Is Australia heading for an AMMO/Reloading shortage?

[bigrich]

The US has been flying in millions of rounds a day into Ukraine for the past month.

One thing that will happen, especially if Russia gets disconnected from SWIFT, is that Russian ammo exports to the world commercial markets will stop. In the US for instance, that is a significant part of the US ammo supply on shelves for target shooters and plinkers.

Also if this thing evolves more, then I would expect more of a squeeze.

it sounds bleak . if it gets worse, i wouldn't be supprised if some gun shops close

[JimTom]

You just have to have a look online at the various gun shops and see how much of their usual inventory is not in stock, and quite a few items have no estimate as to when they may become available again. Sad state of affairs indeed.

[wrenchman]

Russian ammo stopped last year

[rc42]

The ability to sign up for new import contracts for Russian ammo into the the US stopped last year but existing agreements were allowed to run to completion. This will likely stop as part of the sanctions against Russia as they will probably affect all imports.

Excluding Russia from the SWIFT system is not likely to be approved, UK and Canada are all for it but the fall out wouldn't affect them, Russia supplies around 40% of the gas used by Europe and SWIFT is used to pay for it, if payment stops the gas flow probably would too and that would hit Europe hard, especially in winter.

I don't think we import much Russian ammo into Australia, I was hoping it would increase as the US market reduces but that seems unlikely now and larger manufacturers are probably going to find new military contracts diverting their output away from the civilian markets.

[Oldbloke]

IMO the availability of some powders manufactured by ADI will improve very soon.

[JimTom]

IMO the availability of some powders manufactured by ADI will improve very soon.

One can only hope that’s the case mate. Going off their statement in the website there should be enough of the standard powders to go around which is all good for rifle shooters however leaves the poor old pistol shooter a bit short.

[Oldbloke]

IMO the availability of some powders manufactured by ADI will improve very soon.

One can only hope that’s the case mate. Going off their statement in the website there should be enough of the standard powders to go around which is all good for rifle shooters however leaves the poor old pistol shooter a bit short.

OK, just read the latest news. Does sound promising.

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/2021/12 ... nt-update/

[bladeracer]

IMO the availability of some powders manufactured by ADI will improve very soon.

One can only hope that’s the case mate. Going off their statement in the website there should be enough of the standard powders to go around which is all good for rifle shooters however leaves the poor old pistol shooter a bit short.

OK, just read the latest news. Does sound promising.

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/2021/12 ... nt-update/

It sounds like they're on track with what they were telling us last year, which is good news.

[bladeracer]

Just got a call and scored two cases of CCI Standard Velocity, things are looking up.
The dealer was sufficiently confident of supply that I finally cracked open my last case last week, so that's a big relief.

[Marlin44]

CCI standard is a staple for most shops, it should be OK for rest of year.
I spoke with industry folks that attended SHOT and they said primer situation there is grim. 2 manufacturers are not taking orders because they have 10 years worth of orders on books already. Remington primer plant has started production BUT is only 20% capacity. Hornady is making their own primers but again they can't produce enough even for their own ammo line.
Going off US figures, When primers come back into Oz they will be pricey.

[wanneroo]

It's clear the US will need that primer plant that is opening soon in Texas. CCI, Remington, etc. simply can't supply the market with what it needs.

Russia actually supplied a substantial amount of the world's primers and clearly that is off the market now.

[bladeracer]

CCI standard is a staple for most shops, it should be OK for rest of year.
I spoke with industry folks that attended SHOT and they said primer situation there is grim. 2 manufacturers are not taking orders because they have 10 years worth of orders on books already. Remington primer plant has started production BUT is only 20% capacity. Hornady is making their own primers but again they can't produce enough even for their own ammo line.
Going off US figures, When primers come back into Oz they will be pricey.

I haven't been able to get CCI SV down here for eighteen months, nobody had it. The dealer received six cases, but it took a month to get here from Brisbane due to the courier issues.

