panda Terry - Leonard composite carbon fibre laminated stock and even with limited case prep...ie 220 Russian Lapua Cases, fireformed using a very old barrel in a Remington 700 but the same chamber dimensions then first firing in my Stolle produced one hole 5 shot groups... I don't have the equipment to measure a group size other than one hole.....

At my first competition it was all about reading the wind...not like at home testing so the groups opened up.

That zero size 5 shot group got even worse at 200 yards... yes yards is what short range benchrest is.

What a pleasure it is to shoot a 6mm PPC, 22 PPC is likewise but not as accurate in real life.

Tassie Tiger, I don't want to take this further off topic but accuracy is what I love, competed and tutored a few people who went on to win their events. Love the challenge but it gets hard when you go past 70 YO and the body just doesn't want to keep up with what is required.

I love what Jarhead is doing, would also love to meet up with him some time a see if I can run circles around his 6.5 CM with one of my 6.5.47L's.

Sorry Jarhead, I've taken your topic "Off Topic".. so I'll stop here.
Last edited by Apollo on 02 Sep 2020, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 02 Sep 2020, 6:42 pm

Double post...sorry..
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Sep 2020, 7:09 pm

Apollo wrote:From the text...

"Case Prep: He thought “tuning” a case was one of the most critical pieces of small groups, and that goes far beyond sorting, neck turning and prepping the primer pockets and flash holes. Here was his full process for case prep:

Weight sort cases
Anneal the necks with a small propane torch "

So annealing was part of it...

I'm not going to go into this any further other than say that as mentioned, the typical accuracy required by shooting short range benchrest..ie 100 & 200 yards is 0.1 MOA... Been there done that and the price of a rifle would shock most people. My 6mmPPC was built by Kelbly's for the USA International Shooting Team. A very expensive Stolle Panda Terry - Leonard composite carbon fibre laminated stock and even with limited case prep...ie 220 Russian Lapua Cases, fireformed using a very old barrel in a Remington 700 but the same chamber dimensions then first firing in my Stolle produced one hole 5 shot groups... I don't have the equipment to measure a group size other than one hole.....

At my first competition it was all about reading the wind...not like at home testing so the groups opened up.

That zero size 5 shot group got even worse at 200 yards... yes yards is what short range benchrest is.

What a pleasure it is to shoot a 6mm PPC, 22 PPC is likewise but not as accurate in real life.

Tassie Tiger, I don't want to take this further off topic but accuracy is what I love, competed and tutored a few people who went on to win their events. Love the challenge but it gets hard when you go past 70 YO and the body just doesn't want to keep up with what is required.

I love what Jarhead is doing, would also love to meet up with him some time a see if I can run circles around his 6.5 CM with one of my 6.5.47L's.

Sorry Jarhead, I've taken your topic "Off Topic".. so I'll stop here.


I’m sure Jar head doesn’t mind regardless - it’s all very interesting stuff and you clearly know your stuff. No one was debating that - Based on Jars previous posts and his apparent thirst for knowledge, I’m sure if the chance arose he’d be all over it...if you can help him pick up .1 - it would save home 6 pages of maths lol.

I met a gent today who has put my name down for a closed range school that specialises in 600-1400m
Just talking to this guy - you can tell the chaff is not in with the s**t as he exampled and recounted some amazing Stories...including one where he asked his students to choose a .3 projectile for 1000m shooting based on what they had been shooting At 300m. He himself, chose the worst performing projectile - knowing that it had not settled in flight at 300 but would hold stable post that to 1000...
As he also said - after the 500m Point, the environment plays into the poi than the difference of a rifle shooting 1.5moa to .5 moa and then he reasoned how...these stories made me want to sign up immediately, as like many on here, I’m keen to learn and soak what I can, when I can...

Anyways - metallurgy is but one of the sciences that over laps with shooting...I’ll pay more attention to some of the annealing info :thumbsup:
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Apollo » 02 Sep 2020, 9:13 pm

Tassie, I'm sure this stuff away from tumbling cases belong in another topic.... so sorry to Jarhead.