Because of component shortages I've cut back shooting centrefire and concentrating on rimfire. But I'm ploughing through an awful lot of it.
I have enough primers and powders to see out a few thousand rounds per year for the next ten years without any issues, a bit of judicious rationing could double that timeframe without hardship.

[gunnnie]

Only promising if you're not a pistol shooter or use Trailboss/APS powders in your pistol cartridge chambered rifles!
A lot of Aussie comp pistol shooters will be feeling the pinch by mid-late 2022' Well, those who have stocked up anyways! Many others are feeling the pinch now!

[bladeracer]

Only promising if you're not a pistol shooter or use Trailboss/APS powders in your pistol cartridge chambered rifles!
A lot of Aussie comp pistol shooters will be feeling the pinch by mid-late 2022' Well, those who have stocked up anyways! Many others are feeling the pinch now!

Yep. I haven't tried rifle powders in 12ga yet as I have a very good supply of pistol and shotgun powders for my own use. I never will understand the person that waits to buy ammo until they day they want to use it. I bet they only put enough fuel in their car for the trip they're making, no reason to leave the tank half full if you're not going anywhere. Probably don't even keep spare batteries

I have tried rifle powders in pistol cartridges just to see if it's viable for pistol shooters that need to make velocity levels. I found it impossible in 9mm (very small capacity) unless you duplex load with a faster powder. So it will give you significantly more ammo out of your kilo of pistol powder, but doesn't do away with it entirely. It would be helpful if the clubs simply lowered the Power Factor levels in the interim, but you would likely need to replace recoil springs to get semi-autos to cycle on rifle powders.

I should try some AR2206H in the 12ga just to see if it works at all.

[Oldbloke]

I should try some AR2206H in the 12ga just to see if it works at all.

Your game

[bladeracer]

I should try some AR2206H in the 12ga just to see if it works at all.

Your game

Always happy to learn new stuff

[Oldbloke]

Well, you will be compressing a powder with an 1 oz load in front of it that isn't really intended to be compresses in that way. And shot guns operate at lower pressures. Say, 10,000psi compared to rifles 55,000psi

Huge difference in burn rate too.

No expert here, but I'd want to do a lot of home work before I considered what your suggesting.

[bladeracer]

Well, you will be compressing a powder with an 1 oz load in front of it that isn't really intended to be compresses in that way. And shot guns operate at lower pressures. Say, 10,000psi compared to rifles 55,000psi

Huge difference in burn rate too.

No expert here, but I'd want to do a lot of home work before I considered what your suggesting.

I wouldn't be starting with one-ounce loads, and rifle powders do indeed like compression. Even Trailboss that ADI proclaims "should never be compressed" works just fine in 12ga., likewise they say to never reduce AR2206H (H4895) below 60% of "maximum charges", but I routinely run it at ridiculously low levels with zero issues

Yes, I know that guns are only rated to 12,000psi (half the pressure of .22LR), but I've shot a lot of reduced rifle loads that don't make that much pressure, sometimes the bullet barely drops out of the muzzle.

I did the experiments with rifle powder in 9mm because I couldn't find _any_ data online anywhere of anybody having tried it before, not even with exploding guns, which would surely get mentioned somewhere if it were an issue. Packing as much powder as it is possible to fit in the case, compressing it as much as humanly possible, and it still burns too slowly to make good velocity. It makes a usable cartridge certainly, but not a useful one. You need more barrel length to burn the powder.

In .410 I would expect similar due to the small bore diameter, but with better ability to create pressure due to the longer barrel. 12ga will be different as it will be very hard to get pressure to build fast enough in a rapidly expanding three-quarter-inch-diameter combustion chamber, you're almost burning the powder unconfined. It'd be like trying to generate power in an engine with a one-inch bore and a fifteen-inch stroke.

I do a lot of homework before messing about

[Oldbloke]

ADI, like all powder manufacturers are very conservative. They build very large safety margins into all their data. But if they don't recommend a powder for a particular use, or there is no other very similar data I won't do it. Take my word for it. It can go very bad fast.

One flash and your ash.

Good luck with your endeavours.

[bladeracer]

I am aware and have seen the ramifications of experimentation.

ADI, like all powder manufacturers are very conservative. They build very large safety margins into all their data. But if they don't recommend a powder for a particular use, or there is no other very similar data I won't do it. Take my word for it. It can go very bad fast.

One flash and your ash.

Good luck with your endeavours.

[dnedative]

Rifle powder in a shotgun wont do anything, at the very best you will get a bloop and maybe get the shot and wad halfway up the barrel.
Combustion chamber in a shotgun is the same as a snub nose revolver, you about 1 3/4" to get it all said and done before you run out of compression.


You can still buy black power btw

[bladeracer]

Rifle powder in a shotgun wont do anything, at the very best you will get a bloop and maybe get the shot and wad halfway up the barrel.
Combustion chamber in a shotgun is the same as a snub nose revolver, you about 1 3/4" to get it all said and done before you run out of compression.


You can still buy black power btw

I think we can make enough pressure to poke it out the muzzle, but I'm not sure we can get usable velocity even with relatively light loads, like half-ounce, but the only way to know is to try it.

I have Black but I haven't tried it in 9mm as yet. Do you reckon it might be viable to cycle a semi-auto?

[rc42]

A 9mm round with magnum primer, packed full with a compressed load of 4F and with a 147gn projectile at maximum OAL will make a weak but usable round that will cycle a Beretta 92FS (most of the time).
Huge fireball and lots of smoke to make nearby shooters cough, choke and shout WTF (those are all positives in my opinion) and accuracy out to 25m is passable, beyond that there's a lot of drop due to low muzzle velocity.

In 38/357 a compressed load of 4F is even better (more fun) with larger powder volume and heavier projectiles it gets close to normal working pressures. Filthy dirty stuff though and all black powder loads will choke up the barrel rifling and you'll be shooting smooth bore pistols after not many shots. The deposits are also highly corrosive and a pig to clean if you don't get them soon.

Overall, worth the trouble for the fireworks show but you wouldn't want to do it every time you shoot.

[bladeracer]

A 9mm round with magnum primer, packed full with a compressed load of 4F and with a 147gn projectile at maximum OAL will make a weak but usable round that will cycle a Beretta 92FS (most of the time).
Huge fireball and lots of smoke to make nearby shooters cough, choke and shout WTF (those are all positives in my opinion) and accuracy out to 25m is passable, beyond that there's a lot of drop due to low muzzle velocity.

In 38/357 a compressed load of 4F is even better (more fun) with larger powder volume and heavier projectiles it gets close to normal working pressures. Filthy dirty stuff though and all black powder loads will choke up the barrel rifling and you'll be shooting smooth bore pistols after not many shots. The deposits are also highly corrosive and a pig to clean if you don't get them soon.

Overall, worth the trouble for the fireworks show but you wouldn't want to do it every time you shoot.

Yep, that's why I haven't bothered trying it

[rc42]

I've tried slower powders in 9mm, 38 and 357 too, with ADI's AR2205 being the fastest and AR2207 being the next fastest they make and currently still available in some places.

The results for 9mm are that they are all too slow to cycle a semi auto, duplex loads work nicely but it always has to be a compressed load to keep the fast powder next to the primer. I've found 0.5gn APS350 followed by 7.0gn AR2205 with a 147gn Berry's seated to a compressed 1.16" OAL to be the best duplex load I've created, it's a warm load with great consistency in my Beretta, primer type makes no difference for this load. A similar load using slower AR2207 as the packing powder needs about 1gn of APS350 and using air as the second component (as most do) it needs about 3.0gn of APS350.