Your middle paragraph Tassie I don't understand really what point you are making. Flat Base bullets are accurate to really under 300 metres, Boat Tail especially VLD types are long range bullets BUT this story of not being stable or need to wake up is also not quite true. In my view they do not wobble, twist or whatever for some distance distance. I can shoot VLD's at 100m into the same hole, nothing turns sideways or wobbles but my problem is I can't tune a load at 100m if it makes one hole so my typical testing range is 200m and I pick the conditions under which I shoot. VLD's (boat tail) bullets may not be at their best at short range and that's why they are not used in competition since the accuracy required is so tight.

I use a lot of boat tail varmint bullets for varminting even at short range and they are accurate but that's not competition shooting. When my mates come shooting with me we are after meat to eat (Rabbits) and/or pelts that aren't damaged so the story is "Head Shot's Only" and that is really hit or you miss a kill.

You mentioned Metallurgy that plus Electrical Engineering is what I did at UNI NSW after school some 50 odd years ago.... I've forgotten most of it since I took a turn and went into the Banking Industry... I also have a Diploma (means nothing) in Computer Science and held a Microsoft Systems Certificate for a number of years when I did a contract for NSW Health Dept... I'm not silly.These days I am..... :unknown:
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Sep 2020, 10:28 pm

Just touching on your reply quickly as I agree we are wandering a little - I fear I have somewhat butchered the story referred above, as I had a lot of info flowing my way in a short space of time, but from what I recall...
The entire group was asked to shoot 200 and then 300m and then told to choose their projectile for 1000m.

The projectile chosen by this gent (trainer) was a 200gn projectile for a 300win that all other students feared would be way too light in the blustery conditions., reported 15mph as explained to me. However - flags every 200m indicated fluctuations all the way out to 1000m.
Apparently - and again, I maybe butchering some of this - this Chosen 200gn projectile was shooting 4-5 inches at 300m, but the other students had shot much better groups with heavier bullets at same distance - at least moa.
Ole mate was convinced his projectile choice (Apparently new to him on the day and taken by a student as an experimental round) would hold its line better, once out to 1000 (I’m summising (if true) this gent knew more about bullet drop passed 600m then I’ll ever know).
Students then reported they shot on average 12-16 inch groups at 1000m whilst somehow - the trainer turned his 4-5 inches at 300m into 12 inch groups at 1000m. The apparent purpose of the exercise was to show that there are many more factors at play, at distance, other than rifle and shooter...but who knows...sandbagging? Better environment knowledge? Mixture of truth etc...
As I said, I’m probably butchering this significantly and I’m hoping I can get a gurnsey into this course to clarify...but from what I understand - these courses are very rare and he’s pretty picky.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 03 Sep 2020, 7:08 am

Gents,

Love it!

Apollo please don't ever feel like I want you to stop typing- I can assure you I do not- Keep sharing! Feel free to hijack any of my posts!

I watched the 20 annealed and 20 not annealed video on the amp website. Awesome!

I will be annealing my brass, with a flame. I will probably get that Aussie made annealer. The induction models look great but are way too $pendy for me.

One thing in that video that was unfamiliar was the moly applied to the inside of the case. This is the first time I have seen that done. Can anyone enlighten me as to purpose, pro/cons, pitfalls, etc.?
Regards,

Jarhead
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by goat » 27 Sep 2020, 7:13 pm

More than one way to skin a cat as always, heres my way...

I use a teaspoon of aussie sapphire burnishing compound, throw about 800 or so cases in my Rockford Arsenal timber and fill with water. Tumble for an hour, drain, then dry by tipping into a towel and rolling them around, and they are real shiny. I chuck em in a plastic tub and they are as good 6 months later as the day I put them in there.
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by marksman » 27 Sep 2020, 7:35 pm

Jarhead wrote:Gents,

Love it!

Apollo please don't ever feel like I want you to stop typing- I can assure you I do not- Keep sharing! Feel free to hijack any of my posts!

I watched the 20 annealed and 20 not annealed video on the amp website. Awesome!

I will be annealing my brass, with a flame. I will probably get that Aussie made annealer. The induction models look great but are way too $pendy for me.

One thing in that video that was unfamiliar was the moly applied to the inside of the case. This is the first time I have seen that done. Can anyone enlighten me as to purpose, pro/cons, pitfalls, etc.?


a more consistent smoother bullet seating and release, there are more than one way to skin a cat though and this is just one :thumbsup:
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Re: Wet tumbling- what is the Australian magic mix?

Post by Jarhead » 28 Sep 2020, 6:13 am

Thanks Marksman!
Regards,

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