For 38/357 in handguns there is load data for AR2205 and usually a little unburned powder in shorter barrels, with AR2207 there's a lot more unburned powder but I've found a 16.4gn load (full case and compressed) in .357 with magnum primer and a 180gn projectile makes a hot and consistent load in my 10" barrel Thompson Contender, in fact it's now my 'go to' load for metallic silhouette.

Shotgun - haven't tried any shotshell reloading yet and I don't expect I ever will as it will be too expensive when powder returns. The test results would be interesting but I'd expect slower powder to be useless unless duplex loaded. Another concern would be that experts claim that load recipies for shotshell should be followed exactly as there's no room for error with the low maximum pressures involved. For rifle powder only I don't think that's an issue as I would expect it to be too weak to be usable but duplex powder would require slow and careful work up.

[bladeracer]

I've tried slower powders in 9mm, 38 and 357 too, with ADI's AR2205 being the fastest and AR2207 being the next fastest they make and currently still available in some places.

The results for 9mm are that they are all too slow to cycle a semi auto, duplex loads work nicely but it always has to be a compressed load to keep the fast powder next to the primer. I've found 0.5gn APS350 followed by 7.0gn AR2205 with a 147gn Berry's seated to a compressed 1.16" OAL to be the best duplex load I've created, it's a warm load with great consistency in my Beretta, primer type makes no difference for this load. A similar load using slower AR2207 as the packing powder needs about 1gn of APS350 and using air as the second component (as most do) it needs about 3.0gn of APS350.

For 38/357 in handguns there is load data for AR2205 and usually a little unburned powder in shorter barrels, with AR2207 there's a lot more unburned powder but I've found a 16.4gn load (full case and compressed) in .357 with magnum primer and a 180gn projectile makes a hot and consistent load in my 10" barrel Thompson Contender, in fact it's now my 'go to' load for metallic silhouette.

Shotgun - haven't tried any shotshell reloading yet and I don't expect I ever will as it will be too expensive when powder returns. The test results would be interesting but I'd expect slower powder to be useless unless duplex loaded. Another concern would be that experts claim that load recipies for shotshell should be followed exactly as there's no room for error with the low maximum pressures involved. For rifle powder only I don't think that's an issue as I would expect it to be too weak to be usable but duplex powder would require slow and careful work up.

I think of AR2205 as a pistol powder anyway. There is some AR2207 around but as pistol shooters start using it I expect it to dry up very quickly.

Experts do claim that for shotshells, but I have paid zero attention to their concerns, my shotshell loading was learned from Demolition Range and Taofledermaus

[wanneroo]

I visited a gun store yesterday and they still had primers on the shelf. CCI #41, Winchester primers in SP, SR, LP and LR. They were $10-$11 a sleeve of 100. About triple what I paid before all this started. I went ahead and bought 500 #41s just to add into the stock because the world is so unpredictable these days.

Ammo selection was still sparse and expensive. There was a selection of powder and bullets but a little pricey.

I think it's going to be a long time before things straighten out.

[Bugman]

Just a bit off the original post, but my mate is hanging out for certain model S&W and the agent here and S&W in the states will not reply as to when they "may" be available. It would appear this type of matter is in the same category as ammo and reloading supplies.
The world is getting tighter and more confusing then ever.

[rc42]

The first examples of new pricing (or maybe just gouging) are appearing here in Australia.
How about CCI 500 or Federal small pistol primers for AUD 170 per 1,000 or AUD 20 per 100?

https://www.horsleyparkgunshop.com.au/c ... tol-primer

[Bugman]

The first examples of new pricing (or maybe just gouging) are appearing here in Australia.
How about CCI 500 or Federal small pistol primers for AUD 170 per 1,000 or AUD 20 per 100?

https://www.horsleyparkgunshop.com.au/c ... tol-primer

If that is the case, then I guess I will have to deal with it and "budget" the types of matches and the frequency I shoot them...sigh